Dallas Morning News - 2011 Top Courses in Texas

[Greg Tallman]

Boot Ranch was once owned (briefly) by the same guy as Diamante here in Cabo and after Lehman's demise he had to walk from 2 or 3 developments in the US and focus on Diamante alone.

Additionally Boot Ranch may be 2 or it may be 10 but it is 100% Jim Lipe though Jim would likely take the high road and give Sutton some credit... due or not.

[Randy Thompson]

Randy,

Interesting that you think a drop from 2 to 10 is "sharp." I don't think so in a general sense.

The system is a bit different, too. We are only allowed to rank 3 courses as tens (one of the top three courses in TX) and maybe 5 each for 9.5, 9, etc. It is actually very hard to make the top 3 courses.

Also, the panel is less than 200 strong and the averages tend to lump stuff together. It seems it would only take a few of those panelists who obviously gave it a ten to reduce it to 9 or less because of conditions to drop it to 10th overall.

Thats the info I was looking for, now that makes sence. Thanks! Is the 200 list public where new clubs could send out invitation for free golf to the raters and follow up with a steak dinner and maybe some bull balls?? LOL

[Randy Thompson]

Boot Ranch was once owned (briefly) by the same guy as Diamante here in Cabo and after Lehman's demise he had to walk from 2 or 3 developments in the US and focus on Diamante alone.

Additionally Boot Ranch may be 2 or it may be 10 but it is 100% Jim Lipe though Jim would likely take the high road and give Sutton some credit... due or not.

I feel all pro branding names deserve some credit..so lets give 99.9 to Jim and for the benifit of the doubt...  .1 percent to HAL! All those in favor say...I,     I

[Greg Tallman]

Boot Ranch was once owned (briefly) by the same guy as Diamante here in Cabo and after Lehman's demise he had to walk from 2 or 3 developments in the US and focus on Diamante alone.

Additionally Boot Ranch may be 2 or it may be 10 but it is 100% Jim Lipe though Jim would likely take the high road and give Sutton some credit... due or not.

I feel all pro branding names deserve some credit..so lets give 99.9 to Jim and for the benifit of the doubt...  .1 percent to HAL! All those in favor say...I,     I

Can't do it. Jim deerves to be in the limelight for some of the great work he has done over the years. Taking a back seat to Jack is one thing but Sutton? 

 

[Lou_Duran]

Wasn´t boot ranch number two last year...now number ten?? They seem to change a lot from year to year...anybody got any ideas why? Jeff, any insight???

I should have caught the error earlier, but I've been informed that Boot Ranch was rated # 8 in last year's DMN's list, and #3 in the prior two years.  Changes in the list can be the result of a number of things including new courses, renovations, changes in financial conditions affecting  operations, more rater input, etc.  I would not bet against Boot Ranch in the future.  I also await the re-opening of Spanish Oaks, which, I think, has a chance to compete among Texas's top courses.

[Sam Morrow]

Spanish Oaks is probably a top 20 course, of course I wouldn't put the #5 course in my top 20. Does anyone have the entire list of 100?

[mike_beene]

Sam ,I have the entire list but not the energy to post it.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou, et al:

How does a place like Whispering Pines -- which is consistently rated #1 by the Dallas Morning News not get rated AT ALL for any top 100 position -- even when Dallas National and Colonial, are both rated ?

Are the national raters just THAT blind or what ?

[Kirk Gill]

On a recent trip to Austin, the only course I was able to play was the University of Texas Golf Club, designed by Bechtol/Russell. I had a great time with my host, but was not blown away by the course. Any opinions?

[Matt_Ward]

Kirk:

That begs the question -- what were you expecting ?

[mike_beene]

maybe from a national rating perspective it is just not easy to get to Whispering.Maybe being closed in the summer hurts how many people see it.Difficult to see anyone putting Dallas National in same league as WP.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You didn't answer the question directly -- how can DN and Colonial be rated that far ahead of WP in the national golf mags but when the state pub like Dallas Morning News weighs in -- WP commands the top position. Are the national raters really that far out of touch when compared to the folks within the Lone Star State ?

[Greg Clark]

Matt,

As Mike mentioned Whispering Pines has a limited playing season, and I believe getting enough raters there has probably been an issue in the past.  However, it is moving up the Golfweek Modern ratings with a bullet.  It looks like the course was finally rated by enough people to qualify by 2010 as it appeared on that list at #45.  It moved up to #32 on the 2011 Best Modern list.

I haven't played it yet, but hope to get out there this year.  I believe I like Dallas National a bit more than Mike, but certainly many down here view Whispering Pines the better track.

[mike_beene]

Evidently.The Dallas News panel is represented by several here who could better answer this.Some of the national publications put Dallas National pretty high.I think finding a hill in Dallas overwhelms their senses.

[mike_beene]

Greg,I like Dallas National a lot and find the whole set punt be a lot of fun.It is a top course,but to me it is not a Whispering Pines or Brook Hollow.It probably is better compared to the hill country courses.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Matt et al...
I think with Dallas Ntaional and the likes of GDigest you have a situation similar to that with The Alotian..alot of high dollar high profile ,members who take raters as guests etc....as such it gets more exposure, plus simply easier to get to and thus more rating opportinities.
But  as a golf course there is no doubt Whispering is a top 50 in the NATION golf course and will get there over time.

As such its national recognition is not quite there yet...similar to Rock Creek perhaps in that it suffers from location rather than content on a national basis.

[Trey Kemp]

Sam, here is the rest of the list.

51. The Houstonian Golf & CC - Richmond
52. Mira Vista Country Club - Fort Worth
53. Bent Tree Country Club - Dallas
54. The Rawls Course - Lubbock
55. Dallas Country Club - Dallas

56. Traditions Club at Texas A&M - Bryan
57. Deerwood Country Club - Kingwood
58. The Tribute - The Colony
59. Horseshoe Bay Resort, Applerock - Horseshoe Bay
60. Dallas Athletic Club, Gold Course - Dallas

61. Stonebriar CC, Country Club Course - Frisco
62. Memorial Park Golf Course - Houston
63. Riverhill Country Club - Kerrville
64. Stonebriar Resort, Fazio Course - Frisco
65. Bentwater Country Club, Miller Course - Lake Conroe

66. Horseshoe Bay Resort, Slick Rock - Horseshoe Bay
67. Golf Club of Texas - San Antonio
68. Cowboys Golf Club - Grapevine
69. Texas Star Golf Club - Euless
70. Lubbock Country Club - Lubbock

71. Blackhorse Golf Club, North Course - Cypress
72. Barton Creek, Palmer Course - Spicewood
73. Resort Course at La Cantera - San Antonio
74. Lantana Golf Club - Lantana
75. University of Texas Golf Club - Austin

76. The Cascades - Tyler
77. Augusta Pines Golf Club - Spring
78. The Woodlands CC, Player Course - The Woodlands
79. Wichita Falls Country Club - Wichita Falls
80. Tierra Verde Golf Club - Arlington

81. Brackenridge Park Golf Course - San Antonio
82. The Club at Sonterra, North Course - San Antonio
83. Golf Club of Dallas - Dallas
84. The Quarry - San Antonio
85. The Cliffs Resort, Possum Kingdom - Graford

86. Cypresswood Golf Club, Tradition - Spring
87. Blackhorse, South Course - Cypress
88. Pecan Valley Golf Course - San Antonio
89. Pine Forest Country Club - Houston
90. Las Colinas Country Club - Irving

91. Stonebrodge Ranch, Hills Course - McKinney
92. Ridglea Country Club, South Course - Fort Worth
93. Gleneagles Country Club, Queens Course - Plano
94. The Clubs of Kingwood, Island - Humble
95. Palmer Course at La Cantera - San Antonio

96. The Clubs of Kingwood, Forest - Humble
97. Gleneagles Country Club, Kings Course - Plano
98. Ridgewood Country Club - Waco
99. Panther Trail Golf Course - The Woodlands
100. Diamondback Golf Club - Abilene

[Lou_Duran]

Lou, et al:

How does a place like Whispering Pines -- which is consistently rated #1 by the Dallas Morning News not get rated AT ALL for any top 100 position -- even when Dallas National and Colonial, are both rated ?

Are the national raters just THAT blind or what ?

Matt,

I can't speak for national raters, but I was turned on to (that doesn't look right) WP many years ago by a fomer GCAer from Michigan.  David Wigler was/is (?) on a national rating panel and took some extra time during a business trip in Texas to play the course.  He was blown away with the course, and urged me to see it and get others to do so as well.  Andy Hodson- the then head pro at WP and, in my opinion, one of the most oustanding club professionals I've had the pleasure to meet- hosted me, another GCAer, and a friend (a top Houston amateur) in the fall of 2002.  Our foursome of players with very different abilities and styles found a rather wet course, but we could see its great attributes from the outset.  I've played it a couple of more times since, the last in late 2005, a drought year, when the course was firm and fast at its full potential.   Distance, split seasons, and the club's disposition to accepting outside play during certain times no doubt have an impact on rater visits.       

[Kirk Gill]

Kirk:

That begs the question -- what were you expecting ?

Ok, I didn't go into much detail. I will expound a bit.

I'd played Dallas National the day before, and enjoyed the course a great deal. I frankly have not played a lot of private club golf, and so each opportunity is both appreciated and perhaps magnified a bit, if you can understand what I'm saying. I had high expectations, and at Dallas National I felt like the course lived up to those expectations. It' wouldn't be my favorite course to play for a number of reasons, mostly related to the fact that I found it to be very difficult, but I enjoyed the greens, and because it was late in the season the rough had been mowed much shorter than normal, so getting around wasn't so brutal, and it never became a slog.

The UT Golf Club was easier, and I scored better, but there were fewer memorable holes. I enjoyed myself, as I said, but it felt like a distinct step down from the experience I'd had the day before. I'm just curious about how others feel about the course. I'll go through the few photos I took during the round, and perhaps post a few.

[Lou_Duran]

Kirk:

That begs the question -- what were you expecting ?

Ok, I didn't go into much detail. I will expound a bit.

I'd played Dallas National the day before, and enjoyed the course a great deal. I frankly have not played a lot of private club golf, and so each opportunity is both appreciated and perhaps magnified a bit, if you can understand what I'm saying. I had high expectations, and at Dallas National I felt like the course lived up to those expectations. It' wouldn't be my favorite course to play for a number of reasons, mostly related to the fact that I found it to be very difficult, but I enjoyed the greens, and because it was late in the season the rough had been mowed much shorter than normal, so getting around wasn't so brutal, and it never became a slog.

The UT Golf Club was easier, and I scored better, but there were fewer memorable holes. I enjoyed myself, as I said, but it felt like a distinct step down from the experience I'd had the day before. I'm just curious about how others feel about the course. I'll go through the few photos I took during the round, and perhaps post a few.

Your take on these two courses is similar to mine.  DN is by far the more complete course with great balance.  Both are on difficult sites, but I think the architects incorporated the forced carries and awkward parts better at DN.  DN can be brutal when it gets firm and fast with a strong wind.  The greens can be extremely difficult when they get much about 10', which happens a lot (or so I'm told).

I suspect that when the wind blows the same is true of UTGC, particularly with the tighter course boundaries and the hazards that must be traversed.  I'm not sure that it is that much easier, but I've only played it once.   

[Sam Morrow]

I have not played Dallas National but I've played Whispering Pines a couple of times. I think there are several things keeping people away from playing Whispering Pines, what I do know is that if enough people got to see the golf course they would see a very special place that would probably rate favorably with many of America's best modern courses.

[mike_beene]

I am not trying to put Dallas National down as it is really nice,but trying to emphasize just how good I think Whispering is. one thing WP has is good width,kind of an Augusta look without the hills being so steep plus the sandy Pinehurst 2 feel.Lou once commented that the back nine routing gets a little jumbled,and I assume that refers to the back to back threes which require a detour walk around a lake and then a backtrack.A bridge in 15 would about cure this.To be fair,you have to look away from the fake waterfall on 18.

[Randy Thompson]

Can someobdy explain why Chet Williams gets so much credit compared to all the other senior design associates associated with other Nicklaus design projects. Most hire Nicklaus for the branding name and milk it for every drop they can in the marketing campaign. I have never seen in any other of his designs, where the senior associate gets partial credit. Sometimes you can see stuff about whispering where they just give credit to Chet Williams with out even mentioning NDG. Any light that could be shed would be appreciated.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

To be fair,you have to look away from the fake waterfall on 18.

18 is a disaster.

[Sam Morrow]

I can see the jumbling comment and as for 18 I wish it would be taken out, anything would be better.