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TEPaul

Frightening hole?
« on: February 01, 2002, 03:42:56 AM »
What the most frightening hole in the world for a good golfer?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2002, 04:34:24 AM »
Tom:

I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for (general vs. specific) but I'll assume a couple of examples will serve to get your thread started.

Most of the "buzz" that I read involves the Road Hole - partly because it's true and partly, I suspect, because it's a PC thing to say.  I also hear numerous references to #18 at Doral.

There must be a zillion others.

If you were looking for general descriptive characteristics, my answer would be "it depends" (way to take a stand, Chip).  You'd probably get 99 different answers for every 100 good players you asked.

Personally, Im scared to death of any hole that requires intelligent thought, good ball striking and a solid short game - I might as well just take bogey and go to the next tee.

CO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2002, 04:36:21 AM »
12th at Augusta National
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Paul Turner

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2002, 05:02:08 AM »
The 5th at Royal Worlington and Newmarket.  It's profiled here in the course section.

Quote
"its short hole to which the eleventh at St Andrews is child's play"  Bernard Darwin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2002, 05:57:49 AM »
17th at TPC Sawgrass.  

I've seen some of the most tentative swings from expert golfers on a little 130 yard shot to a large green.  

It just goes to prove that the best way to "defend against par" is through psychological terror.  Appearances DO matter!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2002, 06:05:44 AM »
As long as we're doing specific holes, Manele Bay's #11 is 180-200 yard shot across a 200 foot gorge with crashing surf below.  You can bail out and play for 4 but if you go right at it, it's pretty exciting.

I suspect Cypress Point #16 will get a lot of votes - deservedly so.  However, at Cypress, the bail out is shorter than the scary route to the green.  At Manele Bay, the safe play is actually a bit longer than the direct shot across the gorge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2002, 06:20:32 AM »
ANGC #12 and TPC #17 are great examples of short terror holes for good golfers.  Cypress #16 above is a must on this list, as should be Pine Valley #5 for long par 3's.  I think the peninsula par 3 at Robert Trent Jones during the President's Cup scared a bunch of them.  Other peninsula holes that aren't par 3's give them the jitters as well like #17 at Congressional and the one at Hazeltine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2002, 06:24:04 AM »
Tom:

Not sure what you mean by "good" golfer, but when I'm playing golf at my ability (about 7-8 hcp), the one famous hole that truly scares me is #5 at Pine Valley.  Almost everywhere else on the course I'm conscious of the fact that that fairways are actually fairly wide.  But, taking a real shot at that green, makes me nervous that disaster will strike.

Honestly, the last time I played the hole, I deliberately hit short of the green as a means of dealing with my anxiety.
Kind of wimpy to lay up on a par 3, but I wanted to take anything other than bogey out of the occasion and therefore wound up making just that - a 4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Bryan_Pennington

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2002, 06:26:46 AM »
I've only had the opportunity to play the course twice, but the tee shot on #9 at Turnberry Ailsa (from the tips) is very intimidating.  When our foursome played the hole into a fairly stiff wind, we only had 1 of 4 clear the water (and just barely).  Even if you clear the water (cove), you still will have 190-210 for your second (blind) shot.  Great hole with all the visual "fear" factors.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2002, 06:35:51 AM »
Any 18th hole where you need a par to shoot 59, 69, 79, 89, 99 (take your pick).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2002, 06:39:26 AM »
Tom...

The honest answer would be...1) any 18th hole when you are in contention in a tourney. 2) To borrow from Lee Trevino, "Any 18th hole when the match is all square in a $50 nassau and you only have $20 in your pocket."

Other than the above, I personally don't find any holes "frightening", but there are definitely holes I don't feel comfortable playing. I'm sure you know what I mean...standing on the tee, particular holes just don't fit your "minds eye".  Also, water hazards on holes(except TPC #17) don't bother me as much as holes with OB stakes tight in play.

I would also agree with Mike Cirba, TPC #17, that particular water hole has no bail out area. I think for a good player that would be the scariest type of hole. The penalty for a missed shot is very severe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman (Guest)

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2002, 06:40:15 AM »
I know of a good golfer who birdied #5 at PVGC every day of the Crump Cup one year, so it can't be that hard!

What hole is most frightening to a good golfer is the one that exposes his or her weaknesses and exploits it the most.  Weak driver?  different hole from a modest iron player or poor putter, no?

A par 3 has the least margin for error so maybe it is a 3.  

How about #11 Shinnecock in a 3-club crosswind?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2002, 06:57:19 AM »
I'm not real sure what I meant either but for now let's just say a hole that architecturally frightens even the really good player, even the touring pro the most. Let's even take out of the equation things like being in contention and all the rest.

One that seems to come to my mind although I've never seen it is that par 3 at Kiawah that absolutely gave the Ryder Cup pros fits!

Don't really know whether it happened to be because of excessively windy conditions or just the hole itself, but in my memory I have never seen tour players screw up that badly on any hole anywhere and also very much attempt at the very most to play a hole unbelievably conservatively.

There has to be a lot in all that somehow for that hole's frightening architecture! That's the hole in my recollection that seemed to give extremely good players extreme pause!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

golfarc

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2002, 06:58:16 AM »

The 17th at TPC sawgrass is terror personified.  But for absolute fright, the 17th at Secession scares me more.  Smaller target, usually more wind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2002, 08:13:03 AM »
redanman:  the tee shot on 11 at Shinnecock pales in scariness to the shot from long and left.  It gets even more frightening your 2nd and 3rd try.   ;)

MANY great thoughts in this thread.  But imagine playing 16Cypress with anything on the line and you NEED a 3... damn that's a butt-puckering tee shot even there in a "fun"
round... I shudder to imagine playing that in competition.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2002, 08:14:28 AM »
The 6th at the Stadium course at PGA West is right there.  Even with a huge green at 240 yards or there isn't a lot of miss hit allowed.

After watching the coverage from Royal Melbourne last night, I'd say the 6th on the composite course might be right there.  Watched Els, Campbell and Parry hit 3 good tee shots in the fairway and get a par and 2 doubles and even the par for Els was a struggle.  The only really bad shot from any of them was Parry's second.

What is the par 3 where David Eger layed up a bunch of times in some tournament a year or two ago?  If it scares him, I'd hate to think how I would play it.

I remember laying up with a wedge when all I had to the green was a 7-iron on the 12th at Princeville's Prince course, because I couldn't see how I could hit the green and with water on three sides there was no other choice.

Also the 17th at Trump's course in Florida where the LPGA players had fits might be one that scares a lot of them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2002, 08:19:19 AM »
Try the par three 9th on the New Course in bad weather, the Eden on the left OB and 'umps and 'ollows on thre right full of rabbit scrapes. I've seen a twelve taken there in the Medal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2002, 08:59:14 AM »
That is scary, Bob.

By the way, it must have been discussed in here before, but put the New anywhere else other than where it is, adjacent to the Old, and wouldn't people rave about it?  I've often called it one of the more underrated courses I've ever played.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2002, 09:35:10 AM »
I love the New.

TH

How do you think we'd think about the New and the Old if the New started and ended on Pilmour Place and the Old was out in the boonies?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2002, 09:36:22 AM »
A few thoughts -- some on Tom's point, some not:

(1) To me, the word "frightening" is not quite right.

Possibly, a hard hole "frightens" some people. But not me -- and, I truly hope, not many players.

There's no machismo in what I'm saying. It's just that I've failed so many times, in so many ways, on so many golf courses -- and lived to tell about it (if you're willing to listen!) -- that "fearsome" and "frightening" just do not apply.

When the doctor finds a lump in your wife's breast? Frightening.

When the captain announces that he can't get the landing gear down? Frightening.

When tornadoes are dancing toward my house? Frightening.

When our daughter goes out on her first date with some 16-year-old boy who just got his driver's license? That will be frightening.

I propose the word "intimidating." Golf holes can certainly be that -- and some of them most definitely should be.

(2) To backtrack from what I just said:

There is one type of occasion when a shot really does frighten me -- and it's not on the 18th when I'm in contention, or on the 18th when I need a par for a milestone score.

Nervous, yes. Frightened, no.

Here's where I get frightened: on the 1st tee -- any first tee, anywhere -- when I'm playing with a new group of guys. Whether I know 'em or not, whether I care about their opinion of my game or not, whether in competition or not, that first tee ball scares the life out of me. I'm completely capable of envisioning the most godawful results, and completely prepared to say: "Geeze, guys, sorry. I haven't hit a ball like that since I was 12 years old." (Luckily, despite my insane visualizations, I've almost never hit a truly, truly terrible first tee shot -- which is my only consolation, and my only refuge, as my mind races out of control while I tee up the ball.)

And that is what made the 1st hole at The Old Course, in my first and thus-far only round there, the most intimidating hole I've yet played:

On a cold, windy, intermittently rainy Saturday morning in November of 1998, my wife and I walked up to the starter's hut and asked if I might get a game. After ascertaining that I met his qualifications, the starter said that I might approach the two old pensioners next up on the tee and ask if they'd be willing to take me on.

Of course they were willing -- even eager, it seemed. (I love the Scots.) The third and fourth of their group had been put off by the weather; they'd be delighted to have me along.

Andy was a retiree, and a part-time caddie at The Old Course. He led me around the links all day -- pointing me in all the right directions, and greeting my shots (I was in pretty good form, for November) with a steady stream of "Aye, that's fine"s and an occasional "Aye, that's a crackin' shot!"

Andy likely gave me some guidance even there on the 1st tee -- but my mind was in such an  uproar that I'm sure I didn't hear him. This was The Old Course! Almost every great player in the history of golf had stood right where I was standing. Look at this place! Who could ever get enough of this?

I was truly afraid I'd whiff it. Or hack out a huge divot and pop one up to shortstop.

Take a deep breath, Dan. Rhythm . . . Smooth it, baby. Just hit the ball. It's the widest fairway in the world! You can't miss it!

Just about then, a vision of Ian Baker-Finch launching a huge hook into the cash drawer of some golf shop down the road came waltzing into my hapless little mind.

I swung. "Aye, that's fine," said Andy. Nothing outstanding, but somewhere down the left side, to short-iron (8? 9? PW? I can't remember) range.

Andy probably mentioned something about the Swilken Burn as I approached my approach. (He'd already hit his smartly onto the green.) I probably said something about how I did know about the Burn (what do you take me for, sir -- just one more American boob?); I hope I said that as politely as I imagine I did.

I swung. Hit it fat. Oh, no, right into the Burn! But no. It bounced -- SHORT of the Burn, over the Burn, onto the green.

Andy said nothing. I just gave him a sheepish smile and shrugged my shoulders.

And I was frightened of nothing else, the rest of the day. A little intimidated, yes, by the Road Hole -- as the wind picked up and the rain came down much harder than ever that day.

Unfortunately, I had time to think about it. The group of American boobs in front of us had ground to a virtual halt, and we had a five-minute wait on the tee.

Robert and Andy were in a bit of a hurry. Their wives were to meet them in town at some approinted hour fast approaching, and they had business to attend to before the gals arrived.

"Aye," said Andy, taking a deep breath, "I can smell the whisky from here!"

I had the honor. Andy gave me my line -- over one of the O's in "Old Course Hotel," as I recall ... but which O, I have no idea now --and then he wandered over to the left, 50 yards or so, to see past the sheds. He said he'd holler when the way was clear. We waited, and waited, and waited. Man, were they ever slow up ahead! My wife, along for the walk (and now wearing Andy's raingear), took cover in the shrubbery to the right of the tee. We waited, and waited, and waited. My glove was moist; my grip was wet.

Andy hollered: "Now!"

I dried my grip as well as I could, one last time, addressed the ball, swung -- and blistered it right over the O he'd pointed me to.

"Aye," he called out, from over on the left. "That's fine."

"Fine?" I thought. "That was a crackin' shot!"

Andy and Robert teed off. I don't remember where they hit it. Nobody hit the hotel, or the sign.

Andy hit his second, then walked with me toward my ball. When he saw it, just into the rough on the left side, he said: "Aye, that was a CRACKIN' shot!"

I laughed and thought: "Now that's more like it, buddy!"

After a bit of tutelage on the nuances of the Road Hole green, and a warning about the Road Hole bunker, Andy stepped aside. I was desperate for par; my longest-time playing partner had played The Old Course many years earlier, and had parred it, and had told me so innumerable times, and had instructed me that "Parred the Road Hole" was to be his epitaph. I swung -- some middle-iron. Hit it fat. Very fat. Fifty yards short.

"Aye," said Andy, "that was yer worst shot o' the day." Indeed, it was. Indeed, it was.

(I'm sure the suspense -- if not the length of this -- is killing you, so I'll finish the story: The pin was on the right side. I pitched up farther right, to about 20 feet. The wind was whipping the cold rain, colder by the minute -- but all I could think was: Rick PARRED this hole. MAKE THIS SUCKER! I didn't. Rammed it 5 or 6 feet past. Missed the comebacker. No matter. Most memorable hole of my life -- unless the most memorable hole was 18, where I pitched one down through the Valley of Sin up to about 4 feet ... and heard cheers from the players waiting on the 1st tee. Did I make that putt? Can't remember. Don't need to.)

(3) Some intimidating holes I've played:

   -- 1 through 18 at Blackwolf Run (River). That's how it seemed that day, anyway.
   -- 17 at Sand Hills, in the big wind. Just like 17 at Sawgrass -- except that you have to keep hitting the same ball.
    -- 7, 8, 9, 10 at Pebble.
    -- 16 at Hazeltine (especially into the wind; the pros couldn't come close to handling it into the wind on Saturday of the '91 Open).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Curious JJ

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2002, 09:47:45 AM »
I'm with Shivas on this one, #8 at Pebble. As I approached my ball near the edge of the cliff I crapped myself. That's how I judge a frightening hole, did I crap myself?

I also love #12 at The Riv and what about #17 at Ocean and #17 at Strait. I agree that Dye is a crazy cat, its like he sneeks up on you at the tee and goes BOO!

Ah geez, I just crapped myself again.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2002, 10:24:29 AM »
11 at Shinnecock.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2002, 10:41:10 AM »
The tenth at Long Bay scares me....
Not from a scoring standpoint though...
Does that count?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2002, 11:01:41 AM »
Dan

Great story(ies).

Rich

PS--you ought to re-post that over on Tommy N.'s thread on "The Mysteries of the Old course.

R
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: Frightening hole?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2002, 11:12:56 AM »
The most helpless I can recall feeling on the tee is from the 4th at Rye.  You need a driver to think about reaching this par-4 in regulation, but any shot hinting left or right of the fairway is totally screwed. The second problem is attempting to figure out from which pit (left in a rough-filled hollow behind a dune, or right 40 feet below on the 3rd fairway) the recovery will be least damaging to the psyche and the scorecard.  All this after a tap-in birdie at the third!  Pat Dickinson has, to me, impressively substantiated this claim in his 'Round,' both verbally and with his witty diagrams.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »