Help please? Gas mains and golf courses

[Robin_Hiseman]

A client has asked us for examples where underground gas pipes and golf courses co-exist in reasonable harmony.  Do any of you know of good examples of such I can check out? 

Many thanks

Robin

[hhuffines]

Check out CCofNC Cardinal Course.  I know a gas line runs past holes number 6,7,8 and possibly directly under the par 5 11th.  The line may or may not go throught the Pit.

[Bill_McBride]

There is a big one that runs under the excellent 10th hole at Mike Young's Catteechee Golf Club in northern Georgia.  It shows up as a slight hump through the fairway perpendicular to the line of play.

[BCrosby]

Ask Mike Young about gas main issues at his Wolf Creek in Atlanta.

Bob

[Robin_Hiseman]

Thank you everybody so far.  Please keep them coming. Ii'll be doing some follow up in the morning, especially with Mike young, so it seems!

I recall one story told to me by a golf course contractor in the North-east of Scotland about the time they were doing some digging on a course up there.  It may have even been Cruden Bay.  Allegedly they were getting quite well into this excavation when they felt a big 'Clunk!' on the excavator blade.  They tried to lift this object up but it wasn't budging.  Scraping around a bit more they found this enormous pipe.  Turns out they were trying to dig up the UK's main oil supply pipeline from the North Sea oilfields!!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Robin - I think there are plenty. I have only worked with 1 course that had a main, Tracy Park. We did quite a bit of new construction work in the 'infected area'. There were some pretty clear rules, no excvation obviously, I think it was within 10 metes each side, we were allowed to place fill material up to 2 metres above the line. This was circa 1988 so I suspect rules have changed and they are more difficult now.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thank you everybody so far.  Please keep them coming. Ii'll be doing some follow up in the morning, especially with Mike young, so it seems!

I recall one story told to me by a golf course contractor in the North-east of Scotland about the time they were doing some digging on a course up there.  It may have even been Cruden Bay.  Allegedly they were getting quite well into this excavation when they felt a big 'Clunk!' on the excavator blade.  They tried to lift this object up but it wasn't budging.  Scraping around a bit more they found this enormous pipe.  Turns out they were trying to dig up the UK's main oil supply pipeline from the North Sea oilfields!!

That kind of story sends shivers down my spine...

[Bill_McBride]

Thank you everybody so far.  Please keep them coming. Ii'll be doing some follow up in the morning, especially with Mike young, so it seems!

I recall one story told to me by a golf course contractor in the North-east of Scotland about the time they were doing some digging on a course up there.  It may have even been Cruden Bay.  Allegedly they were getting quite well into this excavation when they felt a big 'Clunk!' on the excavator blade.  They tried to lift this object up but it wasn't budging.  Scraping around a bit more they found this enormous pipe.  Turns out they were trying to dig up the UK's main oil supply pipeline from the North Sea oilfields!!

That kind of story sends shivers down my spine...

I guess they don't require utility locators before excavating in Scotland.     I can't dig an 18" footer here without calling 1-800-DIG-IT or whatever the hell the number is.

[Ian Andrew]

Robin,

We have lots.

I worked on a new course with a "major" one right through the middle.

- layout of line was surveyed (stakes in place for duration including grow in)
- no greens in gas line right of way (just in case they need the access - not worth the risk)
- can only raise grade (obvious I know....)
- site investigations were daily
- no trees in the right of way

It was not an issue.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thank you everybody so far.  Please keep them coming. Ii'll be doing some follow up in the morning, especially with Mike young, so it seems!

I recall one story told to me by a golf course contractor in the North-east of Scotland about the time they were doing some digging on a course up there.  It may have even been Cruden Bay.  Allegedly they were getting quite well into this excavation when they felt a big 'Clunk!' on the excavator blade.  They tried to lift this object up but it wasn't budging.  Scraping around a bit more they found this enormous pipe.  Turns out they were trying to dig up the UK's main oil supply pipeline from the North Sea oilfields!!

That kind of story sends shivers down my spine...

I guess they don't require utility locators before excavating in Scotland.     I can't dig an 18" footer here without calling 1-800-DIG-IT or whatever the hell the number is.

I can understand not picking up the odd small decomissioned service... But the main gas line from the North Sea?

Either a very bad survey... Or a major safety breach

[Tim Liddy]

Robin,

Trophy Club in Lebanon, Indiana has a large gas line traversing it, as does the Pete Dye Golf Course in French Lick, Indiana.

[Tony_Muldoon]

IN relatively recent times, at Deal they put in a new main by the road.  At the BUDA David Dobby said the flow of ground water towards the sea was altered and this caused the gravel under the first green to shift, having the effect of happily increasing the undulations to those we enjoy today.  I’m guessing the distance at 25 yards?


Robin you need to start being nice to Chapper’s and he might tell you more.


(Of course with my faulty memory it may have been a water main in which case you have no excuse to be seen down there! )

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Robin,

The project we are currently working on is the part renovation/ part creation of a 27-hole course at Royal Wellington Golf Club in New Zealand. It has both sewer and gas pipes running through it. The gas lines currently run under some existing greens and tees, through trees and down fairways. Our new layout moves all the greens and tees off the gas line (and sewer line). When we work near the gas line, the people who control the line send a man down to observe.

scott

[Bill_McBride]

HI Robin,

The project we are currently working on is the part renovation/ part creation of a 27-hole course at Royal Wellington Golf Club in New Zealand. It has both sewer and gas pipes running through it. The gas lines currently run under some existing greens and tees, through trees and down fairways. Our new layout moves all the greens and tees off the gas line (and sewer line). When we work near the gas line, the people who control the line send a man down to observe.

scott

Scott, what do you hear about recovery in Christchurch?  The events in Japan have dominated the natural disaster headlines.

Does everybody talk like Murray, Jeremy and Brett in "Flight of the Conchords?"

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Robin,

I’ve designed and constructed 4 golf courses in Switzerland where International Gas Pipe Lines were present.

The most intimate contact was with the Transgas that transports North Sea Gas from the Netherlands as far as Itlay, transversing Switzerland through Tunnels and up and down valleys. On my particular course, G.C. Source du Rhône in Obergesteln, Valais the Transgas were upgrading from a 60 cm diameter pipe to 120cm diameter pipe.

Our experience negotiating with Transgas was very positive, as they were extremely flexible and interested in getting their permits and accesses as swiftly as possible, to avoid delays. As a result compromises and deals were struck quite quickly, mainly monetary!!!

The gas pipes usually were buried to to a  depth (top of pipe) of 4.00m under the normal terrain.
We weren’t allowed more than 2.00m overburden over the gas pipe
Heavy machinery (Lorries) had to bridge the pipe trace with timber mattresses
Our irrigation lines could cross their gas pipe lines, but was not allowed to come closer then 2.00m to their gas pipe.

In the end our golf course, which was constructed simultaneously with the Transgas Project, had 4 Greens and 2 Tees placed directly over the Gas Pipe Line, as it was the ideal place for the golf layout, and the Transgas had no objection.
We managed some useful synergy sharing some construction machines, and utilizing their excavation material.

If you have any specific questions just IM me.

John

[Tom_Doak]

Robin:

There are high-pressure gas lines running diagonally under both courses at Stonewall in PA.

We were very aware of them throughout the construction of the first course, to the point of only crossing them at a couple of spots where we had placed fill material.  However, after the course was finished, the landscape crew started to dig a hole to plant a tree right on top of the gas line.  They stopped when they nicked something ... and about ten minutes later there was someone on the scene from the pipeline company, because they had nicked a control circuit which set off alarms back at headquarters.  The manager was told if the guys had dug again more forcefully they would probably have made the evening news ... nationally.

[Neil Regan]

I recall one story told to me by a golf course contractor in the North-east of Scotland about the time they were doing some digging on a course up there.  It may have even been Cruden Bay.  Allegedly they were getting quite well into this excavation when they felt a big 'Clunk!' on the excavator blade.  They tried to lift this object up but it wasn't budging.  Scraping around a bit more they found this enormous pipe.  Turns out they were trying to dig up the UK's main oil supply pipeline from the North Sea oilfields!!

Robin,

  I was told a similar story at Cruden Bay. IIRC the pipeline comes in behind the 12th green. I was told that the club was considering moving the green and 13th tee back into the hill but they could not because of the pipe. I don't remember being told that they had actually dug until Clunk.

[Mike_Young]

I had had three courses where there were gas mains thru the middle...basics are...no cuts...you can fill but someone must be there observing when the work is going on....and the bulldozer must operate with the tracks at 90 degrees to the pipe...something about vibrations etc....

[Robin_Hiseman]

Thank you to all of you who have responded.  I may follow up individually, as I've been asked to write a report for our client explaining the accepted procedures in other parts of the world.  Our site is in Russia and this is one of the main gas pipelines supplying Western Europe, so we definitely don't want to chip it!  If anybody has any more examples or contacts I should talk to I will be most grateful.

I've checked my facts regarding my own little anecdote and it was the pipeline coming ashore at St.Fergus near Peterhead that they were trying to wrench out of the ground.  They weren't working on a golf course but on some other shoreline excavations.  Apparently, once they were spotted the cavalry descended upon them from the nearby oil terminal!

My own exerience of them in Bahrain is somewhat unusual.  Several oil pipes ran through the site in Bahrain, but on the surface.  The picture below shows what we had to accomodate.  I thought of them as a rail track and they soon became part of the furniture for me.  They weren't high volume pipes, but were pretty high pressure.

[Mark McKeever]

Linfield National Golf Course in Pennsylvania.  A Sunoco line runs directly under the golf course.

Mark

[Bruce Katona]

With the former employer, wea project that included a high pressure natural gas trasmission line and a fiber optic data transmission line in the same easement(this was several years ago).  As careful as you need to be around gas, the fiber optic line was much more sensitive.  Nicking this would have impacted data transmission at the NYSE.  There were many folks on-site any time we were working in any proximity to this easement area.

[Lou_Duran]

Gas lines and utility easements crisscross many courses in Texas.  I can't think of a single incident where a major accident took place on a golf property, though contractors hit lines elsewhere with some frequency.

[Ken Kearney]

Robin,

I think they installed / rerouted a gas line at Sutton GC, Dublin, last year. The head grenkeeper is Simon Lewis. i am sure he will be happy to give you a "heads-up"...
I hope this helps.


Ken K.

[Robin_Hiseman]

I'd just like to thank everybody who contributed to this thread, either through the message board or on PM.  Your comments have helped me to compile a short report, illustrated with aerial photographs of the courses you refer to, which will hopefully persuade the authorities in Russia that it is OK to maintain fairways within the pipeline easement.  If you would like to see the report and how your input turned out then please PM me and I will send you a copy.

Many thanks again.

Robin

[Jason Topp]

Robin:

Not that it is the most important issue in Bahrain but has your golf course survived through all of the unrest?

[Tags:]

Tags: