Which version of ANGC was the best?

[BCrosby]

Mark -

Interesting idea. I'm not up to the challenge.

Your post brings to mind something my mother (a Great Depression baby) said when I was a boy. After hearing me complain about the spam and mustard sandwiches she served my brothers and me, she said "Be quiet and eat. It could be worse."

So we ate.

Bob

[JC Jones]

Well, unlike you, Chris hasn't proven to be a liar and a fraud so forgive me for believing his assessment over yours.

It is not "my source," it is an article that says he consulted at ANGC from the time Mackenzie died until the time Maxwell died (which was 18 years, sorry for springing the simple math on you).  Regardless of whether it was 18, 16 or 10 years, that is tangential to the actual point being made - nice diversion - which is Maxwell changed 10-11 holes and the work was anywhere from re-doing the green to re-doing the hole. 

You are overstating Maxwell's involvement. He remodeled the course prior to the 1938 and 1939 Masters. Two years. He dramatically changed the 10th and 7th, the rest of the changes (10 holes seems a little high to me based on what was reported) were relatively minor. I see when your frustration level rises you resort to name calling. I anticipate you will be doing a lot of name calling in the future.

There is no frustration.  You have proven yourself unworthy of serious consideration based on your actions.  I'll take Chris Clouser and other's accounts over yours.  I'm sorry that bothers you, but you made your bed.

[Gary Slatter]

the original version made Donald Ross renovate Pinehurst #2 (Charles Price Golf Story).C&C just finished the most recent attempt to keep up.

the present version is a result of trying to continually maintain the challenge to the invitees for The Masters.   While many would not have made the changes, or the same changes, the people in charge of the Masters have done a good job.  I like the present course, except for the colour but even that is necessary when you consider they have to force the course this time of the year, in order to present this televised world-wide golfing event.

ANGC and it's MASTERS is the perfect spring tonic for the world's golfers.  let us enjoy it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Billy Payne gave a lengthy and informative interview/presentation regarding the golf course, from inception to current date.

It was very informative and indicative of the challenges they face in presenting the same golf course, while retaining its relevance in terms of challenge, year in and year out, to the best golfers in the world.

If you didn't see the interview/presentation you should try to access it.

[Tom MacWood]

There is no frustration.  You have proven yourself unworthy of serious consideration based on your actions.  I'll take Chris Clouser and other's accounts over yours.  I'm sorry that bothers you, but you made your bed.

I'm sorry you feel that way, that is a huge loss for me personally, and I'm sure Ran feels the same way.

[Tom MacWood]

A couple of interesting tidbits I recently came across. At the time they changed the 7th they claimed Mackenzie had not been totally satisfied with the hole and was himself planned to change it before he died. Donald Ross visited ANGC during the winter of 1938 to go over the golf course; he was joined by old man Maples.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

What are your sources?

Bob

[Tom MacWood]

Augusta Chronicle, when I get a chance I'll post what the articles reported.

[Jim Nugent]

A couple of interesting tidbits I recently came across. At the time they changed the 7th they claimed Mackenzie had not been totally satisfied with the hole and was himself planned to change it before he died.

Did they say how he planned to change it? 

[Tom MacWood]

Based on the reports it sounds to me like the seventh was actually remodeled twice. Before the 1938 they reduced the size of the green and added a new bunker. And then the next year they relocated the green a bit further up the hill and surrounded it with bunkers. I believe Horton Smith is credited with that idea.

From the March 27, 1939 Augusta Chronicle (Tom Wall):
"During his practice round yesterday, Armour took time out to note the change made on the seventh green. 'with that change the hole is far more interesting than ever before,' he was heard to say.

His remarks brought back memories of the late Dr. Alister McKenzie's appraisal of the hole when approached by Jones, who the architect designed the Augusta National. Dr. McKenzie agreed that a change was in order at the seventh but said he was not sure just what sort of change it should be.

'Just we wait until some golfer offers a new idea,' the architect advised. Jones concurred."

From the July 18, 1938 AC (OB Keeler) describing the first change. The last part is kind of ironic:

"The seventh hole, 340 yards from the championship tee, and regarded as rather too simple a problem, with its ample kidney-shaped green, and its short range, of the drive-and-kick variety, the kick frequently being of no more than 50 or 60 yards, and at times, for Jimmy Thomson or Sam Snead or Lwason Little, dwindling to a mere chip.

The baronial hunch, which is being carried out, is to operated on the kidney, cutting off one end of it at the left, this diminishing its area and further complicating an approach from that side by a neat little bunker, leaving the larger 'picture bunker' where it is back of the green, where it sets off the picture and incidentally punishes a too-enthusiastic bang from the front.

I confess that when I heard that changes were contemplated at the Augusta National, my reaction was exactly similar to that ascribed to Big Bob Jones, who is said to have inquired with an emphasis not wholly in keeping with expressions in a great family newspaper what the thunder they hoped to do to improve a course already so near perfect."

[Tom MacWood]

Regarding Donald Ross, that come from the January 18, 1938 AC. Ross came to Augusta with a group of seventeen to play a tournament and stay at the Forest Hills Hotel. Eddie Fitzgerald, who was the long time manager of Carolina Hotel, was now the manager of the Forest Hills:

"Yesterday afternoon a number of members of the party visited the Augusta National club to inspect the changes which have been made to the Jones' course. They were shown about by PJA Berckmans. Donald Ross, Frank Maples, Pinehurst head greenkeeper, were tremendously interested in the great variety of plants and trees which have been used to beautify the course.

All of the Pinehurst golfing experts were enthusiastic about the brand of hospitality and entertainment they enjoyed in Augusta. They plan to make the trip an annual busman's holiday."

[Tom MacWood]

Actually I may have it wrong about the 7th green being moved further up the hill in 1939. After comparing the 1932 Olmsted map to the 1947 RTJ map the green appears to be in the exact same location. If they built a new green they must have built it at the same location.

I also misread the article that said Perry Maxwell removed the principles nose at #11, the article actually said he did not remove it, which is reflected in the 1947 map.

Also according to Chris Clouser Maxwell rebuilt the 9th green, replacing the original boomerang green. I believe Chris is mistaken, that boomerang green was still around on the 1947 map.

[Jim Nugent]

Also according to Chris Clouser Maxwell rebuilt the 9th green, replacing the original boomerang green. I believe Chris is mistaken, that boomerang green was still around on the 1947 map.

Tom, the GD article says Maxwell took out the boomerang by 1938, and put a nearly perfect oval (practically a circle) in its place.  GD says he did this on Roberts' orders.  Roberts wanted to take away the advantage of driving from the #9 tee down the #1 fairway. 

GD also says Maxwell handled changes at 11 holes at ANGC before WWII. 

[Tom MacWood]

Also according to Chris Clouser Maxwell rebuilt the 9th green, replacing the original boomerang green. I believe Chris is mistaken, that boomerang green was still around on the 1947 map.

Tom, the GD article says Maxwell took out the boomerang by 1938, and put a nearly perfect oval (practically a circle) in its place.  GD says he did this on Roberts' orders.  Roberts wanted to take away the advantage of driving from the #9 tee down the #1 fairway.  

GD also says Maxwell handled changes at 11 holes at ANGC before WWII.  

I suppose its possible the RTJ map was wrong. Along with the boomerang at #9 the map shows the new 16th, the new 7th, the new 10th and principle's nose at #11, which was removed sometime after 1950 because Sarazen was complaining about it as late as 1950.

There is no mention of the 9th in the articles dealing with all the changes made during the Maxwell years, but there is no mention of it being changed later either. I don't see much of an advantage going down the 1st fairway with either green.

[Jim Nugent]

"The 11th hole at Augusta has had the most changes."

Maybe Ron means they've changed 11 the most times.  I would say they changed #16 the most, though, since they changed the routing there so radically.

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Interesting. Thanks. I would note that the line attributed to McK in the AC:

'Just we wait until some golfer offers a new idea,' the architect advised. Jones concurred."

doesn't sound much like MacK. I can't imagine him saying that he designed a weak hole, but others would have better ideas for fixing it. 

I wonder if that wasn't Jones rationalizing the change ex post. We'll never know, I guess. Before his death MacK didn't express - at least publicly - any misgivings about the 7th. In fact, he was quite proud of the Valley of Sin feature.

It's also interesting that as changes were made to the 7th the year before, Jones' father is quoted in the AC as being upset that changes were being make to a course that was "almost perfect". 

Bob


 

[V. Kmetz]

At this point, with so many augusta items read, I cannot remember just where it comes from, but I seem to recall a story that Jones' father, the colonel, voiced his displeasure for the principal's nose that existed on #11.

I don't believe the story said whether or not this displeasure was decisive in its eventual removal.

cheers

vk

[Greg Beaulieu]

Not being expert on architecture I can only offer a layman's observation. Having just watched the condensed rebroadcast of the 1975 Masters on CBS, one thing that struck me was how wide-open the back nine looked back then as compared to today. When you watch the back nine holes in recent telecasts there is a lot of shady area on many of the holes that simply wasn't there in '75. Some of that would be natural of course, just by trees growing taller and fuller. I suspect some of it is also due to tree planting programs and other tree additions for strategic purposes over the years. It is remarkably different-looking now. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg,

It was certainly wider, but, I wonder how much of the perspective is camera angle driven.

It's still a very wide golf course