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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #175 on: April 06, 2011, 04:41:50 PM »
Its insane to think T Mac should be credited when someone is citing a list that he he stated was found during research.

I'm admittedly not up on this subject, but I thought this insanity was in fact standard practice.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #176 on: April 06, 2011, 05:18:36 PM »
Ran,

Thank you for your statement. I must take exception with one thing you said, "First, every single page of GolfClubAtlas.com is copyrighted..."

I'm sorry, but you do NOT have the copyright for my "In My Opinion" piece about Tillinghast. I own it. I am the author and in order for you to have the copyright I would have had to sign those rights away. I never did. It is that way in the entire publishing industry. You have absolutely no rights to my work whatsoever. For example, you could not print a book of "Best In MY Opinion" pieces and include mine without my written permission because that would be copyright infringement.

As I stated earlier in this thread, please take my piece down and remove it from the site.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 05:22:35 PM by Philip Young »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #177 on: April 06, 2011, 05:39:26 PM »
David

I gotcha now.  I thought you were saying Tommy Mac should be credited as the author of the piece rather than just cited in a general bibliographic sense.  In other words, if I had the actual article and wanted to use the list Tommy Mac would get no credit; although I would probably acknowledge him. 

I too was perplexed about the copyrighted statement Ran made, but I think he is talking about each indivudual has copyright for photos etc., not that he owns the copyright across the board.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #178 on: April 06, 2011, 05:45:06 PM »
I wish I had known the facebook GCA page was false before I bought my 2nd home in Kenya
Good luck Ran
I look forward to writing an IMO piece one day
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #179 on: April 06, 2011, 05:47:42 PM »
First of all, since no agreements were signed by members who are in essence, the authors of their posts, giving Golf Club Atlas all rights to their work, the authors retain their rights to reproduce or grant permission to reproduce their work in any way they see fit.

There also appears to be a failure to understand "Fair Use" as defined by federal law. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html




Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #180 on: April 06, 2011, 05:54:14 PM »
Ran,

Thank you for your statement. I must take exception with one thing you said, "First, every single page of GolfClubAtlas.com is copyrighted..."

I'm sorry, but you do NOT have the copyright for my "In My Opinion" piece about Tillinghast. I own it. I am the author and in order for you to have the copyright I would have had to sign those rights away. I never did. It is that way in the entire publishing industry. You have absolutely no rights to my work whatsoever. For example, you could not print a book of "Best In MY Opinion" pieces and include mine without my written permission because that would be copyright infringement.

As I stated earlier in this thread, please take my piece down and remove it from the site.

Philip, I wish you would reconsider that direction to Ran.  I believe his apology is real and his embarrassment authentic.  The body of "My Opinion" pieces is rich and interesting, yours included.  Mine too for that matter!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #181 on: April 06, 2011, 05:56:41 PM »
As often as I tap the I agree buttons on Internet sites I would not be surprised if iTunes owns my house.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #182 on: April 06, 2011, 05:57:01 PM »
Ran, a long way to go, but that helps.

Brad

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #183 on: April 06, 2011, 06:03:19 PM »
Ran, a long way to go, but that helps.


Meanwhile, Tom Macwood's effigy remains a flaming conflagration
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #184 on: April 06, 2011, 06:41:12 PM »
Ran said the entire material is copyrighted and I believe he is right. He didn't say that he personally holds all those copyrights. All he said is that he (perhaps naively) expected that, as the owner of the site, he would be contacted about copyright issues. I assume, if that had ever happened, he would have taken it up with the original author.

Nuff said. It's a big mess, but I don't see a point in making it even bigger by starting character assessments of the perceived or actual wrongdoers.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #185 on: April 06, 2011, 07:08:26 PM »
I feel sad about this sorry episode and the divisions it has caused between professional writers, serious researchers and the rank and file of us that enjoy the game and really are quite ignorant of the vast body of knowlege that needs to be mined.

I do not know Tom McWood and feel he has dug a very deep hole of animosity from the stalwarts of this site. Ran I do know and no matter what the cause and effect this may have on GCA I want it to continue, this from a purely personal point of view. Without GCA I would be somewhat bereft.

Bob

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #186 on: April 06, 2011, 07:12:23 PM »
With the world in chaos, economies in ruin, well educated people begging for handouts, dictators killing their own people... etc. a handful of guys get their panties in a wad over a cleverly penned piece that, without question, had enough holes in it to raise questions?

Over golf course architecture?

Perhaps everyone should take a step back and assess their own priorities. How about you help someone less fortunate tomorrow having trashed an honorable and respectful gentleman today?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #187 on: April 06, 2011, 07:17:50 PM »
When our first daughter, Anna, was about 3, my mother-in-law conspired with our son, about 7 at the time, to play an April Fools' prank on her. They put food coloring in her little tea cups and the poor kid came crying to me, covered in red that she thought was blood or some other thing. Well, I lit into Anthony, who then admitted that Nana was also involved. I looked at her and she melted before my eyes, realizing that she had done one dumb-ass thing for an adult. She took Anna in her arms and apologized to her, directly.

A few years later, I was getting the car ready for school and attempted to alert Anna by tossing a stone at her window (gently, as I have a great short game.) Well, didn't she shit her ever-loving pants and go screaming through the house. It was then that I flashed back to the episode with Nana and realized that we can all pull something that, in the rear view mirror, suddenly looks like the most unintelligent thing ever.

I'm certainly not of any noteworthy status in the golfing community, but I do appreciate Ran's efforts on this site. I'm not a member of anyone's inner circle, nor have I been around for more than five years. I like this place and if we lose upstanding men like those who signed the note because of this, so be it. I'll miss them, but I'll be hanging around as long as Ran will have me.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #188 on: April 06, 2011, 07:54:55 PM »
Ran, a long way to go, but that helps.


Meanwhile, Tom Macwood's effigy remains a flaming conflagration

Not to worry, Phil-the-author and Brad Klein will urinate on it soon...

...and then the phoenix will rise from the ashes, and fix himself a drink.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #189 on: April 06, 2011, 08:02:19 PM »
Ran, a long way to go, but that helps.


Meanwhile, Tom Macwood's effigy remains a flaming conflagration

Not to worry, Phil-the-author and Brad Klein will urinate on it soon...

...and then the phoenix will rise from the ashes, and fix himself a drink.

Make it a double!  Or a double single malt.  Or a triple sec margarita! 

The whiners, the teeth gnashers, the effete jackasses can start their own site if they don't know how to take an apology.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Peter Pallotta

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #190 on: April 06, 2011, 08:10:59 PM »
Tom - I think I'm right when I say that very few people around here hope that you stop researching and writing -- perhaps not even Phil and Brad (though I know it made you feel better to put that image into print)

Terry - nicely done, but I think Shel wins the best lawyer award on this one for having the sense and grace to stay the hell away.  
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 08:13:12 PM by PPallotta »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #191 on: April 06, 2011, 08:17:32 PM »
Tom - I think I'm right when I say that very few people around here hope that you stop researching and writing -- perhaps not even Phil and Brad (though I know it made you feel better to put that image into print)

Terry - nicely done, but I think Shel wins the best lawyer award on this one for having the sense and grace to stay the hell away.  

Lost another one, but not all that unexpected.  He went to Harvard.  I went to IIT-Chicago Kent College of Law.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #192 on: April 06, 2011, 08:20:54 PM »
I have been here for many years, most of the time lurking, and still do not understand how grown men can become so childish over GCA, whether it is a website or a profession.

I hope this all "blows over" as it should, because as far as I know, we are all intelligent adults on this site.

There is no reason, unless you have a personal vendetta, to be vindictive and to act like children.

Lets all just get along and hopefully we will have this website to read, enjoy, learn and react to, as well as sharing knowledge, whether it be April Fools or reality, for many years to come.


Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale New
« Reply #193 on: April 06, 2011, 08:38:54 PM »
As a working journalist I see this in a couple of ways:

1) I'm not sure of the premise for Tom writing and posting this in the first place. I initially thought this was an April Fools joke, but then Sean mentioned it was posted in May 2003. I'm confused at the point of writing the piece in the first place. Was it to demonstrate a bunch of people on a posting board could be taken by a deception? I understand there's research in making the piece plausible -- and clearly that was well done because some who should have known better took it to be a real story from 1939. But what was the motivation? And why let it linger so long -- and I don't buy this "some courses were being restored because of it," line that's being used to rationalize this. That seems over the top to me.
2) I don't understand, frankly, how Tom can be bothered by people "taking" his work without attribution, since he didn't say it was his work in the first place. If I were reading this today without knowledge of this debate, I'd assume by the byline that he'd written the intro and the article was, as he suggests, a replication of the magazine's work from 1939. So when Jeff Newman and Lorne Rubenstein reprint the list, they aren't taking some supposed analysis from Macwood and plagiarizing it; instead they are simply taking what they thought was a historical document and referencing it without saying who "found" it. I don't frankly see anything wrong with the approach -- for me the bigger concern was they didn't apparently try to verify the original article. I assume they had some sense of who Tom Macwood was, and that he had an outstanding reputation as a researcher and left it at that.
Interestingly, I'm in the midst of doing some historical work for a golf organization. In my research I used Jim Barclay's history of golf in Canada. Jim is an excellent historian, and in his book he references an autobiography of George Cumming, a central figure to the development of golf in Canada. The problem is I can't locate the autobiography in question, and Jim, now in his mid-80s and now 20 years past writing the work in question, can't recall where he saw the Cumming book either. Since I can't locate it I'm not referencing it. Better safe than sorry.
With all due respect to Ran, who I've very much enjoyed meeting over dinner a few years back, those referencing this 1939 article without mentioning Macwood is not the same as stealing Ran’s commentary and pictures on County Down. I actually don’t understand this sort of theft – they could simply quote from Ran’s writing, link back to his piece and not steal the photos – or ask to have access to them. Either way, this is plagiarism, pure and simple. In the case of Macwood, those who referenced the article in question weren’t stealing from Tom – they were simply referencing the original article. If they were stealing it by reprinting the list, than Macwood would have been the first such thief.

Does this discredit Ran or GCA? I’m not sure. I never trusted most of what is written on the discussion board, and have only occasionally waded into the “in my opinion” section because it is just that – opinion. I think MacWood’s research is always going to be questioned and held to a tougher standard now – and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. However, he’ll probably never be a trusted golf historian from this point on, which is unfortunate, because my understanding is that he’s tenacious and smart and he’s discovered plenty in his research.

His folly, to reference his fictional 1939 work, is to not have owned up to this a day or two after he published it. If he had, it would still have had value as a research work and many would have still treated it seriously as a discussion piece. Now it is entirely discredited, regardless of the work that went into it, and MacWood's reputation has taken a significant hit as well.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 09:05:17 AM by Robert Thompson »
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #194 on: April 06, 2011, 09:16:08 PM »
I had no intention of entering the fray on this one, but see that my name has been brought up a few times. Until I saw it mentioned here, I had totally forgotten that I had asked Tom for a copy of the article - given that I am trying to assemble as much as I can of things that Darwin was involved in. As Tom said, he didn't have a copy of the original article - he was actually telling the truth as there was no original article as we have subsequently found out! Did he lie to me? Not exactly. Was there a sin of omission? I guess so. Am I offended? Not really. I have known Tom for quite some time since he started writing some great essays for our "Golf Architecture" magazine, and we have shared quite a bit of research material about Darwin and Mackenzie. Should Tom and Ran come clean a lot earlier? I think so and they both seem to agree on that point. Were people taken in? Most certainly. A good hoax will do that.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #195 on: April 06, 2011, 10:30:31 PM »

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
When will the lying stop?
« Reply #196 on: April 06, 2011, 11:42:47 PM »
On a related note, I found out today that Stephen Colbert is not really a Republican... I'm also starting to suspect my 4 year old might be blowing smoke up my a__ when he constantly refers to me as the "Best Dad ever".
Next!

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #197 on: April 06, 2011, 11:47:58 PM »
Thanks Ran, for clearing the air. Apology accepted from both you and Tom. Hopefully, we've all learned some lessons from this. I certainly will be more careful when commenting or quoting from sources.

This unfortunate episode does call attention to a wider point raised by many on this site. In the DG section,why not split the more serious, scholarly golf architecture research and history elements from the "OT" or more general golf topics? In this way, there would be no question that proper, factual information (with the occasional mistake or correction) would be expected in that domain.

The lively tenor of the tree house would be retained, yet the dedicated GCA geek squad and other knowledge seekers would have their fix free from "blending."

Whatever form of GCA exists, it is, in my opinion, the best golf site on the planet. I appreciate participating and hope others share my respect level enough to continue to raise the bar on this superb forum.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #198 on: April 06, 2011, 11:48:59 PM »
I just checked the "Acknowledgments" for "A Disorderly Compendium of Golf," by Lorne Rubinstein and Jeff Neuman, which reprinted the fictional list from 1939 -- including the "Laksers" typo in Mr. MacWood's original piece.

No mention of GolfClubAtlas. No mention of Tom MacWood.

Each author has his own Acknowledgments. Mr. Neuman's opens with a revealing line: "In the modern age, any honest author must first and foremost thank Google, without which this book would be impossible."

Of course that "any honest author" stuff is bunk -- but at least it's Mr. Neuman's own line of bunk (so far as I know).
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #199 on: April 06, 2011, 11:50:31 PM »
Tom - I think I'm right when I say that very few people around here hope that you stop researching and writing -- perhaps not even Phil and Brad (though I know it made you feel better to put that image into print)

Terry - nicely done, but I think Shel wins the best lawyer award on this one for having the sense and grace to stay the hell away.  

Lost another one, but not all that unexpected.  He went to Harvard.  I went to IIT-Chicago Kent College of Law.


Yet you're the one wearing the robes! ;D

(Shel can probably still claim the hourly rate argument... ;))

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