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Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #100 on: April 05, 2011, 01:42:24 AM »
While this may have started as a harmless excercise, the fallout, especially as many on this site have called for a higher bar to return to better credibility and discourse, could be quite damaging. It's one thing to extend a ruse longer than prudent; it's quite another to outright lie to a writer seeking sourse confirmaton for an article, story or publication. I'm saddened that Tom doesn't seem to comprehend the gravity of what he's done.

How are we going to improve the respect level, and quality of contributions, with this stuff going on. I laughed at that list and frankly, wasn't that interested in it to delve into it. That said, I certainly could have been duped.

What really bothers me even more is that Tom Paul, a quality guy who dearly loves the site for all of its vast, positive "potential"...was literally driven from this forum, such was his distain for the nastiness and claims made against him by Mr. Macwood and several others. He frequently asked for documentation sources on points made by Mr. MacWood and others. Quite often, the request was not addressed, and the response was demands for Mr. Paul to get information, often from private clubs to prove his assertions!

With the now admitted hoax, long running into YEARS, it is quite pathetic to me that while certainly not perfect by any stretch, as none of us are, his and others contributions are absent due to the poor decorum that had transpired for a time. To now learn the extent and depth of this fraud is quite disturbing.

WE MUST CUT THE B.S. FOLKS! We are better than this. Despite it's warts, and this is one with puss pouring from it, there is no better golf forum out there...unless we drive it into the dirt. Let's clean up the crap and move on.

Not impressed,
Kris
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #101 on: April 05, 2011, 06:57:28 AM »
I think the implications go deeper. For years Ran willingly put up with crazy posters, self-indulgent spoilers, people who needed to have been medicated or arrested, and he basically refused to impose standards of propriety, even when it drove widely valued contributed away and even as a number of respected people called upon him, privately if not publicly, to be a more effective traffic cop.

And now it turns out that all along he was tolerating, even partaking, in a fraud that violated basic standards of journalistic integrity. Maybe there's a relationship between his lack of effective moderation and his sense that it would be hypocritical to impose standards since he himself was in a certain sense violating them. I've never been one to bow down and bless popes or rabbis or anyone for being special, but those who have in this case must feel awfully uncomfortable right now. Rightly so.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #102 on: April 05, 2011, 07:05:28 AM »
The only two people I recall discussing it with were Phil's unnamed friend and Neil Crafter. At some point Neil asked me if I had a copy of the original article and I told him I did not.

I do understand the gravity of the situation, and I understand there will be consequences, but I also believe some people have overreacted and as result a pack mentality has developed. If you read the early responses on this thread (including from a couple of journalists), I think you will see they took the original intent of the hoax in proper context. My essay has been around for eight years and to my knowledge not a single golf architectural history is in need of being re-written because of any historical misrepresentation in the article. In fact the majority of the information in the article is historical accurate, which is probably why it was never detected as a hoax. Also the recent comparison to Jayson Blair is not an apt one IMO, and a little unfair. Jayson Blair was accused of plagiarizing and fabricating a series of articles over an extended period of time, and he apparently never intended on revealing the truth. I wrote a single essay that was intended to be a hoax, which included clues that it was a hoax, and I revealed the truth myself. As far as I know no one has ever accused me of plagiarism. Also Blair reported on people who never existed in cities he claimed to have visited that he never visited. Every person in my article existed as did every golf course, including Foulpointe. The information regarding the panelist's favorite courses was taken golf guides, books and magazine articles. I'm not sure how much effort it takes to sit in your apartment and steal articles from other reporters, but I do know a hell of lot of effort went into my essay. Waiting so long to reveal the article was a hoax was a mistake, and I will no doubt will pay the price, but lets keep this in perspective.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #103 on: April 05, 2011, 07:12:22 AM »
I think the implications go deeper. For years Ran willingly put up with crazy posters, self-indulgent spoilers, people who needed to have been medicated or arrested, and he basically refused to impose standards of propriety, even when it drove widely valued contributed away and even as a number of respected people called upon him, privately if not publicly, to be a more effective traffic cop.

And now it turns out that all along he was tolerating, even partaking, in a fraud that violated basic standards of journalistic integrity. Maybe there's a relationship between his lack of effective moderation and his sense that it would be hypocritical to impose standards since he himself was in a certain sense violating them. I've never been one to bow down and bless popes or rabbis or anyone for being special, but those who have in this case must feel awfully uncomfortable right now. Rightly so.

Brad
How often have you cited the article?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #104 on: April 05, 2011, 07:17:34 AM »
Blaming Ran is like blaming the founder of Wikipedia. 

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2011, 07:56:03 AM »
John,

Sorry, but you are wrong. "Blaming Ran is like blaming the founder of Wikipedia." If the founder of Wikipedia KNOWINGLY both allowed and condoned phony articles to be put into the "encyclopedia" for the purpose of ferreting out those who quote from it and don't credit it you would pronounce him innocent?

That is EXACTLY what Ran did. He knew of it and approved it from the beginning and told me personally on Sunday as he also did with others.

He shares blame in this regardless of his intentions. Goes back to that "Road to Hell" thing...

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2011, 08:00:03 AM »
Tom Macwood...

You say you comprehend the fallout and will accept the consequences, but based on your posts you clearly don't.

You say that you've written one article that was a hoax, but yet the historical information was so well researched and used in such a way that detecting the hoax was extremely difficult.  Take this and your admitted lying on multiple occassions and no one can trust ANYTHING you've ever written and/or will write in the future.  That is the part you don't get.  

Regarding your impact on this site; you stain it, perhaps irrevocably.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2011, 08:12:27 AM »

What really bothers me even more is that Tom Paul, a quality guy who dearly loves the site for all of its vast, positive "potential"...was literally driven from this forum, such was his distain for the nastiness and claims made against him by Mr. Macwood and several others. He frequently asked for documentation sources on points made by Mr. MacWood and others. Quite often, the request was not addressed, and the response was demands for Mr. Paul to get information, often from private clubs to prove his assertions!


Thank you for interjecting some humor into this thread.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2011, 08:17:23 AM »
“lets keep this in perspective.”

So this is really a problem of perspective? Tom, I was done with you and yet this further insult to everyone on site must be responded to.

Let’s put this in perspective for all to CLEARLY SEE for what it is and what you have done.

You began that with the following:

“The only two people I recall discussing it with were Phil's unnamed friend and Neil Crafter. At some point Neil asked me if I had a copy of the original article and I told him I did not.”

YOU BEGAN IT BY NOW ADMITTING THAT YOU LIED TO A SECOND PERSON! YOU LIED TO NEIL CRAFTER! How little you must think of Neil, a man with an absolutely impeccable reputation as a writer, researcher, fellow GCA-er and as a man, and yet you LIED TO HIM when he asked you for a copy of the original article.

Let’s put this in perspective Tom. You claim that you did this for the highest of purposes including ferreting out those who would quote from gca.com and not give attribution; yet Neil Crafter asks you about it and instead of owning up to him and telling him the truth you saw fit to LIE to him. For what else can the statement “At some point Neil asked me if I had a copy of the original article and I told him I did not” be taken to be?

Yet we’re the ones with a PERSPECTIVE problem?

As far as Kris “interjecting some humor” into this thread by his properly referring to how you treated Tom Paul, including VILIFYING HIM AND CALLING HIM A LIAR because he presented information from the Merion records inaccurately! You called him both a LIAR and ACCUSED HIM of PURPOSEFULLY AND KNOWINGLY PRESENTING FALSE INFORMATION, yet you find it humorous to mention in light of what you have done?

You go from new low to new low… That is the PROPER PERSPECTIVE!

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2011, 08:26:19 AM »
Hmmm, is there a golf course in Salem?

Should there be a stoning for what appears to have been from the outset a bit of fun, at the most a “scam” and far from a brutal fraud.

Should the plagiarizers be stoned as well ?

He who throws the first stone – is probably stoned!!!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 08:39:00 AM by John Chilver-Stainer »

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2011, 08:31:27 AM »
John,

The problem here is that Tom threw the first stone... and many subsequent ones. He vilifies those who copied from his article yet when several approached him for verification he LIED to them. But I guess I'm just a bit stoned for viewing those actions as wrong...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2011, 09:06:38 AM »
I think the implications go deeper. For years Ran willingly put up with crazy posters, self-indulgent spoilers, people who needed to have been medicated or arrested, and he basically refused to impose standards of propriety, even when it drove widely valued contributed away and even as a number of respected people called upon him, privately if not publicly, to be a more effective traffic cop.

And now it turns out that all along he was tolerating, even partaking, in a fraud that violated basic standards of journalistic integrity. Maybe there's a relationship between his lack of effective moderation and his sense that it would be hypocritical to impose standards since he himself was in a certain sense violating them. I've never been one to bow down and bless popes or rabbis or anyone for being special, but those who have in this case must feel awfully uncomfortable right now. Rightly so.

Arrested?  Really?  I do understand the laws concerning cyber-bullying are vague or are you referring to slander or libel.  I'm not sure if people get arrested for copyright infringement or if it is a civil penalty.  I've always felt that taking comps should be taxable income, so maybe tax evasion but I don't see you calling people out for that.  Arrested?  For what?

Dave Falkner

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2011, 09:08:43 AM »
J But I guess I'm just a bit stoned for viewing those actions as wrong...

"Well, they’ll stone ya when you’re trying to be so good
They’ll stone ya just a-like they said they would
They’ll stone ya when you’re tryin’ to go home
Then they’ll stone ya when you’re there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned"

These are original lyrics I just wrote for this occasion. It's a rainy day and I am stuck inside with my woman and nothing better to do.

Feeling down Kelly? a little blue? I wasnt aware you lived in Memphis, I guess thats just a simple twist of fate


Tom  
your desire to be held as a credible researcher, writer etc going forward reminds of a story

One time I was in Scotland playing some golf and after I had just set the new course record for TOC (coming right on the heels of doing the same at Dornoch, you could look it up there is a great article about it by this guy Tom Macwood) but I digress

anyway after that round I decided to stop into a little country pub and quench my thirst

so I walk in, sit down at the bar and order a pint, as I do so I notice this gentleman sitting by himself a few stools away  so I ask "How are you doing?"

"How am I doing?" says he  "I'll tell you how I'm doing!.  "See that painting on the wall over there?  Nice painting isnt it?, My paintings hang in all of the finest parlors of this county"  

"But do they call me Macwood the painter?"  "Nooooo"

"See that book  over there?" he says  "I did the research for that book" " my research is in the finest libraries all over the world"

"but do they call me Macwood the researcher?" "Noooooo"

"But fuck one sheep!"

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2011, 09:47:08 AM »
J But I guess I'm just a bit stoned for viewing those actions as wrong...

"Well, they’ll stone ya when you’re trying to be so good
They’ll stone ya just a-like they said they would
They’ll stone ya when you’re tryin’ to go home
Then they’ll stone ya when you’re there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned"

These are original lyrics I just wrote for this occasion. It's a rainy day and I am stuck inside with my woman and nothing better to do.

Feeling down Kelly? a little blue? I wasnt aware you lived in Memphis, I guess thats just a simple twist of fate


On a night like this as it's not dark yet I think we all sure could use one more cup of coffee because there are obviously five believers (somewhere) for Tom's point of view although just as clearly the disease of conceit is spreading and we're all longing for the man in the long black coat to show up and make sure it's all right (maaaaghu) but at the end of the day most likely you'll go your way and I'll go mine...

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2011, 09:57:39 AM »
Tom,

I love humor. But there is none in that text. The joke's all on you. If you think fabricating, when answering a writer's request for source confirmation is no big deal, given your stated self-importance as a researcher an historian, nothing more needs to be said.

Mr.Paul may have had some poor moments, but his more excited exchanges were mostly out of loyalty, friendship and RESPECT for those club members of the courses being discussed. As I said, none of us is perfect. Learn from what could have better handled, make amends, move on.
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2011, 10:45:39 AM »
I recently started watching MadMen reruns. I am reminded of Pete Campbell's discovery that Don's identity was in question. So in a completely self serving act, Pete threatened Don and did in fact tell Mr. Cooper. Mr. Cooper's reply "Who cares?"
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2011, 10:47:55 AM »
I recently started watching MadMen reruns. I am reminded of Pete Campbell's discovery that Don's identity was in question. So in a completely self serving act, Pete threatened Don and did in fact tell Mr. Cooper. Mr. Cooper's reply "Who cares?"

Are you suggesting that we should model our conduct on the moral principles (if any) of "Mad Men"?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2011, 11:19:57 AM »
You say that you've written one article that was a hoax, but yet the historical information was so well researched and used in such a way that detecting the hoax was extremely difficult.  Take this and your admitted lying on multiple occassions and no one can trust ANYTHING you've ever written and/or will write in the future.  That is the part you don't get.  

Regarding your impact on this site; you stain it, perhaps irrevocably.

Mac,

Exactly right.
Credibility is shot.



Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #118 on: April 05, 2011, 11:31:21 AM »
Poor judgment on part of the perpetrators.

But holier than thou attitude is neither helping the victims nor the cause.

Best to ignore this mess.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2011, 12:21:15 PM »
....holier than thou attitude...

I object.

None of Mr. MacWood's critics is saying that he is superior to Mr. MacWood.

They are saying that they find his behavior unacceptable.

The notion that every criticism is "holier-than-thou" is the ultimate chilling effect. Disallow criticism, and you abandon accountability.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #120 on: April 05, 2011, 05:26:18 PM »
Poor judgment on part of the perpetrators.

But holier than thou attitude is neither helping the victims nor the cause.

Best to ignore this mess.

Ulrich
From Germany, the truth.

Well said, Ulrich.  Not GCA's finest hour.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #121 on: April 05, 2011, 10:13:11 PM »
There are now several more questions that I would like to know the answers to, all involving the wonderful review of the Yale Golf Course from just a couple of years ago. This is what it says (I've highlighted the pertinent part):

Like St. Andrews, Yale reminds the golfer of no other course. To call Yale the best university course in the country is to do it an injustice. Yale remains to this day a colossus indesign and a landmark achievement. Congratulations to the University for beginning to realize this and for starting to maintain and present it in the manner in which it deserves. A 1939 world ranking found by Tom MacWood (click here to read it) shows Yale as ranked twenty-ninth in the world – the University should deploy its considerable financial and other resources toward the golf course until this work of art is once again so considered.

1- Why did the author, who I believe was Ran, of the article refer to Tom's made-up piece as if it were true and refer others to it if he knew it was false?
2- If he believed it was true (in which case it wasn't Ran), why did RAN allow it to be used as if it was true when HE KNEW IT WAS MADE UP at the time the review was put up since Ran approves all course reviews?
3- Why does the link to Tom's article NO LONGER WORK?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2011, 10:53:54 PM »
Thank you to all who have come to my support on this thread, and sent me encouraging IMs and emails. I really appreciate it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #123 on: April 06, 2011, 02:00:15 AM »
The notion that every criticism is "holier-than-thou" is the ultimate chilling effect. Disallow criticism, and you abandon accountability.

I doubt anyone thinks that every criticism thus far expressed is "holier-than-thou."  I assume Urlich was referring to the severity of the condemnation and the piling-on, but I am more disturbed by the hypocrisy of some (but not all) of the criticism.  Allow hypocrisy and you abandon reason.

Some of you obviously realize it, but I hope the rest of you come to realize that whatever condemnation you have heaped on Tom must apply equally to Ran Morrissett, because he was apparently in on it the entire time.  I say this not to further condemn Ran, but to suggest that perhaps some of the comments might have been different had Ran been the one who came clean about the scam.

But if some of you really think the act was as damning as you have indicated, isn't it bit hypocritical to even stick around on Ran's website, given his complete lack of credibility? If you need instructions on how to delete your access, I'll be glad to help you out.  

Also, over the years this website is been treated to some extraordinarily unethical behavior, yet many of you have turned a blind eye to it and repeatedly so.  Where was your outrage then?  I'll not distract from the topic by getting into it here except to note that a few of you have even have the nerve to hold up the worst aggressor as a paragon of virtue in comparison. If that isn't the ultimate in hypocrisy I don't know what is.

Anyway, I am not here to pretend that Ran and Tom didn't screw up. They did; Tom has said as much and repeatedly so. But from my perspective they have each done a hell of a lot of positive things for this website and had few if any strikes against them before this.  So as much as I disagree with what happened, you won't find me self-righteously claiming that they have forever lost all credibility because of this single screw up, especially given the context in which the "hoax" transpired.  

It is not uncommon for false entries and false information to be inserted into various texts which are particularly susceptible to copying, such as reference sources, transcriptions, musical scores, or any texts where it takes great time and effort to coherently compile and present useful and valuable information.  (Here is a link to the relevant wikipedia entry generally describing the phenomenon.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry)   As I understand it, the general idea is that the copier will repeat the false information and thus identify him or herself, but the honest writer who has done his/her own work will never put themselves in that position because they would not pass off another's work as if it were their own.

I haven't communicated with Ran or Tom about any of this, but this seems to be somewhat like what happened here. Tom and Ran have placed an enormous amount of useful and valuable information on this website for all of us to access, free of charge.  Understandably, they don't like it when others pilfer their work and pass it off as if these "researchers" had come up with it themselves.  So they planted one false article amongst an incredible amount of accurate information, and low and behold at least a few bottom feeders took the bait and acted as if they themselves had found the information.

Take this Robert Fagan guy.  He copied the entire fake article verbatim, but never bothered to mention that what he was really copying was Tom MacWood's IMO on Ran's website.  More than that, he tried to pass it off as if it was his own research that had unearthed the article!   From his website:

No, Golf Digest Magazine or Golf Magazine did not invent golf course rankings.  They existed many years before either magazine ever was envisioned.  In research for my upcoming book on the classic golf courses in America, I came upon a most interesting World Ranking of “Finest Golf Courses” dated 1939.  It was published by The National Golf Review in their Annual Review, and featured the usual golf literary talents of the day, Darwin, Rice, Keeler, Martin, and Bobby Jones. . . .

Bullshit.  Rather than do his own research as Fagan implied he was doing, he came across Tom's IMO and ripped it off, essentially word for word.  He tried to pass off Tom's work on Ran's website as if it were his own.  You guys should save some of your outrage for this guy and others who are riding Tom's and Ran's coattails by ripping them off.  I've had it happen to me and it is no fun.  

The Wall Street Journal guy may have been more lazy than anything else, but he sure as hell ought to know better than to write what he did without checking up on it first.  Or, if he is too lazy to do his own research, he at least ought to properly cite the source by noting that, 'according to Tom MacWood on golfclubatlas.com, in 1939 the National Golf Course Review . . .'  Anything less than such an acknowledgement is unethical at the very least.  It is wrong to take someone else's work and present it as your own.  This is true whether such work is fact or fiction. And you guys who say that others need not have gotten Tom's permission before copying his IMO almost verbatim are just flat out wrong.  

That said, while I have no sympathy for anyone who copied the "article" as if they had found it themselves, such traps raise all sorts of ethical issues, especially when bystanders (as opposed to researchers and writers) put their trust in the sources, and this seems to be what happened here, and obviously it went on much too long.  But even so, I am not positive it is as clearcut as some of you make it out to be and will continue to consider not only this incident but also how these two have consistently behaved.  I'll not damn them forever because this one time they let their desire to stave off the bottom-feeders get the best of them.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 03:49:03 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #124 on: April 06, 2011, 04:48:44 AM »
I don't see the point of putting the following disclaimer above the IMO piece;

Editors Note:  Though the following is a work of fiction, the amount research that went into compiling this enjoyable piece make it a worthwhile read.

How are we to sort the parts that are a "work of fiction" from the "research"?

The article should be deleted.


« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 08:57:15 AM by Donal OCeallaigh »

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