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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2011, 06:09:32 PM »
Very well said, Anthony.

Tom,  

The point is that they had no duty to contact you and if they did reproduce it that's no sign they are plagiarists as you say you were out to prove, because the article wasn't ostensibly your own words (in the eyes of anyone not in on the con).

Given no one else knew it was a fraud, they'd have treated it the same as any other old document which people regularly draw from and refer to without triple checking if it comes from a trusted source or crediting someone who may have reproduced it before them.

It certainly seems you are making your defence up as you go along.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 06:14:15 PM by Scott Warren »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2011, 06:14:05 PM »
Tommy Mac

I am rarely sure where you are coming from as I often get the feeling you hold stuff back.  Did you really straight up lie to a writer trying to verify a source?  If so, did you not suspect then that this hoax was becoming problematical?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2011, 06:18:08 PM »
Tommy Mac

I am rarely sure where you are coming from as I often get the feeling you hold stuff back.  Did you really straight up lie to a writer trying to verify a source?  If so, did you not suspect then that this hoax was becoming problematical?

Ciao

Sean:
Don't you think the answer to your last question is yes, and hence the confession?

JC:
I agree.  This is screwed up and fascinating.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2011, 06:41:52 PM »
Phil
Do you feel better now? Saying someone is bluffing is not calling them a liar IMO, but that is another story.

Did I make an excuse? If you want to say the person or persons who perpetuated a hoax are liars, so be it.

Regarding the story you've just told:

* I never spoke to your friend; we exchanged a couple of emails in May 2009

* He never asked where I found the article

* He never told me he wanted to use the article (he had already reproduced it a few years earlier)

* I never told him I found the article at an archive

* I never told him I memorized it (that is bizarre)

I've already admitted the article was a hoax, but your friends account of our exchange is even more fictitious than the article.

By the way by not using his name you bring suspicion to some of the other names being batted about. You might want to ask him if that is OK.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2011, 06:43:49 PM »
Carl

I honestly couldn't say.  It seems a strange thing to blatantly lie when there is every possibility his piece will be cited.  Furthermore, that incident (whether lying took place or not) was at least a year ago.  It would seem prudent then to come clean then and there- no?  Something doesn't seem to be adding up which I find to often be the case in reading Tommy Mac.  You see, I am not of the opinion that this incident necessarily invalidates other pieces by Tommy Mac or anybody else even if this turns out to be a case of deceit.  One mistake doesn't define a person.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2011, 06:52:43 PM »
Tom, your defense of your fraud reeks of more shit than the original crime.

If this were a true publication, and if you were a staff writer for any reputable magazine or journal, you'd have been fired on the spot once the fraud had been detected. But tet fact this won't happen simply further soils the Web site and reveals it to be more of your standard Web-based "anything goes" site than it had enjoyed a reputation of being. You and Ran have expended a lot of journalistic capital in the process. Your deliberate misrepresentation and your commitment to not undoing the lie have undermined the credibility of the site and rendered you into a fraud. Too bad, given all the hard work you have done. But then when one has a literary or journalistic reputation, it can go away pretty quickly, which is why we fact check and try to avoid errors and try to correct them when any (inadvertent) mistakes are made.

What I find equally amazing to the original fraud is that in the face of this revelation you persist in your cleverness, your research skills, your imagination and hard work. All of which tells me that creating a lie and sustaining it requires intelligence and guile that ought to be more readily applied to truthful, honest work. I suppose you'll also want to get credit for fessing up to the fraud. But in fact, every word uttered following your admission sounds to me like a further justification. Like I said, any reputable publication would have fired you for this, and your colleagues would have not only disowned you but also retroactively dismissed your other work as fraudulent, too. I completely agree with Tony Pioppi on this.

You're now the Rosie Ruiz of GCA. Or, to fit a more contemporary generation, its Jayson Blair. And he, too, was very smart. He's also out of journalism.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 07:14:53 PM by Brad Klein »

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2011, 07:04:06 PM »
Sean:
I was reading Phillip's email to suggest the inquiry was recent, though perhaps that's not the case.  

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2011, 07:09:05 PM »
While I find much of the information on GolfClubAtlas.com to be nothing more than the ravings of ill-informed people or those with an ax to grind against someone (living or dead) or something (existent or non-existent), there has always been a small percentage that I found to be highly informative, interesting and, I thought, factual. No more.

Whatever modicum of integrity this website might have once had in the eyes of professionals who research and write on golf course architecture is gone forever. Whatever integrity I believed the two people responsible for this hoax – Ran and Tom – had has also vanished.

I cannot help now but to question every bit of research supposedly uncovered by the two and ever posted here. I will never again trust their work, past or future.

What mystifies me most about this farce is that neither of the participants seems to understand is that GCA is, or at least once was, considered by many in the industry to be the world’s preeminent golf course architecture chat room. To dupe those who come to it for education and insight is idiotic.

It is a joke to argue, as Ran has privately, that had those who referenced the post in books, magazines and on websites been better journalists they would have uncovered the hoax. The fact is, however, the only mistake these journalists (many of them well-regarded) made was to assume that Tom and Ran were honest men. For that error, the journalists that trusted the information posted here will pay a steep price.

I would venture to say Ran and Tom will also find themselves paying dearly for this hoax, as well they should.


Tony
We all make mistakes, and allowing this to go on this long was a mistake and I accept the consequences whatever they may be. To come out now and admit that the article was a hoax I believe was the right thing to do, and I would do it again.

The information in the article was interesting but it really had no historical impact. Based on that I think you are being a bit overly dramatic. I suspect your reaction may have something to do with the questions being raised about your friends and fellow journalists. Giving them a free pass seems a bit strange to me, but so be it.

I agree there will a price to pay for Ran and myself, and also for those who reproduced the article. I would hope Ran has built up enough good will overcome this. I'd like to believe the quality of my previous essays, and essays going forward, including the level of research, are strong enough to overcome this episode, but time will tell. I know one thing I'm not going to stop researching and writing.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2011, 07:11:21 PM »
Sean,

The inquiry was recent and happened less than 6 weeks ago. That is also one of the reasons why I find his "coming forward" so disingenuous at the least and dishonest at the worst.

His entire explanation for what he supposedly did and why he admits deliberately lying to one who was attempting to find the truth and source is also absurd on its face.

I agree with everything that Brad stated as well.

Oner other thing that hasn't been mentioned are the numerous occasions where he has demanded that others produce and post reference sources and how he has vilified them when they have not. For that hypocrisy, too, he should be taken to task for now since he did it while maintaining his own dishonesty on the site and compounding it off it.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2011, 07:16:04 PM »
Tom,  you did not "make a mistake." You systematically planned out a fraud and then persisted in covering it up. That was no mistake. It was deliberate from A to Z.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2011, 07:37:13 PM »
By the way Tom, since I NEVER mentioned his name, how could you possibly identify him as a person you exchanged emails with in 2009? And then have the audacity to tell me that what I was told was made up?

No, Tom, I guess that despite the fact that you have admitted LYING to him, and not once but SEVERAL TIMES (see below copied from your post above), you seem to believe that everyone here is simply blowing this way out of proportion.

You simply can't stop covering up this absolutely pathetic charade...

Your post reference from above with the numerous lies indicated:

"I did exchange emails with the person I believe Phil is referring to in 2009... These are the questions he asked about the magazine: Was this a stand-alone publication?  Or was it an annex appended to the magazine proper?  Was it published at the end of 1939, summarizing the year, or at the beginning, summarizing 1938?

“I'm afraid I wasn't much help with those questions. [LIE #1. Help MUCH? You obviously couldn’t have helped at all since any answer you gave other than I lied and made it up would have been more lies.] He then asked me if I had a copy of the article. I obviously I told him I did not, and gave him a bogus story of how I found it. [Lie #2 for obvious reasons]. I probably should have left that part out (and its not the story Phil gave). [Probable LIE #3 since there is no way your word on this can be believed and I have no reason to doubt his veracity. Also, you said this under the assumption that he is the person who you exchanged emails with in 2009 when I never even implied that]. He never asked me for permission to reproduce it, [False claim #1 as he didn’t need your permission to reproduce anything. He was trying to find it so that he could PROPERLY REFERENCE IT himself.] and why would he, he had already reproduced it by that time [Again, this is based upon it being the person you “claim” you LIED to in 2009 when there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that they are one and the same, especially since. As I stated in a prior post, this inquiry was made to me less than 6 weeks ago.] and also had no idea I wrote it. It was a pretty strange exchange to say the least.

Sorry Tom, the only thing “strange” in this whole affair is you…

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2011, 07:37:43 PM »
Tom,  you did not "make a mistake." You systematically planned out a fraud and then persisted in covering it up. That was no mistake. It was deliberate from A to Z.

Does this mean that Tom will no longer be a Golfweek Rater?  Ouch.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2011, 07:43:04 PM »
Tom, your defense of your fraud reeks of more shit than the original crime.

If this were a true publication, and if you were a staff writer for any reputable magazine or journal, you'd have been fired on the spot once the fraud had been detected. But that fact this won't happen simply further soils the Web site and reveals it to be more of your standard Web-based "anything goes" site than it had enjoyed a reputation of being. You and Ran have expended a lot of journalistic capital in the process. Your deliberate misrepresentation and your commitment to not undoing the lie have undermined the credibility of the site and rendered you into a fraud. Too bad, given all the hard work you have done. But then when one has a literary or journalistic reputation, it can go away pretty quickly, which is why we fact check and try to avoid errors and try to correct them when any (inadvertent) mistakes are made.

What I find equally amazing to the original fraud is that in the face of this revelation you persist in your cleverness, your research skills, your imagination and hard work. All of which tells me that creating a lie and sustaining it requires intelligence and guile that ought to be more readily applied to truthful, honest work. I suppose you'll also want to get credit for fessing up to the fraud. But in fact, every word uttered following your admission sounds to me like a further justification. Like I said, any reputable publication would have fired you for this, and your colleagues would have not only disowned you but also retroactively dismissed your other work as fraudulent, too. I completely agree with Tony Pioppi on this.

You're now the Rosie Ruiz of GCA. Or, to fit a more contemporary generation, its Jayson Blair. And he, too, was very smart. He's also out of journalism.

Admittedly allowing the hoax to go beyond the original two weeks was a big mistake. I did say considerable research went into it, and I am proud of that research. I don't believe I mentioned anything about intelligence or cleverness, although I did say it was not easy to fool this group, and it isn't easy.

Being compared to Jayson Blair is a little rough, I don't believe he ever intended to reveal his reporting was a hoax. I think it is obvious, based on the hints within the essay, that it was meant to be hoax in the Finch mold. But the delay obviously destroyed any similar light heartedness. This episode really illustrates the dramatic effect timing has on a hoax of this kind. The very same essay, revealed in two weeks would draw comparisons to Plimpton, revealed in eight years draws comparisons to Blair and Rosie Ruiz.

You are saying I am ruined as a writer and historian, I hope you're wrong, time will tell. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #88 on: April 04, 2011, 07:49:18 PM »
By the way Tom, since I NEVER mentioned his name, how could you possibly identify him as a person you exchanged emails with in 2009? And then have the audacity to tell me that what I was told was made up?

No, Tom, I guess that despite the fact that you have admitted LYING to him, and not once but SEVERAL TIMES (see below copied from your post above), you seem to believe that everyone here is simply blowing this way out of proportion.

You simply can't stop covering up this absolutely pathetic charade...

Your post reference from above with the numerous lies indicated:

"I did exchange emails with the person I believe Phil is referring to in 2009... These are the questions he asked about the magazine: Was this a stand-alone publication?  Or was it an annex appended to the magazine proper?  Was it published at the end of 1939, summarizing the year, or at the beginning, summarizing 1938?

“I'm afraid I wasn't much help with those questions. [LIE #1. Help MUCH? You obviously couldn’t have helped at all since any answer you gave other than I lied and made it up would have been more lies.] He then asked me if I had a copy of the article. I obviously I told him I did not, and gave him a bogus story of how I found it. [Lie #2 for obvious reasons]. I probably should have left that part out (and its not the story Phil gave). [Probable LIE #3 since there is no way your word on this can be believed and I have no reason to doubt his veracity. Also, you said this under the assumption that he is the person who you exchanged emails with in 2009 when I never even implied that]. He never asked me for permission to reproduce it, [False claim #1 as he didn’t need your permission to reproduce anything. He was trying to find it so that he could PROPERLY REFERENCE IT himself.] and why would he, he had already reproduced it by that time [Again, this is based upon it being the person you “claim” you LIED to in 2009 when there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that they are one and the same, especially since. As I stated in a prior post, this inquiry was made to me less than 6 weeks ago.] and also had no idea I wrote it. It was a pretty strange exchange to say the least.

Sorry Tom, the only thing “strange” in this whole affair is you…


Because he is the only 'well known' writer I had an exchange with regarding that article. I'm done arguing with you. I've admitted what I did, if he doesn't want to come clean, that fine with me. We will just leave at that. I have no desire to drag him through the mud.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2011, 07:59:37 PM »
Timing here seems fishy. Did you consider coming clean in 2009 when you got caught, so to speak? Why now? Phil had a convo less than 6 weeks ago and there is no correlation? Seriously?

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2011, 08:13:54 PM »
"I'm done arguing with you."

No Tom, you aren't arguing with me. You're arguing with everyone on here as you have insulted all of us. I just happened to have caught you in several more lies, each of which you have admitted to.

Since you believe that you can simply justify your way our of everything, I'm COMPLETELY done with you and agree with the others who say that they believe all on site should do so as well...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2011, 08:32:19 PM »
I forgive Tom.  In a parade of clowns the last one out of the car often plays the horses ass.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2011, 09:06:08 PM »
One more reason to avoid all golf-course rankings.

George Plimpton salutes you.

With all of us having learned a great deal more about this over the past days, the late George Plimpton withdraws his salute.

I'm sorry I dragged him into this mess.

I wonder when we'll hear from Ran.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #93 on: April 04, 2011, 11:01:32 PM »
I am much more spectator/learner in here, but I am pretty amazed by this thread and the
implications of much that is being discussed.
TomMac, you have no responsibility to answer my questions, but I'd like to ask.

In the years subsequent to the posting of the original, have you lied
about this to any writers or other researchers, big or small?  They litter this site, and there are
many "amateur" researchers or learners who would dig through your original piece.  Did you mislead anybody
who asked you about this?

Lies and misleading are obviously a big deal in this world.  You mentioned your previous great work, and possibly future
work.  The problem is, Vijay is without doubt an incredible player, but still carries a scarlet letter these many years later
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 12:58:05 AM by Pat Burke »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #94 on: April 04, 2011, 11:04:35 PM »

Why now?  Original post in 2003, now in 2011, I think the statue of limitations has passed ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #95 on: April 04, 2011, 11:09:55 PM »
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/aprilfool/P90/

For those that like lists, this didn't make the Top 100.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #96 on: April 05, 2011, 12:35:18 AM »
Pat Burke,

You asked, "In the years subsequent to the posting of the original, have you lied about this to any writers or other researchers, big or small?  They litter this site, and there are many "amateur" researchers or learners who would dig through your original piece.  Did you mislead anybody who asked you about this?"

The answer to your questions is YES he did. You must have missed my earlier posts about this and his responses to them. I first cited an example of this very thing in post #69 and followed it up in 74, 77, 87 & 89. Tom admitted to the further lies and you can read about that in his posts #71, 75 & 82.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #97 on: April 05, 2011, 01:01:20 AM »
Phillip got it. You have covered that very efficiently.
But it has also been mentioned that others have, or may have used information from the subject piece.
I would imagine there would have been others, other than your friend who have asked Tom about this piece?


Phil_the_Author

Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #98 on: April 05, 2011, 01:06:06 AM »
Pat,

As far as your other question, "I would imagine there would have been others, other than your friend who have asked Tom about this piece?" Tom will have to own up to that... 

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The tallest tale
« Reply #99 on: April 05, 2011, 01:30:38 AM »
Pat,

If you type macwood+1939 into this site's search feature, there are three pages worth of threads where the list Tom invented is referred to by member of this forum in making points about certain matters. So many discussions and debates where that list has been drawn on for authority and/or to support a point.

Most disturbing if Ran (as alleged by Tom MacWood but not confirmed or denied as yet by Ran) was complicit in this, is his regular gambit of referring to "Tom MacWood's wonderful 1939 ratings list" in his course reviews.

This whole thing is bizarre.