Should international travellers abstain from paying International Rates?

[Mark Chaplin]

JK - the GCA world is slightly different to the real world. I believe there are around 2500 golf clubs in the UK I doubt more than 100 receive significant "tourist" income. We pay lower fees as we have significantly more members than most US clubs (500-800) for an 18 hole club and the vast majority charge under £50 for a day visitor.

As with most clubs RCP encourages applications from golfers of ability who are under 30 years of age. That does not mean we drop our standards a proposer, seconder and a number of letters of support are required, followed by interview, playing in and formal approval by the management board.

It should also be noted that Royal status is not conferred on a club due to the quality of the course although there are some very highly rated Royal courses around the world.

[Niall C]

At one point of my life I lived across from a Six Flags amusement park.  I was able to buy a season pass for approximately 2.5 times the cost visitors paid for one day.  This reminds me of the European golf fees.  It is a lie to say that locals don't get lower rates than visitors when memberships are artificially low compared to the one time tourist fee.

Memberships artificially low ? If we are talking about the UK, members clubs which make up the majority of clubs in the UK, are run for the benefit of the members and are NOT commercial concerns. Therefore the stated aim of most clubs is merely to balance the books and at the same time provide the members what they want by way of golf. Visitor fees (as opposed to guest fees) are an add on and in the vast majority of members clubs in this country they provide a very small percentage of the clubs turnover.

I know of absolutely no club that varies its FULL membership fees depending where the member lives or comes from. What a lot of clubs do is offer Overseas or Country membership at a discount in cost to Full membership for those living abroad or outwith a certain distance from the club.

As for visitor fees, as I stated in an earlier post, all but a couple of (american owned) commercial courses charge the same rate no matter where the visitor comes from.

Niall

[Anthony Butler]

The main problem for royal Melbourne is the very large number of visitors they get from pseudo royal clubs like deal. If they got rid of the free and cheap rounds of golf for these people then they would have room in the budget for reducing the international guest rate.   Nsw is on the right track, they have reciprocal rights with one club only.

If you are referring to England, we have two reciprocals. If you include Ireland three.

I have managed to play at a number of prominent clubs in the US either gratis or for the member's guest rate, however. Having your club write a letter does wonders.

In terms of what contribution Overseas guest fees make to most Australian club's revenue, I would say it's very small. NSW like many other clubs in Melbourne makes a much greater amount out of renting the course out for corporate days... which is Monday.

[Tony_Muldoon]

At one point of my life I lived across from a Six Flags amusement park.  I was able to buy a season pass for approximately 2.5 times the cost visitors paid for one day.  This reminds me of the European golf fees.  It is a lie to say that locals don't get lower rates than visitors when memberships are artificially low compared to the one time tourist fee.

John for the very last time there is no ‘tourist fee’, merely a visitor’s fee.   I’ve played over half the top 100 courses in GB& I (where I reside) and at all but a few where a member invited me I’ve paid the same price you would have paid if you’d been there that day too. 
I wonder if you just can’t comprehend that member club golf over here bears no relation to the high end clubs in the states? 
I’m increasingly convinced that you’re either attempting humour or have lost the plot.  You can keep on repeating whatever what you like, I’m bored pointing out your inaccuracies.. Apparently, logic ain’t gonna persuade you otherwise.

I particularly enjoyed your earlier bizarre comment on this thread.   Perhaps you do know the song.

“We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too”

[John Kavanaugh]

All I know is that if golfers in Britain had to pay what it would cost me to golf in Britain they would not golf at all.  I can not explain the voodoo economics of the situation but I can feel the reality.  I believe your secret lies in cheap memberships that are not affordable or available for the one time visitor.

[Scott Warren]

John,

It's very simple. Unless they are a member of the club or a guest of a member, British golfers pay exactly what you pay.

Memberships tend to be cheaper than in the US, but that's a completely different discussion that borders on comparing apples and oranges.

[Mark Chaplin]

John our system is very simple;  take say 600 members each paying £1000pa, charge £50pd for visitors, say 1000 in a year plus 2000 guests at £20 = £690 000. Now run a simple operation with general manager and office assistant, stewart, chef, around 5 green staff and some part time serving staff. Pay out slightly less than you receive and you generate a small profit to invest in the club.

"Sadly" you will not have 15 extra green staff, 4 gardeners, 3 shoe shine boys, membership manager, caddie master, locker room manager, valet, barber and feng shui consultant but each member will have saved £5000pa in fees.

[Andy Stamm]

I think golfers should avoid paying excessive international rates out of principle. But, I also think golfers should avoid paying excessive greens fees of principle, regardless as to whether there is not cheaper local rate.

I also have a question, and because the thread has taken a turn there, I figure it's ok to ask it here.

What's common for a UK member to be allotted in the way of guests per annum? What are the rules typically as far as accompanied/unaccompanied?

I know of a club that gets a fair amount of outside traffic that allows members very few guests per annum. I know of another, nearby, that allows members unlimited guests per annum. But there, the guest fee is not that much lower than the visitor fee or what people would typically be willing to pay, i.e. the course doesn't attract a lot of outside visitors.

Thanks.

[David Kelly]

Isn't the "visitor" rate to a UK club the same as a reciprocal rate in the US? The difference being that many of the UK privates let visitors on relatively easily whereas in the US you have to go through your club to get a reciprocal rate at another private course. 

I can get on Alwoodley as a visitor for about $150 US.  I can get on Riviera as a reciprocal without playing with a member but it will cost me a lot more than $150.

[Scott Warren]

Andy,

At Deal I've never experienced a limit on the numbers of guests I can bring - and I suspect I bring/brought more than the average member - with the guest rate being roughly a quarter of the summer visitor rate midweek and a fifth of the visitor rate at weekends.

I do know of some clubs, however, that limit the number of guests that can be introduced, particularly by overseas members.

[Adam Lawrence]

Andy, there is basically no such thing as an 'unaccompanied guest' at British clubs. You're either a guest of a member or a visitor. You do not need to be introduced to play as a visitor at almost every golf club in the UK. If you are the guest of a member, the green fee will be lower than if you just play on your own. Like Scott, I've not come across limits on the number of guests a full member of a UK club can introduce in a year, though there are limits on how many you can sign in at once, and there are theoretical limits on the number of times an individual can be a guest in one year (though having played as my Dad's guest at his club many, many times over the years I doubt such limits are actually enforced).

[Sean_A]

Very few clubs actually limit the number of guests one can sign in any given year.  Most place a limit on how many times any one particular guest can be signed in.  My club is fairly stingy and only allows the same guest to be signed in four times in a year. 

JakaB

There is no voodoo economics at play in the UK. Others have pointed out where you persistently are mistaken, but it appears to no avail.  The concept is simple; lean and mean and if you are one of the special clubs which has a course of some repute then you fleece the interested visitor (visitor being voodoo for any person from any country) for all he will pay.  I get it that you don't like the system, but most members of these clubs appreciate costs being kept at a minimum even if it means some inconvenience at times.  If you really got down to brass tacks, I'll bet you a tenner that it would cost me more as a guest to play the top 10 or 20 courses in the US compared to playing as visitor on the top 10 or 20 in GB&I.  I know I much prefer the GB&I model, but then I don't use my club as a statement of who I am.  I just wanna play relatively cheap golf on a good course.

Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

All I know is that if golfers in Britain had to pay what it would cost me to golf in Britain they would not golf at all.  I can not explain the voodoo economics of the situation but I can feel the reality.  I believe your secret lies in cheap memberships that are not affordable or available for the one time visitor.

Don't you (JK) pay about as much, on a per-round basis, to play in the U.S. as you (JK) do in the UK -- once you figure out the per-round cost of a private club?  How much does Dismal cost you per round? 

[John Kavanaugh]

I do not dislike the UK system.  Every club I am a member of here in the US works exactly the same.  Just don't expect us to perform like Disney characters trying to enhance your experience.  I'm only tired of the holier than thou attitude when it is a fiscal choice to allow outside play.  

Btw.  I have boycotted all things Scottish since the release of the Lockerbie bomber so I couldn't even be payed to play any of your fine venues.  Chalk my attitude up to bias.  

[Andy Stamm]

All,

Thanks for the info. I'm actually an overseas member at a UK club, and I am fairly restricted in the number of guests that I can bring. I asked a regular member and was told that he was also quite limited in the number of guests that he could introduce, which greatly surprised me as I didn't think that was usually the case. Perhaps I didn't understand his answer or phrased my question incorrectly and there was a misunderstanding. I'll have to look into it more. But, it's good to know that typically members can bring guests without restriction.

A quick hypothetical, you're a regular member at a course, but overseas on business. Can you have your father-in-law play without your being there as a guest, rather than as a visitor? Your father-in-law lives in Frances and has played the course with you approximately twice a year for the last 10 years, while visiting.

If the answer is no, would there be a problem if you arranged for another member to sign him in, etc. but not necessarily play with
him/host him at the course for the afternoon?

THANKS

[Sean_A]

Andy

You may have an understanding Secretary who may allow your father to slide once in a while if it isn't an habitual problem - ask.  Usually, the member must be present and part of the golfing party to sign in guests.  It makes sense to distinguish guests from visitors - no?  Anyway, it can't hurt to ask the Secretary.

JakaB

I am not sure what the Disney comment is about, but thats par for the course so far as me understanding you goes.  There is no need to be tired of an attitude that cherishes affordable golf in a private setting.  Sure clubs want visitor money.  How is that holier than thou?  Despite your issues with Scotland, its time you either put up or shut up concerning golf/membership/visitor access in GB&I.  Clearly, your secondhand info is failing you.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

I'll shut up, thank you very much.

[Andy Stamm]

Sean,

My club has been very accommodating about allowing me to bring additional guests, even though I only asked about it and haven't actually brought them. It does strike me as strange that the rule was x number of guests, but they said that I could bring many more than that without any problem at all. I wonder what's the point of the rule and if anyone would complain?

I was really just trying to get a picture of how it works for UK based regular members. It sounds like it works about as I had imagined, which is good as it sounds like there is some flexibility, but not so much room that things get out of hand.

[Mark Chaplin]

Andy at one famous Irish links members are restricted to ten guests a year by means of guest tickets. I believe the distant members then trade tickets with locals! At RCP a guest can only be signed in six times per year, it is self policing.

As Adam says we do not do unaccompanied as visitors can easily get access and pay a full fee.

I agree with you regarding excessive green fees, rates at clubs like Old Head and Royal Troon have dropped considerably in the past couple of years. I guess there are many examples of this in Ireland.

[Matt Day]

Andy at one famous Irish links members are restricted to ten guests a year by means of guest tickets. I believe the distant members then trade tickets with locals! At RCP a guest can only be signed in six times per year, it is self policing.

As Adam says we do not do unaccompanied as visitors can easily get access and pay a full fee.

I agree with you regarding excessive green fees, rates at clubs like Old Head and Royal Troon have dropped considerably in the past couple of years. I guess there are many examples of this in Ireland.

mark
We have the system at my club, you get a card that allows ten visitors per year at $30 instead of the rack rate of $120. Each time its used a hole is punched in it until all ten are used. From then on members can invite guests at $70

[Mark Pearce]

Why is anyone on this thread wasting their time answering John K?

The first rule of internet discussion fora is not to feed trolls.

I'm a member of two UK clubs.  One, Crail, allows unlimited visitors but only the first dozen on each of its two courses at the reduced members guest rate, additional guests pay the full visitor wack.

My other club, Northumberland, allows unlimited visitors but no visitor may play more than 6 times a year.

As has been said, the vast majority of UK clubs have two catefories of non-member play: visitors, who are unaccompanied and who at most clubs can play without introduction by a member or their own club, and guests, who are introduced and accompanied by a member.  Guest rates tend to be much lower than visitor rates (and that difference can be more marked the smarter the club.

I think this is a really good system.  It allows anyone with a handicap to play most of the courses in the UK at a price but allows members the ability to invite and play with guests at a much lower proce.  It is one of the benefits of membership.  To attempt to draw a parallel to private US clubs is ill conceived, since the idea of unaccompanied or un-introduced non-member play is far less common in the US. 

[Andy Stamm]

As for me, I'm not really trying to make a comparison to American clubs. I'm simply trying to understand how UK clubs work both formally, according to the rules, and realistically. For instance it sounds like it's fairly common to limit the number of times a particular guest may play at the guest rate. But, unless the club is keeping pretty good records, that rule may be bent, broken, or ignored. But if ones gets carried away, he's risking censure of some sort. This is the sort of flexibility that I think is good.

And, I think the system is fantastic that you can bring other players to play at such a wonderfully low rate for a good/great course. It would really dampen my enthusiasm for membership if I thought I couldn't bring a guest along and have him pay a reasonably low fee. I think the visitors rates are often too high, but even they are a better alternative to no access. And with resort courses commanding those fees, why wouldn't a club do that as well?

I'd like to thank everyone for the information again.

And, I'd like to apologize for taking this thread far more off topic than I had intended.

[Scott Warren]

Andy,

The fees at some top end UK courses - £140-£160 a round - seem steep, and maybe they are, but when you compare them to the likes of Pebble Beach at US$495, Spyglass at US$350 or more, Kiawah at $375, TPC Sawgrass at upwards of US$350, Whistling Straits at US$350... well the likes of The Old Course, Muirfield, Royal St George's or Sunningdale for less than US$250 seems pretty reasonable.

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott for world top 50 courses with masses of pedigree $250 isn't bad for the clubs you have listed, only PB has the same degree of pedigree and it's double the price.

[Andy Stamm]

Scott,

I agree 100 hundred percent about the relative price. I do think that $250 is too high and $500 and up is simply outrageous. But, I'd much rather pay it for St Andrews, Hoylake, or Sandwich than any TPC course.