Need help -- best of England's SE and SW areas ...

[Matt_Ward]

I will be visiting these two areas of England sometime later this summer -- probably right after The Open Championship concludes.

Wanted to get from those who know from firsthand experience -- their personal top five courses from each area of England.

I imagine places like Royal St. George's, Rye, Deal and St Enodoc will be mentioned. If those who share the info can break it down by order of emphasis for each area from 1-5.

One other thing - since I will be traveling via from one area other -- be curious to a course that uis relatively halfway between Kent and Bristol.

Many thanks ...

[jeffwarne]

I will be visiting these two areas of England sometime later this summer -- probably right after The Open Championship concludes.

Wanted to get from those who know from firsthand experience -- their personal top five courses from each area of England.

I imagine places like Royal St. George's, Rye, Deal and St Enodoc will be mentioned. If those who share the info can break it down by order of emphasis for each area from 1-5.

One other thing - since I will be traveling via from one area other -- be curious to a course that uis relatively halfway between Kent and Bristol.

Many thanks ...

St. Enodoc
Perranporth (mini ballybunion)
Saunton East
Saunton west
Westward Ho
West Cornwall
Burnham and berrow
Trevose
Bude & North Cornwall

pretty much in that order although 2-7 could rotate a bit

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

Jeff's very good suggestions are in SW England. Don't overlook West Sussex (aka Pulborough, in the town of that name) which is roughly halfway between SE & SW England. 

[Matt_Ward]

David / Jeff:

Thanks -- can you provide for me your Doak rating number for the courses you listed ?

Curious to know your top five in the SE area as well.

Thanks for the suggestion of West Sussex.

[Bill_McBride]

Matt, there is a wonderful swath of links - authentic links courses - 0n the Sussex and Kent coast.

Royal St George (Sandwich)
Princes
Royal Cinque Ports (Deal)
Littlestone
Rye

These are north to south and rank Doak 9-6, although not geographically.  It's hard to choose between them.  You could spend a week there and never get bored.

Halfway west around the M25, you'll find classics such as Sunningdale, Wentworth, Woking, New Zealand, Huntercombe, Liphook, Hankley Common, West Sussex, Swinley Forest.....

You have a good list of the west.

Beyond that there's Wales -- Royal Porthcawl, Pennard, Southerndown.

It's a veritable feast.  Go sample it. 

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

Sorry, I don't do Doak ratings.

Both St. Endoc & West Sussex made the Top 40 in Golf World's (UK) Top 100 GB&I list this fall. What more do you need to know?

Have not played SE England at all.

DT  
 

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

Sandwich and Deal are absolute must-sees on the Kent Coast.  They are both very strong golf courses and provide a great compare/contrast relationship.  I think you will really enjoy the greens at Deal, which has some very solid long par fours on the way in (12, 13, 15, and 18), and some great short ones as well (2, 6, 17).  Sandwich, well, it's Sandwich!  The dunes on the front nine are unbelievable, but some of the best architect comes out on the back nine, including the skyline green at the 10th, the wild green at the 13th, the first-rate green complex at 15 (Bernard Darwin was a huge fan), and great back-to-back fours at 17 and 18.  The two clubs are very different but both special in their own way.

On the way to Bristol--it's the heathland!  Woking has an unbelievable set of greens, though it is not always as exciting from tee to green for others.  Swinley Forest is the classic heathland layout all packed in to 6,000 yards.  Addington is as wild a golf course as you will find anywhere.  Huntercombe in Oxfordshire is Willie Park, Jr.'s first layout that is highly original and strategic while containing only 13 bunkers.  Others that folks like include Sunningdale, Berkshire, Walton Heath (36 holes each), Hankley Common, and New Zealand.  Each of these places is very accessible through either a phone call or a letter.  Addington and Woking are probably the most accessible of the bunch.

Near Bristol is Burnham and Berrow, which is a very fine links with architecture from Colt, Alison, and others.  The West Coast is very different from the East and will be a very cool experience.  St. Enodoc looks like a great choice (although it's out of the way), and, of course, Ran's favorite layout is Westward Ho!, which borders the two courses at Saunton.

If you did Deal and Sandwich in the East, Addington and Woking in the center, and Westward Ho! and Burnham and Berrow in the West, that would be an excellent and highly diverse six course trip.  As Bill McBride says, the golf in that part of the world is a feast.  Picking courses is like shooting fish in a barrel.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Keep on coming with the info.

Of the courses I am most interested in playing are Rye in the SE and St. Enodoc in the SW. For different reasons -- I am fascinated by Doak's comments in CG about Rye -- "If you entertain thoughts of matching par, I'll be happy to book your wager."

I like that kind of challenge !

Many thanks for the suggestions for a course or two to play as a midpoint journey between the SE and SW areas.

For those who have mentioned Wales I have been there and enjoyed it.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I never got the chance to play Rye, but I wish I had.  My friends who played both Deal and Rye wondered why Doak gave Rye a 9 and Deal a 6.  Par is a hell of score at Deal as well, I guarantee you.  As I said, though, any of those courses would be a great choice.

[Sean_A]

Matt

I am happy to give you a game at Burnham if our diaries can match.  

Here is how I see the SW just from a quality PoV because I don't think you care much about other stuff - is that correct?  If views, ambience, history and value mean something than would rate the courses differently.  I will adjust my scale to roughly match Doak's for you.

1. St Enodoc (low) 8
2. Burnham & Berrow (low) 7
2. Saunton East (high) 6
4. Saunton West 6
5. Perranporth (low) 6

SE

1. Sandwich (high) 7
2. Rye 7
2. Deal 7
4. Princes (low) 7
5. Littlestone (low) 5 - I would suggest playing Sandwich or Rye twice instead

There are a ton of places to play between the two areas.  Without knowing speciifics of your itinerary, all of the below are roughly the same high standard of 7.

St Georges Hill
Woking
Sunny New
Swiney Forest

But courses like Walton Heath or Pulborough may be easier to access in terms of avoiding traffic and these too are arguably just as good or better than any of the above. Note that Walton Heath is making changes so for a guy who visits these shores infrequently it may be better to hold off playing there.  If you fancy an all links trip then I would suggest Hayling Island as an option.  Its about the same quality as Littlestone and not really worth a detour, but for some its the cats meow.  

As always I reserve the right not to defend my opinions and to alter my opinions at any time.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

RSG is better than a 7, in anyone's book except Sean's.  Also, whatever Tom Doak thought back in the day, Deal is a better course than Rye, which isn't a 9, I'm afraid, unless you score the history.  It is, however, a wonderful course.  Sean is hard on Littlestone.  My recollection of Saunton East (and it's a while since I've been there) is that it is right up there with Burnham & Berrow.  Between the South East and Bristol the heathlands are a must and it's difficult to go far wrong with any of the names put forward.

[James Boon]

Matt,

Its always good to see someone making the trip to England for golf!

As with Sean, I'd be happy to arrange a game at Burnham if we can get diaries to work out.

As both of these areas are quite a trek from my Midlands home, I've only played Deal in the south east, but I think there will be more than enough support for the course on here. Suffice to say, its certainly one of my favourites and you could pick up the 3rd, 6th or 16th from there and drop them on any course in the world with a good chance of improving it!

For the south west my top 5 are:

1. St Enodoc
A very fine James Braid course. Great views across the estuary and to Padstow (great fish and chips at Rick Stein's chippy) and also an impressive church in the middle of the loop which is the burial place of the poet John Betcheman.
2. Burnham & Berrow
Impressive pedigree including Alison and Colt. A varied mix of greens to keep things interesting. A good "Championship" challenge.
3. Saunton East
Often talked about as an Open contender.
4. Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!)
Great history and when amongst the dunes, some great holes, but too many flat and dull holes to make it a real great. Certainly well worth one visit though.
5. Saunton West
The East's little brother, some equally good holes, but some quirky ones as well.

As for what's half way between Kent and Bristol (by the way Bristol is quite some way from some of these courses as the speed of roads gets progressively slower as you head further south west) All the heathland courses mentioned fit the bill. Huntercombe would be another possibility or depending upon how far south west you head, you could see Burnham as a good stop off point on the way?

Any none golf related interests when travelling? Perhaps try Padstow for its good restaurants as I've said. The Eden project is certainly worth a visit. King Arthur's castle at Tintagel? Or the picture postcard that is St Ives?

Let us know how your plans develop...

Cheers,

James

[Paul Nash]

Matt
Happy to host you at Bearwood Lakes, a newish course in Wokingham (mid point ish between Deal and Devon/Corwall) , if diaries are OK, although I suspect that you will be going for the big names nearby - it might not have the history but it is a wonderful setting and, I believe, a top-notch course that is only going to get better - there will be changes to the first 6 holes by this summer - and more through the winter following an extensive architectural and course plan by the originl architect.

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/productdetails.asp?id=195

I have played all of the Heathlands except Sunningdale and West Sussex (both of which I am sure I will love), but my favourite, easily, is Hankley Common - I can't envisage many better days than 36 holes in the middle of that 800 acre puncnbowl of heather in August with sun out and purple heather everyhere - the hard part is waddling your way around in the afternoon afer a huge lunch!

For a days golf, I would probably choose the Berkshire over Swinley - it may have slightly less charm but more variety (36 holes) and similar quality - and a lot more par 5s!

[Sean_A]

RSG is better than a 7, in anyone's book except Sean's.  Also, whatever Tom Doak thought back in the day, Deal is a better course than Rye, which isn't a 9, I'm afraid, unless you score the history.  It is, however, a wonderful course.  Sean is hard on Littlestone.  My recollection of Saunton East (and it's a while since I've been there) is that it is right up there with Burnham & Berrow.  Between the South East and Bristol the heathlands are a must and it's difficult to go far wrong with any of the names put forward.

Mark

I don't mean to be hard on Littlestone because I like it, but its a tough neighbourhood. 

I am touch n' go with Sandwich as a 7 or 8.  Perhaps if the front nine were a front ten (tee hee) or maybe if the par 3s were better.  The opening nine is really top notch.   

The 3s and a more interesting routing (so far as wind is concerned) are what really separate Rye and Deal for me even though I think they are both genrally in the same high class, but no way, no how, would I call Rye a 9.  #s 10 & 11 eliminate any chance of that high a placement.  I am stingy with the very high ratings in the hopes that I haven't seen a true 9 yet and I don't believe a 10 exists in my world. 

Ciao   

[Brent Hutto]

I've never played a finer course than Royal St. Georges and for the total experience (course quality plus surroundings) it is topped only by Cypress Point in my estimation. And even that is a much closer comparison than one might imagine. But it you're there around the Open presumably playing Sandwich is not an option this time around.

Of the other SE England courses I think of Deal and Rye as the "must plays" although sadly I've not yet been to Rye myself. To get a more complete itenerary add Princes and Littlestone which I'd consider only slightly less desirable than their respective neighbors. For a person who enjoys a challenge and considers himself a stronger than average player, I'm inclined to guess that Princes under typical conditions may actually be more resistant to scoring start to finish than Deal and definitely moreso than Littlestone. But of course if the breeze gets up 18-20mph or better and especially if the roughs are in mid-late summer condition any of the courses offer the peril of a few big numbers on any card.

[Scott Warren]

Deal, Sandwich and Rye in the SE.

West Sussex in the middle to keep you well away from London traffic.

Burnham and St Enodoc in the SW.

I'm barring up a little bit just thinking about it!

[Michael Whitaker]

Deal, Sandwich and Rye in the SE.

West Sussex in the middle to keep you well away from London traffic.

Burnham and St Enodoc in the SW.

I'm barring up a little bit just thinking about it!

Where's Swinley?

[Brent Hutto]

Deal, Sandwich and Rye in the SE.

West Sussex in the middle to keep you well away from London traffic.

Burnham and St Enodoc in the SW.

I'm barring up a little bit just thinking about it!

Where's Swinley?

Just to the south of Ascot, of course.

I thought you would know that one, Mike! 

[Matt_Ward]

Curious to know how high on their collective lists people would place Deal and Rye ?

Have received much info that the former is vastly underrated and the latter is a bit overrated.

thoughts

[Mark Pearce]

Matt,

2nd and 3rd in the South East.  Deal above Rye.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

How high is Deal in your overall best of England listing?

Top ten along with RSG ?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Again, strictly on quality Deal is arguably top 5 and arguably not top 10 - the bunching of quality of many courses is that tight in England.  For me (and without knowing a handful of candidates well enough to place them comfortably ie Ganton, Brancaster, Silloth, Sunny Old):

1. St Enodoc - 2*
2. Sandwich - 1*
3. Rye - 1*
4. Deal, St Georges Hill & Woking - all 1*
7. Formby, Swinley Forest, Sunny New, Woodhall Spa & Hoylake - all 1*

All of these are great courses and to one degree or another well worth a look.

Ciao  

[Mark Pearce]

In England overall Deal might just be in my top 10 but probably not my top 5 but I haven't ever set out a list having really thought about it (I prefer your approach of bracketing courses to absolute lists and Sean's approach of giving stars to both of those).  

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

St Enodoc is a hole in my education.  For me RSG is a clear number 1 (subject to seeing St Enodoc).  I'd have both Ganton and Silloth ahead of Deal but Deal ahead of Rye.  I'd probably have Deal ahead of Woking and Swinley but behind Hoylake and Woodhall Spa.  I'd agree though that the bunching (RSG aside) is so close that different people could have almost entirley different lists and not really disagree that much, if you see what I mean!

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Just curious... the courses that have been nominated in-between SE and SW have all centered around the Heathlands.  Are there any courses to note that are closer to the coast.  Anything around Portsmouth or Bournemouth?  Isn't Hayling and Purbeck near these cities and aren't they well regarded?

WW