THM - Alps Final Four - Prestwick 17th vs Old Macdonald 16th

[Richard Choi]

King's Putter is now done and I can go back to Template Hole Madness!

Cast your votes now for the fines Alps hole in the world.

The voting will be open till EOD Friday.

Seed #1 - Prestwick 17th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 391 yards

Why: The original. The hole is so good others decided to copy it. Nuff said.




Best Comment:

This seeding worked out perfectly for me, since I've played both Yeamans Hall and Prestwick.

Prestwick's 17th is pure fun from tee to green.  The tee shot is not highly strategic, but I like the drive because the landing area is wide enough so, even after a wayward tee shot, players will have a chance to take on the Alps approach.  The green itself exists out of prescription in that fits beautifully between two large dunes.  While modern architects might have seen the need to bulldoze the dune in front of the green, the 17th green is just there, with the dugout bunker standing as the hole's only artificiality.

The second shot can only be described as thrilling.  During my day at Prestwick, the wind was howling in my face.  This meant that I had to rip a two-iron into the green on both tries, despite the hole being under 400 yards.  The sight of the golf ball disappearing over the dune is surely one of the greatest feelings in golf, as is scrambling to the top of the hill to see the result.  A poorly played shot may find the bunker, but a solid hit will either come to rest on the green or in an awkward position off the putting surface.

It is not until the player gets past the famous Alps bunker that things get really interesting.  The green is a rippling halfpipe.  Any shot that does not find the perfect position relative to the flag will leave a difficult recovery.  However, taking the blindness of the second shot into account, the green's sideboards always allow the creative golfer a legitimate chance for an up-and-down.  It is great fun to play pitch shots and long putts well to the side of the hole and watch them drift back towards the pin.  Each of the two times I played this hole, I spent 10 to 15 minutes around the green trying all sorts of shots.  The endless array of shot game options, combined with the thrill of the blind second, is what makes the Alps at Prestwick so timeless.

[Richard Choi]

Seed #4 - Old Macdonald 16th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 455 yards

Why: From Ran - One of the fascinating aspects of National Golf Links of America is how Macdonald interpreted certain features from classic United Kingdom holes and incorporated them into his holes in the United States. For instance, with the Leven, he turned one of the landforms perpendicular to how it was at Leven Links in Scotland and walled off the seventeenth green at National Golf Links of America. In regards to the Alps, the one at Prestwick became famous in part because of its uncompromising nature. Not only does the golfer have to carry a tall hill with his approach shot but there is a hidden deep bunker that walls off the front of the green as well. Doak and Urbina’s interpretation of the this superb hole is more strategic and in keeping with the one at National Golf Links in that the golfer talented enough to hit a drive long down the right can often times get a good look at the day’s hole location.





Best Comment:

From Mr. Urbina - Prestwick was the very first golf course I visited on my tour of links land golf in the middle 80s and I have a picture of me and Perry Dye on the tee next to the Alps hole at Prestwick

Karl Olson gave me a tour of The National  and one of our first stops was the 3rd hole  "The Alps"

When I convinced Tom to move the routing to the North it was because of the natural hollow for a green and ground that I thought would be an ideal location for the Alps hole.

[Jim Nugent]

Can anyone post a picture of the Prestwick Alps from the tee, looking down the fairway, and also the approach shot from the fairway (and rough) towards the green?   Thanks.

[JLahrman]

I do not feel comfortable voting in this esteemed event unless I have played both of the holes (not sure if this is the official policy?).  This probably means that I will never cast an official vote, which I am not doing here since I have never been to Prestwick.  However, on the heels of the KPI...16 at Old Macdonald might have been my favorite hole at the entire Bandon complex.

[Richard Choi]

There is no such official policy. The voting is open to all. It is the role of the people who have played the holes to be an advocate.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

Here are pictures from the tee and fairway at Prestwick.








Having now played both holes, my vote still goes to Prestwick, although I thought that the OM Alps was one of the best holes on that course.  I think that the option to play right at OM and have a view of the green is not consistent with what I think is a prime requisite of an Alps hole - a blind second shot.  Also, the right option doesn't really convey any particular advantage.  I think it is a more difficult shot over there than from the left unless you are a very long hitter.  I like the ramp leading  to the green on the left side at OM.  It gives a ground option for approaching from the left side if you can get it over the dune.  The length of the hole at Prestwick is also more manageable for us shorter hitters.  Prestwick requires an aerial approach for the second shot and it is possible given the length of the hole.  If OM had been built first and was the original others were inspired by, then I'd say the left side ramp running down to the green is a nice feature and I'd criticize Prestwick.  But, Prestwick defines the Alps hole and is still the best Alps. OM is a good golf hole, but not the best Alps.

[Melvyn Morrow]

As for Prestwick, I feel that I must leave it in the words of Robert Kroeger from his book “The Golf Courses Of Old Tom Morris”



Old 1852 & New 2000


Prestwick 1925


The course plan with the original with 12 holes (in white).

I can make no comment on the 16th at Old Macdonald as never been there.

My only observation being that you have to cut the historical atmosphere at Prestwick with a knife, but then that is part of the real magic of the place which keeps calling you back time after time.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

I still don't believe Prestwick should be in the conversation so I vote for Old Mac despite my previously explained misgivings about that hole.

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

Prestwick, I've played several times and love it.  OM, have not been there yet.   Prestwick as the original gets my vote!

[Garland Bayley]

In following these threads, I think I would vote for Old MacDonald on the sheer quality of the hole over any of the others except the original. Since this is against the original, I abstain. It seems that the way these brackets are set up, the #1 seed should always prevail.

[JNC Lyon]

Prestwick gets my vote, despite the fact that I haven't seen Old MacDonald.  The heroic second shot and the green make that hole one of my favorites.

[Pete_Pittock]

Played both at least three times. Prestwick by a whisker, greater reward for a well struck shot  because of the smaller target. While I enjoy multiple ways to play a hole the requirement for two good shots at Prestwick puts more pressure on the golfer.

I have yet to play a blind approach to the Old Mac version, but I have always done so at Prestwick. You don't cross the Alps by going around.

[Mark Saltzman]

While I think that allowing a view of the green for a long drive up the right makes the hole at OM more interesting, I question how one can improve on the original.  By definition, shouldn't the approach be blind from all angles? I love the Alps at Prestwick and have to give it the nod.

Prestwick

[Melvyn Morrow]

I have not been to OM so can some advise me if the land was open and in plentiful supply. If so has this allowed OM to get the vote over Prestwick?

Prestwick is on a limited section of land, its lost the facility for holding The Open for this very reason, so is the comparison safe and a fair?

Unless one plays Prestwick without a head or heart one cannot fail to see the history of the game stretching out before them starting from the car park (those who know Prestwick know what I mean – those yet to have that pleasure will soon find out). Not only do you get to see 7 Greens dating back to the mid 1850, but you get the opportunity to play them.

Of course this course could be regarded as just too penal by some, but we here just call it a great golf course that has stood the test of time after time after time

The Prestwick course is one of a hand full that defines the game, yet it does not stop there, it embraces the history of the game  as well as kick started an open competition which has flourished with its own original Open still at the very heart.

All this from a small confined field the other side of the railway tracks. Does OM have limited land too?

Melvyn

[JLahrman]

I have not been to OM so can some advise me if the land was open and in plentiful supply. If so has this allowed OM to get the vote over Prestwick?

I'm not sure why this would matter.  The holes are what they are.

I remember a few years ago some sportwriter was discounting Shaquille O'Neal as an MVP candidate, essentially saying that "he's only good because he's so big and strong".  Well that's part of why he IS the MVP, not something that should count against him.

I could actually see the tighter nature of Prestwick benefitting it in the voting (going by your description only...again, I have not played Prestwick).  Several people I have talked to did not like the vast, open, unanchored feel of OM (although I loved it).

But either way, the hole is the hole.  No sense in trying to handicap them.

[Garland Bayley]

...You don't cross the Alps by going around.

Sure you do! It's called the coastal route.

Dugger

[Tom_Doak]

Jim didn't mention that my original routing for the Alps hole at Old Mac was to play up the 14th fairway and then up over the top of the ridge and down over that huge blowout to the right of #3 to a green there.  That might have given the 17th at Prestwick a run for its money!  But, we were afraid there wasn't enough room for #3 tee and this green, and there definitely wasn't room for a hole going northward from there before turning back to the south, so we shifted everything around.

[Tim Bert]

Since get to vote for any reason and since Prestwick is going to win, I will take Old Macdonald. Perhaps the best hole on the course and one of the best par 4s at the entire resort.  The photos of Prestwick posted here make it looked like my cramped American subdivision is right beside the course. 

[Kevin Pallier]

Having seen the both of these I vote for OM. Prestwick's pretty much "all or nothing" carry to the green is to it's detriment for mine.

[Mark Pearce]

The "all or nothing" approach is what makes it an Alps.  I wasn't going to vote but Kevin just persuaded me.  Prestwick.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mark

I appreciate that your definition is stricter than mine. I prefer the NGLA and OM versions - as they also have room for an approach shot that is slightly off target and one won't necessarily be in sand or thick rough. Despite the carry there is some width at the target on those two holes whereas Prestwick has none.

[Mark Pearce]

Kevin,

I appreciate that our definitions are a bit different.  I'm not sure I agree that the Prestwick green is as unforgiving as you say.  It's a pretty big green, to start with, and there is playable rough around it, as far as I remember.  I haven't played the OM or NGLA versions, so can't compare forgiveness.

Mark

[Richard Choi]

Prestwick leads 8 to 3. Voting ends today!

[hick]

Richard, what did you think of the Alps at OM. How many guys had a view of the hole on the second shot.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie and Sean convince me to remove my abstention and vote for OM.