IMO Discussion Series - Jeremy Glenn's Reverse Old Course

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - I think the reverse course goes to the same 2nd green not the 16th green. (see above posts)

[Bill_McBride]

Sean - I think the reverse course goes to the same 2nd green not the 16th green. (see above posts)

Adrian, in 2007 we played to the left side of the double greens, so #2 was to the normal 16th green position.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - I think the reverse course goes to the same 2nd green not the 16th green. (see above posts)

Adrian, in 2007 we played to the left side of the double greens, so #2 was to the normal 16th green position.

Bill yes I know thats how the have set it up but I think they have done it wrong. What did you do at the 5th play to the  normal 13th area or to 5 as normal?

[Sean Walsh]

Adrian,

As Bill has said that is the way it was set up in 2007.  Also to have these fairways crossing would make the fairway coming back in (T16/2 to G1) a very dangerous place to be.  I also think that although this makes it a tough hole it still works.  Plenty of strategy and a 4.5 par hole for a very tough start to the round. 

13/5G is an interesting one.  With some clean out of the rough and a little gorse it could work fine.  Although the setup you recommend also works for that hole.  I like the thought of coming into 13G from the reverse though.  Some lovely backboards to use and depending on the pin of the day the use of the 5th fairway is a good option.

The Third. T17 - 15G

After the hard slog of the first two holes a lightly easier third.  Avoid the hidden principles nose with the drive leaves a wedge into the green.  There is also a small pot 50-70 yards out to catch the longer drivers.  Avoid the fronting bunker, but there is a backboard to use depending on pin position.  The further right the pin the harder the hole gets. landing on the 16th tee may be the best miss. The closer to the OB you keep your drive the easier the pitch becomes. 

[Bill_McBride]

IIRC the reverse hole played to 5/13 green went to the front left or a very deep 13th pin.  You had to get to the 6th tee to play to the 4/14th green, so had to play to the 5th side coming home.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thanks Bill, I thought they did that. I think the recent reverse course is pretty crap and in many respects becomes a false account of the old layout, there are a number of holes that are just not meant to be and have been bastardized to get people around. The proper Reverse could still be played if you were on your own and I thinkit could be good, the BAD holes on the modern course are 2, (but is ok to the right green) 5 (but is ok to the front green) 12, which was never to the green where the 6th is now, 13 which was never 6 in reverse, 17 to the 1st is not much either.

I suspect the reverse 12 and 13 not being much of it is the reason this reverse course has been dropped.

I am suprised Melvyn does not know more on the true reverse. It is a shame everything is so sketchy. I have never even seen a picture tour of the 2007 version.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Bill, I thought they did that. I think the recent reverse course is pretty crap and in many respects becomes a false account of the old layout, there are a number of holes that are just not meant to be and have been bastardized to get people around. The proper Reverse could still be played if you were on your own and I thinkit could be good, the BAD holes on the modern course are 2, (but is ok to the right green) 5 (but is ok to the front green) 12, which was never to the green where the 6th is now, 13 which was never 6 in reverse, 17 to the 1st is not much either.

I suspect the reverse 12 and 13 not being much of it is the reason this reverse course has been dropped.

I am suprised Melvyn does not know more on the true reverse. It is a shame everything is so sketchy. I have never even seen a picture tour of the 2007 version.

Adrian, the last hole was stout, from the forward 2nd tee to the home green, 390 yards into a stiff breeze.  I hit driver 4 wood, delighted with a 2 putt par.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Bill, there are some great holes I agree. Would be nice to see a photo tour.

[George Pazin]

Sean, thanks, please keep going on your tour.

[Sean Walsh]

George,

A little time poor at the moment so getting to these when i can.

Adrian,

I know I took some photos but will have to find them.  May take some time as that was a few computers ago and they are on disk somewhere. So far to do this tour I've been relying on memory and the links website (piecing things together from the normal routing)   http://www.standrews.org.uk/The-Courses/The-Old-Course.aspx

The fourth T16 - G14

The drive has to make it through or over the narrow neck in the fairway about 150 yds out then avoid both the hidden Sutherland bunker and the much more formidable Cottage bunker.  Cottage bunker sits about 220-230 yds from the tee barring the right half of the fairway.  The left part of the fairway here is very narrow and sensible conditioning for this hole would have more area maintained as fairway both on the left and between Cottage and the green.  The green is the wonderful 14th from TOC.  A pity it is all rough fronting the green as the ground approach is a very good option.  One small bunker to negotiate on the approach.  Short and left is a good place for the middle handicapper to aim.  Reasonably simple up and down from there.   A longish hole at 410+ but plays with the prevailing breeze. Green slopes Back to front so should hold a well struck approach. Long is death due to the severe slopes at the rear.  Good solid par 4.

[Sean Walsh]

The good news is that I've found my Reverse Course yardage book.  The bad news is it seems no-one is actually interested in discussing it. So the defibrillator is out and this is the last attempt at reviving the thread.  If it gains a little more discussion I'll bother with the back nine.

First             399yds par 4
Second        452yds par 4
Third            356yds par4
Fourth          363yds par 4

Fifth (15T - 13G) 445 yds par5

The hole allows both fairways to be used.  Those hoping to reach in 2 are probably best served using the right (TOC5th) fairway.  Those wishing to lay up and approach with a wedge are possibly best served using the left (TOC14th) fairway. The second shot must avoid either the beardies or the large gully before the green for those approaching from the right.  Whichever route is used it is likely the third shot will be a difficult one.  From the left it is all carry over gorse, rough and three bunkers.  Short is not an option. From the right you are likely to have either a 40-50yd putt or a 70 yd pitch from an awkward angle (the saving grace is that at least the pitch has a backboard to be used for most pins).  A very good hole and strategy will change as the wind does.

I would like to see the rough short of the green transformed to shorter grass.  This would bring the bunkers more into play, speed up play and lead to some interesting recovery shots.

Sixth (14T - 12G) 345yds Par 4

Two things dominate the hole.  The coffin bunkers and the green.  Avoid the coffin bunkers by playing to a narrowish driving area left then hit the 10yds of plateaued green with a short iron.  Easy. A good short 4 needs a good to great green this has one.

I would again like to see a lot of the rough fronting the green turned into short grass to allow a running approach that the green calls for.  I don't see why this isn't possible as long is rarely a problem on TOC 12th. 

Seventh (13T - 11G) 364 yds Par 4

Possibly the hardest hole on the course.  A tough driving hole followed by an even harder second. For the long hitters Shell bunker is the target but this requires a carry of 250yds.  It is 245yds to Admirals bunker and this will be the problem for most club golfers.  Avoiding Admirals leaves about 100yds in.  The approach should be to the left half of the green as everything slopes Left to right.  However missing Left, Right or Short is death.  Long left isn't great either.  Seeing the difficulties yet..

A hole I'd have to play or see played much more often to decide if it works or not.  At this stage I'll say it is just the right side of playable and finishes a stretch of 3 very good holes.

Eighth (12T - 10G) 176 yds Par 3

This hole adds a dimension that TOC lacks, a par 3 across the wind.  The conservative play is right edge of the green but this could leave anything up to a 30yd putt.  A depression maintained appropriatey as rough and containing one bunker is the hazard to be avoided.  Take an extra club and then make a good lag putt.

Ninth (11T - 9G)  276yds Par 4

A little more interest in the drive is the only real difference to its TOC counterpart.  Driving to an angled fairway rather than straight down it does provide a slightly tougher challenge for the shorter hitters.  No avenue to move the tee back from here makes it a simpler hole for the long hitters.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean,

Thanks for your post which got me thinking about playing the course 3-4 years ago with Eric Iverson and Don Placek, and George Bahto walking with us.  It was a highlight of my golfing career, if only because when I asked Walter Woods about the "left-handed" course back in 1982, he had no idea they had ever played it that way.

As an exercise in thought, playing The Old Course backwards was one of the coolest rounds I've played.  There were a few holes where I advised my associates to play to the other fairway, and a couple more where I wished I had ... certainly, they have changed the mowing lines around the greens now that this is not the norm, and it makes holes on the reverse course like the 4th and 5th and 16th and 17th less fun.

[James Bennett]

Tom Doak

it is my recollection that your group took a more traditional approach the the reverse 12, playing past the green and then playing back, more along the lines that the 12th hole is normally played.  I gather now from your post above that, if you did indeed take the longer line, it was pre-meditated and thought out.

I wish I had thought of that - playing short of the tee and trying to come across the gorse and bushes was not pleasant.  Similar to traversing marram grass at Barnbougle - unforgiving!

Sean Walsh

I have my photos too, but the day was pretty miserable sunshine wise (the next day was perfect!).

I recall reverse 8 had one cool feature.  Play was from 12 tee, across the middle of 7/11 green to the rhs of 8/10 green.  It was a touch of Mackenzie to be playing across a green!  Even if the pin on 7 and on 11 was a long long way away from the line of play.  I think that as we carried our clubs, we all played our tee shot and then strolled across the 7/11 green.  Pretty cool.

James B

[Sean Walsh]

Tenth (10T - 8G) 371yds Par 4

Drive to the left half of the fairway leaves a short iron into the green.  First half of the green slopes sharply front to back.  Pins in the front half make it imperative to get your drive long and left due to the fronting bunker. 

Eleventh (9T - 7G) 162yds Par3

The key here is to ensure you finish on the same side of the spine as the pin is cut.  A cross wind hole.

Twelfth (Tee is on the left of Shell bunker as you come off the last green - 6G) 321yds Par 4

This is one of the two holes that really doesn't work in the current setup.  The appropriate driving area is currently nearly all rough forcing a drive out towards TOC twelfth fairway.  Rough and Gorse fronting the green also adversely effect the playability of the hole.  Some of this could remain to retain a hazard fronting the green but I would need to reacquaint myself with the area to come up with a solution. (Anyone willing to pay for me to live in St Andrews for 12 months to facilitate this please contact me by PM ) Approach is blind to a Green sloping slightly from front to back.  Large swale at the back of the green important feature for pins cut at the back of the green.

Thirteeenth (6T - 5G) 358 yards Par 4

Either take a long iron (170-190yds) to the fairway straight ahead or 3w/Driver over the coffin bunkers (Right) onto the light rough of the plateau.  The fairway leaves a blind approach.  100yds of green means this shouldn't be a problem.  The second option is probably preferable for pins cut near the grassy hollow at the front right of the green.  For pins cut in this position a long approach will leave anything up to a 90yd putt.  Plays downwind so stopping the ball will be a problem.

[Bill_McBride]

I thought the reverse 12th was kind of fun, the second shot, an 8-iron IIRC, was directly over a huge mound of gorse!  Different but challenging.  I must like blind shots, this was my closest approach of the day!

[Sean Walsh]

Bill,

I also quite like the hole just not how it was presented.  I believe that in keeping with every other hole on TOC/ROC that there should be some avenue to play to the green utilising short grass.  My initial impression would be to retain the imposing gorse you speak of but clear out the rough from the driving area and around the gully to the left of the green. Then those that are able to place their tee shot along the left hand side have an avenue to the left half/quarter of the green. Most people will err to the centre or right of the fairway to avoid the gorse down the left and will remove this as an option. Forcing the blind approach.  The depth of the green doesn't make this too onerous a task.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I also quite like the hole just not how it was presented.  I believe that in keeping with every other hole on TOC/ROC that there should be some avenue to play to the green utilising short grass.  My initial impression would be to retain the imposing gorse you speak of but clear out the rough from the driving area and around the gully to the left of the green. Then those that are able to place their tee shot along the left hand side have an avenue to the left half/quarter of the green. Most people will err to the centre or right of the fairway to avoid the gorse down the left and will remove this as an option. Forcing the blind approach.  The depth of the green doesn't make this too onerous a task.

Our pin was about 40 feet in from left edge, so up and over was really the only play. It was unusual for TOC!

[Sean Walsh]

Bill,

I just think that if the gully was fairway then there would be a great opportunity to reward those able to place their tee shot accurately down the left whenever the pin was on the left side of the green.  For instance a front left pin would be all but impossible to get near via the blind aerial route, but very accessible via the ground game through the gully for the smart player

[Andy Stamm]

Way back when, I promised to provide some support that the reverse old course was used in competition. Unfortunately, I couldn't find what I'd read, and the harder I looked, the more I thought I'd imagined it. I'm happy to report that I've found it in a new source, but given the wording is very similar, I'm guessing it's coming from the same original source.

On p. 39 of Scott MacPherson's 'St. Andrews the Evolution of the Old Course' it states:

The left-hand course was only used once during a major tournament and that was in the 1886 Amateur Championship won by Horace Hutchinson. It happened by chance when the week of the event coincided with the turn of the left-hand course. The tournament was in progress before the authorities became aware of the situation and so play was allowed to continue.

Elsewhere in the book it says that the left-hand course was disfavored for tournaments because it required two holes to cross each other (as opposed to one on the right-hand). The claim isn't supported though, and I don't imagine that in 1876 there was enough of a field or gallery to make that much difference, but who knows.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Andy - My take is if you tend to think about  the  rationale of the 1870 changes that Old Tom and Co employed. They would have been done for one reason.."it was a better cpurse". Taking that a stage further if the new routing was better why play the old un, unless it was for resting purpose, which was done until the 1970s. The left hand route does not really have many better holes, perhaps 7, it has a few close equals but several mingers too. Okay for a change but its a no contest really.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I have a full report printed from the Scotsman Newspaper covering 4 days from the 20th through to the 24th September 1886. A total of around 11 pages however the copy is not that great but readable.

Anyone wishing a copy please send me an e-mail or PM with your e-mail details and I'll send you a copy.

Melvyn