IMO Discussion Series - Jeremy Glenn's Reverse Old Course

[George Pazin]

Jeremy's piece - The Reverse Old Course by Jeremy Glenn - unfolded in a terrific series of threads a number of years ago. It was one of the earliest series on here, and set a strong standard that few have met. It is one of the first series to take full advantage of computer graphics technology that even now many don't possess, thanks mostly to Jeremy's background in the industry.

Jeremy presents many interesting scenarios for how the ROC may have been played, and he did so before recent years when the TOC has been played by a lucky few. I believe some of those lucky few are posters, so hopefully they will share their experiences.

Indulge yourself - read Jeremy's piece and join in on some terrific discussion. Jeremy doesn't post much these days - I'm hoping he's too busy - but maybe he will join in on the fun.

Melvyn was also kind enough to send me a course routing that has been used in recent years, I will post that shortly.

[Bill_McBride]

George, I was one of the lucky few in late March 2007, about four years ago.  I have the yardage book provided by the Links Trust and will refresh my memory about how the Reverse was actually laid out.  As I recall there were some significant differences between Jeremy's thoughts on the routing and how it actually played.

Interesting highlights:

The approach to Reverse #1 (1st tee to 17th green) is terrifying, very narrow with the Road bunker right and the road left.  Trying to get on in two is very scary.

The hole that plays from the 13th tee to the 11th green plays down the regular 12th fairway backwards.  Where all those bunkers are blind from the regular 12th tee, they are all visible and intimidating played in reverse and into the wind.  The approach shot is up over Hill bunker to a green that falls away sharply, left to right and front to back.  Very scary shot.

More later.

Anyone interested in this program next year should start checking the Links Trust website and check the schedule and directions.  It's a great deal - play Old, New or Jubilee, and Reverse for about 150 quid (in 2007).

[George Pazin]

Here is the map Melvyn provided:



Here is the scorecard:



Thanks, Melvyn!

[Adam Lawrence]

Anyone interested in this program next year should start checking the Links Trust website and check the schedule and directions.  It's a great deal - play Old, New or Jubilee, and Reverse for about 150 quid (in 2007).

Unfortunately the Old Course in Reverse week hasn't been played since 2008, and there's currently no indiciation that the Trust plans to repeat it.

[Sean Walsh]

Adam,

That is indeed a shame although I can understand why.  Except for those of us very interested in the architecture and/or history in the form it was presented it didn't really work as a course. 

Not that it couldn't work , just that it would require a significant amount of fairway reclamation and some minor gorse removal. 

[Bill_McBride]

Adam,

That is indeed a shame although I can understand why.  Except for those of us very interested in the architecture and/or history in the form it was presented it didn't really work as a course. 

Not that it couldn't work , just that it would require a significant amount of fairway reclamation and some minor gorse removal. 

Did you play it, Sean?  I thought it was really kind of fun with a brisk south wind.  Would I prefer to play the regular?  Yes, but the fact that the course can truly be played in reverse just added to its allure for me.   I think the Links Trust is missing a good thing with their decision.

[Sean Walsh]

Bill,

Yes I did play it.  I think I may have even been in your group but I'm not certain about that.  I'd have to check my journal.

I think you may have misconstrued my comments.  The critical words in my post were "in the form it was presented".  By this I mean that there were up to 10 holes (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 from memory) that needed rough and/or gorse trimmed from the front of the green if it was to play in a similar fashion to TOC.  On some of these it was a sever imposition on the playability of the hole (16, 12, 4, 6).  The Links Trust is very unlikely to remove the rough I speak of because it would change TOC as we have come to know it, or at least how they like to present it so it is at least similar to its championship presentation.  They hold the Links Trophy there each year and I doubt they would consider what they would think is compromising that event for what may be now considered a novelty.

All that said it was an experience that I loved.

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, my group was just John Krystynak and me, wish we could have played together.

Funny, the only time I recall gorse being a real issue was on the reverse hole that played from near the 8th tee to the 6th green - there you had to hoist your approach up over a veritable forest of gorse that usually sits benignly behind the green.

Maybe it's good to be a regrettably short but happily straight ball striker. 

[Sean Walsh]

Bill,

Yes that's what I believe is the reverse 12th.  Also the revers 16th (TOC 2nd green) has a Gorse affected approach for the reverse course. The other two main culprits is poor placement of thickish rough at what is for the Reverse the approach to the hole.

[Andy Stamm]

Adam,

That is indeed a shame although I can understand why.  Except for those of us very interested in the architecture and/or history in the form it was presented it didn't really work as a course. 

Not that it couldn't work , just that it would require a significant amount of fairway reclamation and some minor gorse removal. 

I recall reading a few years ago that the powers that be were happy with it because it became an 'event' to open normal summer play on the Old Course. And, I think it said that they were also happy with the fact that there was more play normal for early April because of the Reverse Old Course. Any truth to that?

Those that played, how busy was it? If they can get some people to come out for a package deal similar to what was mentioned above, it sounds like a smart move revenue wise.

[George Pazin]

Some questions for the historians:

When they used to play both versions on a regular basis, did they hold competitions on both versions, or was the version we know now used more often?

Anyone have any insight on the decision to finally choose the current version?

Any info would be appreciated.

[Adrian_Stiff]

George back in the 70s my pro/boss knew one of the Auterlonies  and I remember the conversation quite well because they were referring to January when the course used to be played in reverse for the whole month, he said that they did not play it properly and that the old reverse course did not play to every green in exact reverse. He mentioned a routing more like this:
1st tee to 17th green
tee bck behind 17th green to 2nd green (not 16)
3rd - 17t - 15g
4th - 16t -14g
5th - 15t -5g
6th - 14t - 12g
7th - 13t - 11g
8th - the 8th
9th - the 9th
10th - the 10th

[Adrian_Stiff]

11 - 11t -7thg
12- the 12thg
13 - the 13thg
14 - t6 to 4thg
15 - t5 to 3dg
16 - t4 to 2g
17 - t3 to 17g
18 - t2 to 18g

He said a lot there lots of different set ups over the years, the original course was more up the centre, the two routings were bastardised from 1871 and continued to get distorted to allow more play.

[Andy Stamm]

Some questions for the historians:

When they used to play both versions on a regular basis, did they hold competitions on both versions, or was the version we know now used more often?

Anyone have any insight on the decision to finally choose the current version?

Any info would be appreciated.

I've seen conflicting reports in books that I've read. I'll provide the sources later when I get home.

According to one source... Apparently one competition (the amateur, maybe pre-1900) was played on the reverse course, by accident. The norm was to use the routing as we know it for competitions, but apparently no one 'official' was there at the start of the round to say that, and it was a day/month or whatever for reverse play, so the players started that way. When the powers that be realized this, it was too late, so the competition was supposedly the only one played on the reverse course.

But, I read another source recently (not sure if I can remember where) that stated that the reverse course was used for 4 or 5 big events, I think even including an Open.

Like I said, I'm report back with details later, I know I have the first book at home.

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Andy and Adrian, I look forward to learning more.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The 1876 Open has been talked about being played over the reverse, but some say no. I think this was the OPen when Strath hit through the 17th green and they were unsure to dsq him, he tied but refused the play off but perhaps I am mixed up with my dates. So if he was playing 17 the thought was todays routing was played. If the routing I mentioned above was played I think the 17th was pretty much the same in both courses, though I really don't know. I have read somewhere that 9 and 10 are the reverse holes as well, but cant remember where.
I think the reverse routing that has been played in modern times does seem a mess and common sense would say Auchterlonies routing to the 5th green would be the same game both courses, ie they would play to the earlier pin.
I think an amateur may have played over it either as well. TM forgot to go back or the reverse was rota'd for that week.

[Andy Stamm]

Well, I can't seem to find the sources. I'm pretty sure that one was Golf Scotland's Game by David Hamilton. That book is excellent, but I returned it, so I can't check. But, I can't remember which version is included there. And, I can't remember where the other version came from. I thought it was St Andrews & the Open Championship by David Joy. I looked through it but couldn't find it. There's no index, so maybe I missed it, but skimming the book, it's only about the Open, and I think it was the Amateur that was claimed to have been played on the clockwise course.

[Melvyn Morrow]

The Open St Andrews 1876











Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

I spent a fruitless hour this morning in search of my yardage guide from the Reverse Course played in 2007, so won't be able to compare the actual course with the changes proposed by Jeremy.

One thing for sure is that Jeremy had proposed the construction of some new tees and other work, and none of that was done.   Still the course was quite playable although the loop seemed even more crowded than usual.

[Ian Andrew]

I thought this was such a fun read. The images that accompanied the text are awesome (even after all this time). I almost went over for that reverse playing then and I now look back at that as a huge missed opportunity. I plan to go back to "hang" out for a week some time fairly soon (almost did that with Lloyd two years back too). Next time I'm there I'm going to walk the reverse course for pleasure. It's moved to the top of my list of things to do and see. If they put on the day again - I'm going.

I've got to give him credit for considering the reverse as a regular option - agree or disagree with the changes - many are fun to think about.
Kudos to Jeremy for posting that series.

[Sean Walsh]

For those who have played it or have enough familiarity with the course to imagine the holes in reverse let's get past, is it a good idea? and discuss the course. For the moment I intend to do it without discussing the normal routing.

The first. (T1 - G17)

Shortish par 4 Very wide fairway.  You need to flirt with the left side of the fairway to have a decent shot to any pins from the middle of the green back.  A narrow green flanked by Road Hole bunker right and the road left isn't much better.  The good miss for pins front and middle is short or short right.  The miss for back pins is either short or long right.  A very tough par for a starting hole. There are no changes required to maintenance to make this work as a very good hole.   

[Andy Stamm]

I think playing into the Road green from that angle would be a blast. Of course, you'd like to give the road bunker a wide berth, but the road is much more in play because the green is so narrow. On the other hand, from this angle, the road bunker probably does have quite the same magnetism as it does when approaching from the other side. Additionally, you'd like to be able to shoot straight into the narrow green meaning that while the fairway will still be immensely wide, there's now an advantage to get your ball to a particular spot, much more so than when playing to the first.

[Sean Walsh]

Andy,

The angle and narrowness of the green does make this a wonderfully strategic hole.  Take the risk with the driver and the hole really opens up to a potential birdie. The conservative line really does make the approach infinitely harder.

I do however disagree about the road bunker.  From this direction although its reputation gives warning of its presence it is not staring you in the face.  Many players will be shooting at the green from an angle and will want to avoid the road which is the obvious miss.  As a result there is a temptation to aim short and a little more right flirting with the bunker if your distance control deserts you. Also the right hander's fade and the prevailing wind both take you towards the bunker.

I actually wouldn't be suprised if the Road Bunker sees the same or a greater number of visits in the reverse setup. 

[Andy Stamm]

I was mainly thinking of the contouring. One of the great things of the road bunker from the 17th fairway is how much the front of that green runs/kicks into the bunker. Players even putt into it with disastrous results. I'm having trouble picture the contouring coming from the other way, but I don't think it would feed into as much. In particular, I don't think you'd really putt into it, but obviously that's a rarity in any event.

[Sean Walsh]

Andy,

The contouring from the reverse angle does to some extent shed away from the bunker.  Which is fine if it kicks you onto the green (except if you then run off onto the road) but if it kicks you right you are probably more likely to end up with a nasty pitch over the bunker to a very narrow target.  In this scenario bogey is a given.  


The Second (17T - 16G)

This is a tough tough hole.  You need to drive either as close as you can to Cheape's bunker in an effort to get as lofted a club as possible into your hand for the approach, or as close to the wall as you can leaving a blind approach but from a better angle to avoid the fronting bunker.  In an ideal world the approach would be played over severely rumpled terrain and short grass.  This is one of the holes effected most by rough in the wrong place.  If you are running the ball in hit and hope because you not only could get some interesting kicks from the terrain but you must also avoid the large bunker fronting the green. The green falls away from you a little so good luck holding it. Also if you are right of centre and can't hold the green you're likely to find the rear bunker.  Long and left is OB.