The Soft Sand at Bay Hill: Good or Bad?

[Tim Martin]

Even as popular as Arnie is, they will not attend his tournament if they dont get those bunkers sorted out.
The firm greens..great..but not with those bunkers.

You're kidding, right?  Even with his struggles, Marino made $648,000 for second place.

If that amount of money is up for grabs, those guys would play in soft sand WITH furrowed rakes.

Michael-Forget about the money. They are going to snub Arnie(The King) if the bunkers don`t get sorted out? Really?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bill...
Actaully NO..I am not kidding.
Look at the field for that event over the past five years..It's depth of feild has declined 20% in that period, it is no longer an essentail on the schedule of the worlds players..
this year for instance..
No Kaymer, Westwood, Casey, Donald,Mcllroy..Phil was going to miss even as a past Champ, but decided he needed more holes played.
When they can play for so much money every week, they are spoiled and WILL NOT tolerate what they consider to be infair conditions.
That been siad, I am sure Mr Palmer will make sure that next year the sand has "settled" and the greens are a little less severe in firmness to ensure he does not get any more loss of foeld strength.

[Carl Rogers]

Here's a shot from the Barnbougle thread. Should they change out the sand there as well?

Isn't the bunker construction more the issue here?  I wonder what hue and cry there would be Tour venues had bunkers like this one?
What would be the play here? .... take an unplayable ... go back 2 club lengths....drop where you can take a swing in some direction...plug... and then a 5 yard explosion shot.

One result is that no lead would be safe.  It might make the Pro game more exciting.

But I do admit that this 5 handicapper does not want to put an 'X' on the card for one bad shot...

[Jason Topp]

At least one article I read indicated that this is one of the few events the tour does not control the setup. I am sure Arnie could have had firm bunkers if he wanted them.

[Randy Thompson]

At least one article I read indicated that this is one of the few events the tour does not control the setup. I am sure Arnie could have had firm bunkers if he wanted them.

Donīt believe everything you read!

[Bill_McBride]

Bill...
Actaully NO..I am not kidding.
Look at the field for that event over the past five years..It's depth of feild has declined 20% in that period, it is no longer an essentail on the schedule of the worlds players..
this year for instance..
No Kaymer, Westwood, Casey, Donald,Mcllroy..Phil was going to miss even as a past Champ, but decided he needed more holes played.
When they can play for so much money every week, they are spoiled and WILL NOT tolerate what they consider to be infair conditions.
That been siad, I am sure Mr Palmer will make sure that next year the sand has "settled" and the greens are a little less severe in firmness to ensure he does not get any more loss of foeld strength.

So you're saying those guys skipped Bay Hill because they knew IN ADVANCE that the sand was going to be soft?!   Gotta be something else.  Or maybe just that the set up has been different every year.  It may have more to do with the timing two weeks ahead of the Masters.  That would make for a long trip for the overseas players.

[Matt_Cohn]

This board seems to generally value skill in recovery shots - hence, for example, the dislike of US Open rough around the greens, because it creates a hack-out situation for everyone.

Isn't a plugged lie the same as 6-inch rough around the greens?

[Randy Thompson]

This board seems to generally value skill in recovery shots - hence, for example, the dislike of US Open rough around the greens, because it creates a hack-out situation for everyone.

Isn't a plugged lie the same as 6-inch rough around the greens?

or greens that stemp faster than 12 and are heavily contoured and in an area that could be subject to high winds???
For me yes, for the PGA tour, yes

[Sean Leary]

This board seems to generally value skill in recovery shots - hence, for example, the dislike of US Open rough around the greens, because it creates a hack-out situation for everyone.

Isn't a plugged lie the same as 6-inch rough around the greens?

Matt, you are a really good player, which would you rather have?

[Richard Choi]

This board seems to generally value skill in recovery shots - hence, for example, the dislike of US Open rough around the greens, because it creates a hack-out situation for everyone.

Isn't a plugged lie the same as 6-inch rough around the greens?

Not quite. What we value is risk/reward. We like bunkers because it clearly defines risk/reward - flirt with it at your own peril. However, US Open rough is pervasive and there is no risk/reward - it is all risk.

[JR Potts]

This board seems to generally value skill in recovery shots - hence, for example, the dislike of US Open rough around the greens, because it creates a hack-out situation for everyone.

Isn't a plugged lie the same as 6-inch rough around the greens?

Not quite. What we value is risk/reward. We like bunkers because it clearly defines risk/reward - flirt with it at your own peril. However, US Open rought is pervasive and there is no risk/reward - it is all risk.

I'm still waiting to hear where the risk/reward was on 17 at Bay Hill....that is, besides hitting the fade-runner.

Seems to be to have been risk/risk.

[Richard Choi]

Ryan, I have already said that the greens were too firm for what it was designed for.

But I did not see a single guy hitting a ball short of the green. All of the balls that rolled to the back hit the middle of the green. Seems to me the green had enough opening to let it land short.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Isn't a plugged lie the same as 6-inch rough around the greens?
 
 
 
No..it is not.
Good players have some degree of control out of thick rough...none out of a plugged lie...give me 6 inch rough of the two any day.
I have no problem at all with US Open rough, especially off the faitways.
I am a firm believer that straight driving should be rewarded more in the modern game than it is.
Also hitting greens should be likewise rewarded.

[Jordan Caron]

What was Marino's position when he played the 17th hole?

The reason I ask is that he (and Laird for that matter) had every opportunity to hit to the left half of the green where there is ample opening. Wth the way the green was releasing they would have left themselves a straight forward 2 putt...

 

Bingo!! 

Yes it does suck that a player who comes so close to executing a great shot gets so penalize screwed but given where he stood, he should have played well left of the hole.  Brain dead play by a guy trying to win his first event.  Birdie was highly unlikely on #17 and he didn't really need it.  Despite the pin on 18, players had a better chance to making a 3 there than a 2 on 17. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The only problem with that theory Jordan is that because of the hard greens, that "safe" option was removed, as demonstarted by only 16 players hitting the green that day....that is the premise of the complaint on the bunkers.

I dont think anybody deliberately made the bunkers plug...just new sand,,but somebody should have had the sense to make the greens more playable with the soft sand in mind.
Only 16 players hitting a green does not constitue a good hole...those guys were hitting 6 irons most of the day on Sunday!!!!

[Jordan Caron]

The only problem with that theory Jordan is that because of the hard greens, that "safe" option was removed, as demonstarted by only 16 players hitting the green that day....that is the premise of the complaint on the bunkers.

I dont think anybody deliberately made the bunkers plug...just new sand,,but somebody should have had the sense to make the greens more playable with the soft sand in mind.
Only 16 players hitting a green does not constitue a good hole...those guys were hitting 6 irons most of the day on Sunday!!!!

Left or long of that green seems like a better leave than in the front bunker with a tucked pin.  There's plenty of green to work with and a few options to play back toward the hole.  If you know you can't hold the green, why not just accept something that goes over the green and gives you more green and most likely a better lie to work with? 

[Sean Leary]

The only problem with that theory Jordan is that because of the hard greens, that "safe" option was removed, as demonstarted by only 16 players hitting the green that day....that is the premise of the complaint on the bunkers.

I dont think anybody deliberately made the bunkers plug...just new sand,,but somebody should have had the sense to make the greens more playable with the soft sand in mind.
Only 16 players hitting a green does not constitue a good hole...those guys were hitting 6 irons most of the day on Sunday!!!!

Left or long of that green seems like a better leave than in the front bunker with a tucked pin.  There's plenty of green to work with and a few options to play back toward the hole.  If you know you can't hold the green, why not just accept something that goes over the green and gives you more green and most likely a better lie to work with? 

This hole being a par 3 is the issue here. If you can't hold the green with a 5 or 6 iron then the setup is the issue........

[Matthew Rose]

Slight tangent, but I really don't like the beach bunker they put in there at 17. Almost like they want it to look more like Doral or something.

[Doug Sobieski]

The only problem with that theory Jordan is that because of the hard greens, that "safe" option was removed, as demonstarted by only 16 players hitting the green that day....that is the premise of the complaint on the bunkers.

Michael:

The truly safe option was NOT removed. You can play well left of the hole, landing the ball toward the front opening and having it release to the back of the left hand section, leaving you approximately 30-50 feet. But how many Tour players ever take a route that is that safe? Playing at the flag when you know that the right hand section is only 22 paces deep (that's the actual number) AND firm is a significant risk. They are big boys, and know what they are getting in to. Significantly more than 16 players could hit the green if they played the most safe shot, but maybe they aren't smart enough to figure that out. Make your par on 17, and live to fight another day on 18.

Was Marino's shot TRULY a good shot that was overly penalized? In that situation, coming up 5-7 yards short of where you KNOW you need to land it seems like a mistake you don't want to make.

Regards,

Doug

[Matt Kardash]

A few things to keep in mind (and this is coming from someone who likes watching the tour pros struggle):

1. A setup where if you land it on the green it bounces forever but if you land it short it stays put makes for impossible golf.
2. Bay Hill was never designed to play firm and fast, and you know what, that is ok! Not every course needs to play that way.
3. We can sit here and say they should know better and should just aim for the left side of 17, but you need to keep in mind that it is very easy to know what shot needs to be played when you have been watching on tv and see exactly how the hole is playing. Trust me, this is a huge factor on judgement. And even if there golfer knew exactly how to play it there is probably only a space 10 feet by 10 feet on the front of the green where the golfer can land it to have a chance at keeping it on the green. From 200+ yards that is a small target!
4. To make matters worse the hole has water OVER the green as well. I bet you a few golfers got some huge bounces and the ball ended up in it.

[Kalen Braley]

I would have to agree with the general sentiment that the 17th hole at Bay Hill was an absolute joke.  And the reason why it didn't work was for a 3rd factor that I didn't see mentioned much...which is distance

Scenarios:
1)  hard green -  this can be managed
2)  hard green + soft sanded bunkers - This too can be managed
3)  hard green + soft sanded bunkers + long approach shot required - This proved to be a joke, even for the pros.

I can't even count how many shots which hit just barely over the bunker, yet still ran off the back of the green with many ending up in the rough.  The reality was there was nowhere to hit the ball...plain and simple as that.  If they had moved the tees up so they could hit 9 or 8 irons instead of 5 and 4 irons, perhaps the setup would have been sane!

[Doug Sobieski]

And even if there golfer knew exactly how to play it there is probably only a space 10 feet by 10 feet on the front of the green where the golfer can land it to have a chance at keeping it on the green. From 200+ yards that is a small target!

Matt:

You are going to have to trust me on this (I've played the hole 100's of times from those tees). The safe shot to the left is NOT that difficult. There is an ample opening, and much larger than you'd think. A Tour player wouldn't fret it with a 5 or 6 iron in their hand (it's a full club less than trying to make the carry over the bunker.

Doug

[Greg Tallman]

Something tells me Larry Nelson would have figured out that the 40 foot birdie putt was the play here... the young guys that only know bomb and gouge and attack...

Stop picking on the sand and identify the real issue... lack of course management/strategy. The kids just don't have it.

[Doug Sobieski]

Something tells me Larry Nelson would have figured out that the 40 foot birdie putt was the play here... the young guys that only know bomb and gauge and attack...

Stop picking on the sand and identify the real issue... lack of course management/strategy. The kids just don't have it.

Exactly.

Also, I just read a piece by Dave Seanor talking about Marino's poor bunker play, particularly from plugged lies. When I saw him play the similar shot on 15, I actually laughed at his technique. Spencer Levin apparently played a practice round with him and tried to help him with plugged lies FROM THE SAME SPOT on 17! Yet everyone wants to blame the sand when one of the worst bunker players on Tour can't save bogey.

EDIT - I also verified that it was DOWNWIND at the time. So from 230 or so, downwind, to a green section 22 yards deep, it's SMART to be going at that flag?