Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Willie_Dow]

Tony - Long Cove was outstandingly more exciting to play than Harbor Town when it was first opened back in the 80's, I think.

Just watching the construction of the townhouses along the right side of 18 was enough to drive me away from HT down the road to LC.

Perhaps the raters are considering the development of homes on the property as a cause for dropping LC's standing.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony - Long Cove was outstandingly more exciting to play than Harbor Town when it was first opened back in the 80's, I think.

Just watching the construction of the townhouses along the right side of 18 was enough to drive me away from HT down the road to LC.

Perhaps the raters are considering the development of homes on the property as a cause for dropping LC's standing.

  I certainly think that the developers of LCC did an incredible job of ensuring that the homes never intruded into the corridors of the course.  I think that the greens at LCC make it a heads and shoulders course above HT. There is SO much variety in the contouring of LCC. HT’s greens, as a whole, are small, flat and generally, uninteresting. #6 & #15 greens are the only ones that are similar to the greens at HT, and I think that is a testament of the group that help build LCC.
  It’s a tremendous course to walk, a wonderful member’s course that can be set up to play difficult. Like MANY older courses that have been rated #50-#100, the new courses with new technology, new grasses, new this and that can sometimes cloud the judgment of really good architecture.

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

Gun to your head -- if it comes down to staying in the top 100 -- do you keep Harbour Town or Long Cover ?

I will respond when you reply.

The competition has certainly intensified -- especially from a wide variety of courses in the mountain time zone.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony:

Gun to your head -- if it comes down to staying in the top 100 -- do you keep Harbour Town or Long Cover ?

I will respond when you reply.

The competition has certainly intensified -- especially from a wide variety of courses in the mountain time zone.

Matt,
  I think it you take away the approach shot on #16 through the putt on #18, HT doenst make anyones list. I AM bias to LCC, but I do think that the variety is far superior at The Cove than HT.

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

Frankly, I don't see either making my personal top 100 USA.

Not that they are bad -- but the competition for the slots has greatly intensified.

thanks for your candid comments ...

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,
  Let me twist what you and I both said and say that I agree that they are both good courses, but no longer Top 100 in America. With the new grasses out, the ability architects have had over the last 10 years to build on more dramatic sites, move more dirt, yet make things look untouched, and create much more of a "WOW" factor than courses built before 2000, we're seeing a lot of newer courses make theses lists.

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

It's not that HT or LC are not still good courses -- the bar has risen - the fanfare gets from the tourney keeps it in the top 100.

There are better courses in and around the greater Hilton Head area as you well know.

[Travis Dewire]

Matt,

after some pondering, I think I could give you a numbered list of the best coureses in MA. this is all IMO.

1. tcc
2T. Dedham C & PC 2T. Myopia Hunt Club
4. Worcester CC
5. Brae Burn CC
6. Kittansett
7. Eastward Ho!
8. Essex
9. Salem
10. Charles River

other noteworthy coures; Taconic, Pittsfield CC, The berkshires (A.W.Tillinghast's only MA design - never seen it, but it IS a Tilly)

It should be noted, that I have never played any cape, or Nantucket courese, so I am sure my rankings would like different had I been able to play, Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Sankaty Head, and the others in the area that I do now know off of my head.

Let me know what you think

[George Freeman]

Matt,

after some pondering, I think I could give you a numbered list of the best coureses in MA. this is all IMO.

1. tcc
2T. Dedham C & PC 2T. Myopia Hunt Club
4. Worcester CC
5. Brae Burn CC
6. Kittansett
7. Eastward Ho!
8. Essex
9. Salem
10. Charles River

other noteworthy coures; Taconic, Pittsfield CC, The berkshires (A.W.Tillinghast's only MA design - never seen it, but it IS a Tilly)

It should be noted, that I have never played any cape, or Nantucket courese, so I am sure my rankings would like different had I been able to play, Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Sankaty Head, and the others in the area that I do now know off of my head.

Let me know what you think

Travis,

I don't know a lot about MA golf, but I would think a couple obvious exclusions are Old Sandwich and Boston Golf Club.  Maybe even Black Rock?

Then again, maybe you haven't played any of those.

[Brad Tufts]

Matt,

after some pondering, I think I could give you a numbered list of the best coureses in MA. this is all IMO.

1. tcc
2T. Dedham C & PC 2T. Myopia Hunt Club
4. Worcester CC
5. Brae Burn CC
6. Kittansett
7. Eastward Ho!
8. Essex
9. Salem
10. Charles River

other noteworthy coures; Taconic, Pittsfield CC, The berkshires (A.W.Tillinghast's only MA design - never seen it, but it IS a Tilly)

It should be noted, that I have never played any cape, or Nantucket courese, so I am sure my rankings would like different had I been able to play, Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Sankaty Head, and the others in the area that I do now know off of my head.

Let me know what you think

Travis,

My disagreements with your list above come mainly with Eastward Ho and Dedham.  I have played EH twice, and DP once, but felt that they lacked in the resistance to scoring category.  Say what you will about the reliance on R2S, but even so, I hit the ball all over the place at both courses and scored very well regardless in all three rounds.  I feel like one should not be able to shoot even par while hitting it all over the map.

Also, I believe that Salem has to be among the top 5 in MA at worst.  It's just a more complete test than all but the TCC composite.  I like Essex and Myopia better for sentimental reasons, but Salem is a great track.  History aside, Salem's course is better than the TCC members layout.  Francis Ouimet should be worth a nudge though!

Concerning Brae Burn, I've played the course twice in the Met League and really enjoyed it both times.  The only place where BB is lacking is the back-to-back par fives on the back nine, and a couple too many quirky short par fours might hold it back.  In my personal book, cool quirky short 4s help, but I'm guessing it may hold the course back a bit in the rankings.

I have also not seen Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Sankaty, Nantucket, as well as Worcester.

I did respond to your original comments on this thread a while back, if you want to check them out!

[Travis Dewire]

Matt,

after some pondering, I think I could give you a numbered list of the best coureses in MA. this is all IMO.

1. tcc
2T. Dedham C & PC 2T. Myopia Hunt Club
4. Worcester CC
5. Brae Burn CC
6. Kittansett
7. Eastward Ho!
8. Essex
9. Salem
10. Charles River

other noteworthy coures; Taconic, Pittsfield CC, The berkshires (A.W.Tillinghast's only MA design - never seen it, but it IS a Tilly)

It should be noted, that I have never played any cape, or Nantucket courese, so I am sure my rankings would like different had I been able to play, Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Sankaty Head, and the others in the area that I do now know off of my head.

Let me know what you think

Travis,

I don't know a lot about MA golf, but I would think a couple obvious exclusions are Old Sandwich and Boston Golf Club.  Maybe even Black Rock?

Then again, maybe you haven't played any of those.

lo0lololololol black rock is a JOKE! I havent played boston or os, but i guarentee playing both millions of times would not lend me to include them in my rankings. Sure, I would love them, and totally enjoy myself. But to be honest George, I'm a snob, and if i had my choice to play any coureses in MA, boston and os would never be on my list.

Simple fact is this. The land on those ten courses, has been untouched green land for 100 years. Black rock was an old rock quarry used for business purposes. Boston a similar situation, Miron had to demolish a lot of rock. I am not sure about os, but i know that it was built recently, and therefor the land hasn't been sitting in place, for very long.


If you have played 7 of the 10 courses i listed, you've played the best. Ask anyone in the state, and they agree. The rankings are rankings. Not to pick on you Brad, but you have only played Eastward Ho! and Dedham a total of three times. I have played dedham atleast 5 times, and eastward ho! once. What makes Brad's ranking "better" or more "correct" than mine?

I believe it was logos, the greek philosphers coined; truth comes from reason, and reason comes from you.

love the old, hate the new, no ranking is ever going to change that

[Sean Leary]

Travis,

At least you have an open mind.

[George Freeman]

Matt,

after some pondering, I think I could give you a numbered list of the best coureses in MA. this is all IMO.

1. tcc
2T. Dedham C & PC 2T. Myopia Hunt Club
4. Worcester CC
5. Brae Burn CC
6. Kittansett
7. Eastward Ho!
8. Essex
9. Salem
10. Charles River

other noteworthy coures; Taconic, Pittsfield CC, The berkshires (A.W.Tillinghast's only MA design - never seen it, but it IS a Tilly)

It should be noted, that I have never played any cape, or Nantucket courese, so I am sure my rankings would like different had I been able to play, Oyster Harbors, Hyannisport, Sankaty Head, and the others in the area that I do now know off of my head.

Let me know what you think

Travis,

I don't know a lot about MA golf, but I would think a couple obvious exclusions are Old Sandwich and Boston Golf Club.  Maybe even Black Rock?

Then again, maybe you haven't played any of those.

lo0lololololol black rock is a JOKE! I havent played boston or os, but i guarentee playing both millions of times would not lend me to include them in my rankings. Sure, I would love them, and totally enjoy myself. But to be honest George, I'm a snob, and if i had my choice to play any coureses in MA, boston and os would never be on my list.

Simple fact is this. The land on those ten courses, has been untouched green land for 100 years. Black rock was an old rock quarry used for business purposes. Boston a similar situation, Miron had to demolish a lot of rock. I am not sure about os, but i know that it was built recently, and therefor the land hasn't been sitting in place, for very long.


If you have played 7 of the 10 courses i listed, you've played the best. Ask anyone in the state, and they agree. The rankings are rankings. Not to pick on you Brad, but you have only played Eastward Ho! and Dedham a total of three times. I have played dedham atleast 5 times, and eastward ho! once. What makes Brad's ranking "better" or more "correct" than mine?

I believe it was logos, the greek philosphers coined; truth comes from reason, and reason comes from you.

love the old, hate the new, no ranking is ever going to change that

Thanks Travis.  Once again, I haven't played any courses in MA, so my opinions have been formed by what I've read and seen on this site and elsewhere.  However, it's a little difficult to take your rankings serious seeing that you seem to disregard any course recently built, irrespective of how good it may be.

Why such a distaste for modern courses?

[Travis Dewire]

Brad....YOUR KILLIN ME!!! I wanted to put Dedham first!

I can see what your saying about the two. When did you play EAstward Ho!? I know they are in a process of a tree removal program to open up the views and the course. I am sure this will only aid the wind. The time i played, the wind was down, so scoring was no problem at all.

I can see what you are saying with Dedham, but I disagree. I feel that the course can bite you hard, regardless if you are playing well, or poorly. It lends itself to recovery, and death. No better set of green contours that I have played in the state. I just have so much fun everytime I go there. The one time I played tcc, I was bored as can be. Great that it was old and felt untouched, but every hole i was hitting into little circular greens. I have more fun on the primrose. I had more fun when I played hole 1 on primrose to green 2, a hole from the open layout. blind tee shot gotta hit a hard draw. Then a blind 5 iron carry over water, can only see the top of the flag...no we havin fun! I think it gets tough narrowing things down to the best. Tcc, myopia, worcester, dedham, and salem, have to be the five best, do you agree? If you played worcester, you would love it. It is a freaking BEAST!!! But then where does that leave kittansett, bb, essex, eastward ho!, and the others??? Charles RiveR?

[Sean Leary]

Travis,

By the way, you would hate Sand Hills, Pac Dunes, Ballyneal and Friars Head. They are all new and yucky..Ick. Ponkapoag is way better.

[Travis Dewire]

LOL seannny!! My mind is so open in so many other ways, this is just not one of them haha! !

Have you ever felt the difference in your foot, between ground settled for many, many years, as apposed to sod recently laid, or recently grown? That does it for me, really gets me going. I love feeling the earth, the contours formed by years or frost, and underground roots and water passages. When you build a course, this is all destroyed, the course built, and your ball is going around hopin on cement. I.E Black Rock. Hey, Silva did a great job here, not a bad design by any means, pretty enjoyable to play, and difficult too. But I felt like I was walking through one of those gravel crushing business you know where the sand/gravel goes up the converyor belt to the top you know one of those. I was not inspired to ever return. And I was young then, I went into this course with a very open mind, thinking it was going to be AWESOME!!!

I love history, I obsess over it, more than I should. I hold history in too high of a regard, and it is certainly one of my downfalls. These courses in MA have such rich, rich history. It is often difficult for me to regard a course as great, with a poor history. I guess that is how my mind works - lol i would never be asked to a rater!!! For instance Taconic GC. Built by Stiles and Van Kleek (possible ross overseeing them, or helping in some capacity this has been mentioned in their history) Not sure what tournaments have played there, but I think there may have been atleast one USGA event, if not there have been tons of MGA and NEPGA events. Course is owned by williams College, built for the college, and you can only join the "club" (only a small out of date locker room and pious eating area) if you are a graduate of Williams. so here we have this INSANE course, built in the corner of MA, ten minutes from NY, 5 minutes from VT, built for Williams College, one of the crazies elite schools our country has to offer, founded in middle of the 1800's. That is history you dont get at Boston Golf club, or the International.

[George Freeman]

LOL seannny!! My mind is so open in so many other ways, this is just not one of them haha! !

Have you ever felt the difference in your foot, between ground settled for many, many years, as apposed to sod recently laid, or recently grown? That does it for me, really gets me going. I love feeling the earth, the contours formed by years or frost, and underground roots and water passages. When you build a course, this is all destroyed, the course built, and your ball is going around hopin on cement. I.E Black Rock. Hey, Silva did a great job here, not a bad design by any means, pretty enjoyable to play, and difficult too. But I felt like I was walking through one of those gravel crushing business you know where the sand/gravel goes up the converyor belt to the top you know one of those. I was not inspired to ever return. And I was young then, I went into this course with a very open mind, thinking it was going to be AWESOME!!!

I love history, I obsess over it, more than I should. I hold history in too high of a regard, and it is certainly one of my downfalls. These courses in MA have such rich, rich history. It is often difficult for me to regard a course as great, with a poor history. I guess that is how my mind works - lol i would never be asked to a rater!!! For instance Taconic GC. Built by Stiles and Van Kleek (possible ross overseeing them, or helping in some capacity this has been mentioned in their history) Not sure what tournaments have played there, but I think there may have been atleast one USGA event, if not there have been tons of MGA and NEPGA events. Course is owned by williams College, built for the college, and you can only join the "club" (only a small out of date locker room and pious eating area) if you are a graduate of Williams. so here we have this INSANE course, built in the corner of MA, ten minutes from NY, 5 minutes from VT, built for Williams College, one of the crazies elite schools our country has to offer, founded in middle of the 1800's. That is history you dont get at Boston Golf club, or the International.

Haha, like I said, it's a little tough for me to take your rankings seriously 

[Travis Dewire]

Travis,

By the way, you would hate Sand Hills, Pac Dunes, Ballyneal and Friars Head. They are all new and yucky..Ick. Ponkapoag is way better.

i like you sean!!!! ponky is aweeeeesome! you serious!!! LOL always had fun there. Wanted oedipus rex my eyes at Tom Fazio's International courses The Oaks. I was told by the member on the first hole, that a big thing Tom does is hide the cart paths so you cant see them from the tee. I LOL'd in his face, if i had my way, there would be no cart parths, carts only for timers, and injured players. No need for carts in golf.

I would certainly tell you I would love those courese. Would love old Macdonald too. There are lots of many new courses that I would love no question. But, I may prefer St Louis CC, just a state over, over Sand Hills. Course was built much longer ago, by Raynor, for his elitist blue blooded friends, who more likely than not, had their hands in the business and commerce of St. Lois, that many residents still use and rely on today.

[Travis Dewire]

That is why they are mine! LOL you couldn't pay me to go back to some of these courses that get ranked by Golf Digest !!!!!!

If you prefer Boston Golf Club over Taconic YOU DONT HAVE A PULSE!!!!!!

[George Freeman]

If you prefer Boston Golf Club over Taconic YOU DONT HAVE A PULSE!!!!!!

I thought you haven't played BGC?

[Brad Tufts]

Travis,

Never have I said in any of my posts that my opinion was gospel.  I was disagreeing with your thoughts for sake of furthering the discussion.  Yes, I have played those courses 3 times total, but I'm not sure playing them 7 times total is much different (and I'm up 2-1 on EH!,  ).  My point on EH and DP was only that I scored very well on both from the wrong fairway half the time.  My recovery skills are not that great...I just felt that you could hit it anywhere.  I'm not saying they are bad or anything...just not quite the complete test the others are.  All my opinion.

I probably need another play at Dedham to see why you are holding it in such high regard.  I enjoyed my day there, but all I saw was a cool, quirky course that technology has passed by.  I mean there are 8 par fours between 360 and 415, and a par five that is 441.

Forgive me, but any Mass. top 10 without BGC or OS is nuts!  I would suggest you check them out if you get the chance at some point.  I just cannot imagine there are more than a few courses in Mass. better than those two.

Black Rock is not everyone's cup of tea.  Personally I found it interesting barring a couple odd holes.  I would put most of the courses we have mentioned above it, but it isn't terrible by any stretch.

Can you explain this below?  I'm curious what you mean...just trying to clarify.

"Simple fact is this. The land on those ten courses, has been untouched green land for 100 years. Black rock was an old rock quarry used for business purposes. Boston a similar situation, Miron had to demolish a lot of rock. I am not sure about os, but i know that it was built recently, and therefor the land hasn't been sitting in place, for very long."

[Brad Tufts]

Travis...here's my MA top 10 that I posted earlier...

Personally, of the 20 on the GD list, I have not played Nantucket, Hyannisport, Worcester, Oyster Harbors, and Sankaty.  I "would think" (yet do not know) at least a couple of those would be high on my list based on reviews and pictures, but that will hold off till I can see them.  My personal Mass. Top 10 would go thusly, out of those I have played:

1.  TCC championship combo...I have played the tourney rota, but oddly, this layout is always rated as #1 in Mass. when the tourney configuration is rarely in play.
2.  Essex
3.  Myopia
4.  Boston GC
5.  Old Sandwich
6.  Kittansett
7.  Salem
8.  Concord (not enough votes yet to make the state list I bet)
9.  Taconic (have not seen since Hanse work though)
10.  Winchester CC

[Brad Tufts]

That is why they are mine! LOL you couldn't pay me to go back to some of these courses that get ranked by Golf Digest !!!!!!

If you prefer Boston Golf Club over Taconic YOU DONT HAVE A PULSE!!!!!!

Haha...I have played Taconic about 40 times, and after one play I prefer Boston Golf Club.  I admittedly haven't seen Taconic since the Mass. Amateur in 2005 or 2006, so before the Hanse work was carried out.  Taconic is a great track, but I liked BGC a bit better.  Admittedly, a course you haven't seen in a few years dims in the mind, and a course you have just seen becomes fresh.  When I look at the list I just posted, the second 5 is jam-packed pretty closely there, and only separated by personal preference.  All GREAT courses.

I see that you have an "auld sod" bias, and I do a bit too, but I try to push the two eras together and come out with one list, but I admit it is difficult sometimes.

I'm enjoying killing you! 

[Jim Franklin]

Nothing like dealing with someone without an open mind. So much for "open discussion".

[Sean Leary]

Travis,

I understand. I grew up playing Woburn CC, Sandy Burr, and leo j martin (back nine so I didn't have to pay). So when I played Winchester CC for the first time I was APPALLED. The grass was green and there was sand in the bunkers. So weird. And people wore collared shirts and pants that weren't Wranglers. Just horrible.