Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Brad Tufts]

I really need to get some more experience in Dirty Jersey, my current ranking, involving only those I have played in NJ is:

Plainfield
ACCC
Twisted Dune
Seaview Bay (saw it on a very tough conditioning day right before aeration...didnt submit a rating)
Due Process
TPC Jasna Polana
Fairmount CC

A couple good ones in there, but so sad it is!

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

What do you mean "Dirty Jersey?"

The best by far of the lot you mentioned is Plainfield -- the rest are nothing more than support players and likely maybe one, possibly two, might sneak into the rear porition of my personal top 25 list for the Garden State.

Not to beat you up -- it is "sad."

Contact me if you wish to change that.

[Eric Smith]

So long Long Cove? I just noticed it didn't make this latest list. It's been on there for as long as I can remember.

09-10    73
07-08    78
05-06    71

Curious if overall raters' opinions of Long Cove have changed that much or is it that the grouping at 70ish-100+ is just that tight?

[Matt_Ward]

Eric:

The situation with Long Cove should have happened to other even higher rated courses.

It just seems that those in the 70-100 position get less "brownie" points -- those that have hosted majors or are seen regularly on TV get a benefit. Frankly, why Congressional stays among the top 100 is tied to what I just said.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Typing the 60+ courses that are below Engineers in greatness is not feasable.  Among the bottom 60 that are better are Ballyneal (near perfection in my eyes),Plainfield, LACC, Boston, and maybe Kittansett.
Having taken 2 PGA golf course architecture classes with Fazio and listened to another lecture by him, there is no way he can create greatness except by idiot savant occurance.  Bobby Weed and Brian Silva were the other speakers in the class--Fazio talked about cart path hiding, making sure par 3's were slightly downhill or level and how bunkers and aesthetics were crucial.  Strategy was blundered, especially when answering questions.  On the other hand, strategy, angle of attack, deception, ect were the meat of both Weed and Silva's lectures.  They used great holes to show how taking out bunkers and trees had made the holes more strategic.  Fazio was touting the engineering accomplishments of a course in Hawaii. Peple are seeing things if they think Fazio can top the greatness of the old masters and some of the new masters who particpate on this site

[Brad Tufts]

Brad:

What do you mean "Dirty Jersey?"

The best by far of the lot you mentioned is Plainfield -- the rest are nothing more than support players and likely maybe one, possibly two, might sneak into the rear porition of my personal top 25 list for the Garden State.

Not to beat you up -- it is "sad."

Contact me if you wish to change that.

I have a few friends who call it that, but they are usually those NYC-resident Jersey hater-types.

Hope to add to my experience over the next few years.  I've focused on more far-flung venues over recent years.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

I always laugh at NYers who critique Jersey but run over to the state to play their public golf here because the state of public golf in The Empire is so non descript with Bethpage Black and Red and Tallgrass excepted.

RMD:

Very funny putdown on TF -- but you never said how many TF courses you have played and if you can please list for me the ten best TF courses you have played that you liked the best. The man and his team have talent and have denonstrated that -- not on the batting average equivalent of a C&C but far more than you have others to believe.

I am not "seeing things' regarding his talent -- they are there. One of his best and frankly ignored is another layout I would place among the nation's best is his private creation at Pronghorn in Bend, OR. The Nicklaus layout there is good -- but the TF one is quite beyond that.

You say it's not feasible to list the 60 below Engineers but c'mon that's a tapdance around YOUR OWN statement.

Robert, some people make great presentations and others don't. I could care less what people say in lecture presentations and look at what they actually create. You side-stepped the issue on having Engineers ahead of both Sebonack and Bethpage Black. I don' doubt the course has a lot to offer but you are simply elevating a layout far beyond what it provides.

If you want to talk about an injuistice I can place Essex County CC in West Orange, NJ among the upper echelon of courses in the metro NYC area and gets absolutely zero attention -- not even rated among the top 20 in the State of NJ by GD. How sad and utterly pitiful.

[Anthony_Nysse]

So long Long Cove? I just noticed it didn't make this latest list. It's been on there for as long as I can remember.

09-10    73
07-08    78
05-06    71

Curious if overall raters' opinions of Long Cove have changed that much or is it that the grouping at 70ish-100+ is just that tight?

  Unfortunately, Eric, LCC has been slipping the ranking for years, as it has in Golfweek. I know WHY Harbour Town is ranked higher than LCC, but LCC is a MUCH better golf course, they just do not host a PGA Event.  I my be a little bias, but I think that LCC is the best private course in the state of South Carolina, and SHOULD be sitting behind TOC as #2 in the state. Accessability may be an issue for raters as LCC has A LOT of member play.
  As a side note, I don't even think that HT is the #2 best Pete Dye course in thie Hilton Head area....

[John Kirk]

Having taken 2 PGA golf course architecture classes with Fazio and listened to another lecture by him, there is no way he can create greatness except by idiot savant occurrence.  Bobby Weed and Brian Silva were the other speakers in the class--Fazio talked about cart path hiding, making sure par 3's were slightly downhill or level and how bunkers and aesthetics were crucial.  Strategy was blundered, especially when answering questions.  On the other hand, strategy, angle of attack, deception, etc. were the meat of both Weed and Silva's lectures.  They used great holes to show how taking out bunkers and trees had made the holes more strategic.  Fazio was touting the engineering accomplishments of a course in Hawaii. People are seeing things if they think Fazio can top the greatness of the old masters and some of the new masters who participate on this site.

Rob,

I just played a top 100 course designed by Fazio that I disliked quite a bit.  Set in a stunning setting, it was difficult but not fun.  I found that the visual cues one desires on approach shots weren't present.  These visual cues, present on the best designs, give hints as to where to aim, and where to miss, and whether the hole is uphill and downhill.  This course was not deceptive, it was indecipherable.  It was also pretty narrow in places, where acreage was not an issue.

I also found a lack of visual cues on approach shots at Martis Camp, and don't really understand the high Golfweek ranking.  There were several holes with a complete lack of discernible cues or hints as to where your shot should miss.  I think most great courses give you that.

[Jim Franklin]

JK -

Please keep the treehouse informed. Which Fazio didn't you like? You mentioned Martis Camp.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Not going to let you off the hook that e-z.

I played Martis Camp and really enjoyed it -- what specific holes / features are you talking about?

Too many people on this site broadbrush and make sweeping comments.

I know you won't do that -- right ?

[John Kirk]

Great.  I'm being called to the carpet, and I don't feel like answering.

I don't know, Matt.  My memory of Martis Camp is rather fuzzy at this point.  I played it last May and had the same impression that I did at the course I played recently.  Here's what I wrote back then:

I played Martis Camp, Lahontan and Clear Creek this May.  Nice trip.

Martis Camp is a sweet development, but didn't quite do it for me as a golf course.  It's quite difficult.  It follows the modern thinking of wide landing areas and challenging greenside play.  This may sound like a strange critique of a Tom Fazio design, but I found the "look" of the approach shots somewhat unsettling.  I didn't feel there were sufficient cues presented to the golfer, as to where the miss should be, for instance.

...

All three present a lovely environment to play the game.

#10 at Martis Camp was an example of a hole where I remember not seeing where I should miss, if I wanted to play conservatively, and have an uphill two putt for par.  But it was a general impression, and I'm allowed to generalize.   Maybe #9 and #18 gave you a good idea.  Neither of these courses give you a steady diet of visual cues to determine how much uphill or downhill the holes are, and where the good miss is.  In that respect, I feel these two courses should be downgraded for aesthetics, because that is aesthetic beauty in my eyes.

Greens were very difficult to read, and if you missed on the wrong side, getting into the hole in two shots was almost impossible.

[Jim Franklin]

John -

I appreciate your honesty.

[Kalen Braley]

Great.  I'm being called to the carpet, and I don't feel like answering.

I don't know, Matt.  My memory of Martis Camp is rather fuzzy at this point.  I played it last May and had the exact same overall impression that I did at The Preserve.  Here's what I wrote back then:

I played Martis Camp, Lahontan and Clear Creek this May.  Nice trip.

Martis Camp is a sweet development, but didn't quite do it for me as a golf course.  It's quite difficult.  It follows the modern thinking of wide landing areas and challenging greenside play.  This may sound like a strange critique of a Tom Fazio design, but I found the "look" of the approach shots somewhat unsettling.  I didn't feel there were sufficient cues presented to the golfer, as to where the miss should be, for instance.

...

All three present a lovely environment to play the game.

#10 at Martis Camp was an example of a hole where I remember not seeing where I should miss, if I wanted to play conservatively, and have an uphill two putt for par.  But it was a general impression, and I'm allowed to generalize.   Maybe #9 and #18 gave you a good idea.  Neither of these courses give you a steady diet of visual cues to determine how much uphill or downhill the holes are, and where the good miss is.  In that respect, I feel these two courses should be downgraded for aesthetics, because that is aesthetic beauty in my eyes.

At The Preserve, greens were very difficult to read, and if you missed on the wrong side, getting into the hole in two shots was almost impossible.

John,

Couldn't you claim almost all of those same things about The Old Course? 

Not sure where to hit it several times during the round?  Check
Blind tee shots?  Check
Missing on wrong side of green making up and down almost impossible?  Check
Not being able to see several hidden bunkers?  Check

[John Kirk]

Sure, Kalen, you could make that claim, and draw a parallel between the two.

Both Fazio courses were very tough the first time around, and would become easier with repeat play.  They possess a home course advantage.  I was a club short on approaches 10-12 times yesterday.  I only hit a couple of greens.

[Garland Bayley]

...Having taken 2 PGA golf course architecture classes with Fazio and listened to another lecture by him, there is no way he can create greatness except by idiot savant occurance.  Bobby Weed and Brian Silva were the other speakers in the class--Fazio talked about cart path hiding, making sure par 3's were slightly downhill or level and how bunkers and aesthetics were crucial.  Strategy was blundered, especially when answering questions. ...

If you read Fazio's book, you understand he is about give them what they think they want instead of what they need.
Bahto's book would point out that MacDonald is the opposite.

[Matt_Ward]

John K:

Here's what YOU said ...

"I also found a lack of visual cues on approach shots at Martis Camp, and don't really understand the high Golfweek ranking.  There were several holes with a complete lack of discernible cues or hints as to where your shot should miss.  I think most great courses give you that."

Help me out because I need something a bit more than the quick generalized statements.

What holes at MC have little or no "visual cues" and please ID the holes that provide "a complete lack of discernible cues or hints to where your shot shoud miss."

I really liked Martis Camp and I saw the course as being quite emphatic on what the golfer should be doing to improve his position as they move towards the green.

I'm happy -- and quite eager -- to discuss details. Far too often people on this site use vague and sweeping comments on TF courses but don't do likewise with others. Look forward to your usual detailed replies.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Fazio courses played--27
       Fazio top 10---World Woods
                                Hudson National
                                Oak Quarry
                                Pelican Hill
                                Ft Myers Airport forgot name of club
                                Turning Stone
                                 Galloway
                                Trump Bedminster
Only World Wooods Pines Barrens would receive a great course rating because it has a great set of greens, solid routing, a good mix of holes, and beautiful aesthetics.  Still, pretty much devoid of strategy. Trump, Hudson, and Galloway can play very hard, but are very weak on strategic design
As for bringing up the Ivory Tower in Fazio's lectures, there needs to be some intellectual thought behind an action.  Read Dye, Jones, Doak among moderns and you will find some depth.  Read Fazio and you will only find fluff.  Perhaps he has had some design associates who have added some strategic elements into his latest courses, but it is missing on all the one's I've played so far.  Everyone loves the cape hole 6th at Trump Bedminster, but the hole is a miss strategically because the fairway is framed on both sides by bunkers.  The hole would be elevated if all buunkers on the right were removed so that the player was not forced to position the ball for optimum angle of attack.  Without the bunkers the player would be lured i to cutti g off too much corner and end up having to carry water to a penninsula green--classic example of a Fazio strategy miss!
as for avoiding the typing of 6o less worthy of greatness compared to Engineers, I mentioned the one's that are more worthy and all that are omitted, plus any Fazio ranked higher and you have Engineers rightful ranking.  Sleepy Hollow is an interesting property that essential exists on 2 different elevation levels with 2 holes that bridge the change--2 and 17. SH is an incredible property that was once a Vanderbilt estate with a cluhpuse that cost the family $2million around 1900.  However, Engineeers uses the lay of the land better than SH mostly because there were only 150 acres to route vs over a 1000 possible acres that SH occupies.
I agree on Essex County and was the one who raved about it several years ago--still not quite as great as Engineers

[Matt_Ward]

RMD:

Appreciate your tapdance AGAIN - Robert, you said -- not me -- that 60 courses in the current GD listing are below Engineers -- please provide such a listing. I have no issue in your grandiose statements but there's no beef -- just wind.

You also AGAIN -- avoid any indepth defense of your contention that Enginees is beyond the likes of both Sebonack and Bethpage Black. You can certainly have an opinion but again there's no basis for it. I did concede that on the whole Engineers has better greens than the Black -- but the gap on the tee shot and approach side for BB is a good ways ahead of Engineers in my mind.

Have you played the existing layout of Sleepy Hollow since the major improvements ? Frankly, the idea that a course that is spread out is less well-routed than a course on lesser amount of acreage is a fine math conclusion but it doesn't mean one is better with a richer diversity of holes. SH takes you on a fantastic journey from one part of the property to the deepest reaches and then returns you to the majestic sites of the Hudson River in the background before bringing you uphill in fine fashion to a superlative closer.

Your portfolio of top tier TF courses is on the light side -- many of them are quite pedestrian and a few lame. No doubt from such a listing you would draw the conclusions you made.

Mine is nearly three times yours -- places like Glenwild, Karsten Creek, Martis Camp, TF at Pronghorn, Dallas National -- and to a lesser extent Wade Hampton and Shadow Creek would be in the mix. I can name several others as well. I also can't count places like Gozzer Ranch and The Alotian which respected people like Jim F and Andy T have weighed in with high marks.

I don't see much with Hudson National -- Pelican Hill is all about "The Frame" and Turning Stone is simply low level stuff at best.

The more recent designs of TF are beyond the empty "frame" and more reliant on critical design details. I could give a rats behind if TF doesn't present spellbinding lectures on his theories -- I judge the value of an architect not by the smoke and mirrors of talk but what's placed in the ground. His more recent works -- have demonstrated that angles, green dimensions, varying shapes and areas just off the putting surfaces are all quite complex and varied.

You lob the charge that all TF is "fluff" -- sure, from your light portfolio of courses played -- most of them are beyond 10+ years that conclusion can be reached. But it demonstrates a charge that is likely outdated.

We agree to disagree about Essex County v Engineers. You need to play what is there NOW. Essex County is one of the best Banks courses one can play -- Bahto and Hanse elevated all the strengths even further and carefully and with smarts minimized the weakness es that were part of a few holes on the front. Besides the back nine at PV -- I don't see a back nine in all of Jersey that can match what Essex's inner half provides. How the astute minds that make up GD's panel see fit NOT to have rated it at all among the state's top 20 is clear proof, in my mind, of their stupidity.

[John Kirk]

Another observation from the cheap seats...

On the Oregon state list, the Nicklaus course at Pronghorn is rated ahead (#5) of the Fazio course (#6).  Let's say I don't disagree.  I thought the Nicklaus course was excellent, a wonderful, diverse examination of one's golfing skills.  The Fazio course may be more attractive, and is also a fine golf course.  But the Nicklaus is its equal, perhaps a bit underrated by the GCA cognoscenti.

I liked Martis Camp better than The Preserve, Matt.  Frankly, I would need to see some pictures to remember all the holes at Martis.  I liked #2 and #4 and #9, for starters.  I thought The Preserve was difficult without being fun to play.  The greens are diabolical, and difficult to interpret where the miss should go from the fairway.  I wish they had been willing to use more of the 80,000 acres, or whatever it is, for the golf course.  It's a bit narrow for the venue.

But I can't engage in a full scale debate here, as I have other things I am writing and enjoying.  So you'll have to settle for my hit-and-run tactics.

[Matt_Ward]

John K:

I am not going to quibble about two courses in OR (Pronghorn) that are quite solid. I see the TF being more than just "attractive" which is always meant to be a negative to TF because few people ascribe much depth to them. The TF at Pronghorn has the better terrain and the richer more deeper array of holes and hole types. TF did more than provide the "Frame" as he has done with much earlier efforts elsewhere.

John, you are the guy who made clear comments on Martis Camp. I just asked you for the details to back that up. We do agree on The Preserve - but the issue is on Martis Camp.

You say you can't engage in a "full scale debate" -- never wanted one. But the commuter approach you take -- jump on a train with certain comments -- then just as quickly jump off leave you in a lesser position of credibility without some meaningful details.

No offense -- but c'mon nuff of the "I have other things." That's a dodge ball tactic -- if you can write something initially supplying a bit more details isn't going to require a herculean effort.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Matt,
what do you not understand about my mentioning 5 courses plus all Fazio's are inferior to Engineers.  Look at the. Bottom 60 and those courses are not quite as great as Engineers. 
As for difficulty of approaches and tee shots, Engineers is far from a pushover.  Again, it is the quality of architecture at work that qwe are discussing.  You want tough driving-play Stanwich-very far from great course, but brutally tough.  One problem with Bethpage is that the fairways have never been restored to their proper width. And I have repeatedly pointed out over the past few years how its greatness continues to be ruined.  Sebonic has a problem with 8,9,and 17.  As stated earlier, at some point. It will achieve super greatness--it is still a work in progress.
Matt, you probably need to read or reread the books by Thomas, Doak, and Mackensie and then you will appreciate how width and angle of attack work.  After that, you will find that Engineers is an architectural masterpiece!

[Matt_Ward]

RMD:

You base CLEAR AND DEFINITIVE negative comments on TF and his design work solyely from a limited portfolio of courses - a number of which are clearly nondescript and could easily lead you or anyone else for that matter to thing that what he does is clearly low level stuff.

You stated you have played 27 TF courses -- OK -- my perspective comes from 75+ and I did state the key layouts that are worthy of top 100 acclaim -- no less than 6-7 would make my personal top 100. I have backed that up with a number of clear examples among his latest efforts. Jim F and Andy T went further with his work at Gozzer Ranch and The Alotian Club.

You also throw TF under the bus because he doesn't project so well at lecture type events. Frankly, I don't care about that side of things. What matters more -- and should matter more -- is what the guy and his team deliver in the ground.

I've played no less than 80 of the current GD top 100 -- I have questioned a number of the layouts that have been left in but frankly Engineers has enough competition in the metro NYC area to be mentioned. I can't see Engineers remotely sniffing a top ten or 15 posiition in the NYC metro area because of the competition that exists here. Correction to provide -- I am not a fan of The Stanwich -- plenty others in CT are worth my time playing. Agreed it is tough but not much else.

Bethpage Black is still beyond Engineers even with the fairway element you mejtioned. Sure, they should be wideneed but the whole of the course is greater than what you find in Engineers. I do agree with you on Sebonack's 8th hole but the rest is frst rate and is a good bit beyond what you find in Engineers.

I have read the book you mentioned and letme state that I do like Engineers -- RMD, you need to try to realize the word perspctive and portoflio -- both of which you need to upgrade in order to have the standing to place Engineers among the top 100 in the USA. I do respect your thought -- likely we will agree to disagree on this front. I also appreciate width and angle of attack. Your fondness for classic design is understood by me -- I think you give far too little credit and appreaciation for the modern style designs and TF does have a few of note.

[Greg Tallman]

So long Long Cove? I just noticed it didn't make this latest list. It's been on there for as long as I can remember.

09-10    73
07-08    78
05-06    71

Curious if overall raters' opinions of Long Cove have changed that much or is it that the grouping at 70ish-100+ is just that tight?

  Unfortunately, Eric, LCC has been slipping the ranking for years, as it has in Golfweek. I know WHY Harbour Town is ranked higher than LCC, but LCC is a MUCH better golf course, they just do not host a PGA Event.  I my be a little bias, but I think that LCC is the best private course in the state of South Carolina, and SHOULD be sitting behind TOC as #2 in the state. Accessability may be an issue for raters as LCC has A LOT of member play.
  As a side note, I don't even think that HT is the #2 best Pete Dye course in thie Hilton Head area...

Never found accessibility to be any kind of issue at Long Cove, not the hardest ticket in town.

WHY is it that HT is rated higher than Long Cove? You say you know, please share. Your bais against ahrbour town seems to have some strange motivation Anthony, what is it?

And yes for the record I am a fan of Harbour Town and not so much of Long Cove which I could honestly see not being in my Top 5 in the HH area. I just don't get it. I see maybe 4 or five holes at LCC that are different from any of the other 100 courses in the area... and I don't include 5 as I do not see that as a golf hole. My good holes at LCC are 3,4,14,16.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Greg,
  The term accessibility at LCC is different than what you're thinking. They have so much member play, that it can be sometimes  be tough to match up 'non-member" with a 3 some of members, because, well, there are something just not any spots open. I can remember standingon #4 with Mr. Dye and him commenting that he designed LCC for 65-70 rounds a day. They do much more than that. LCC has a VERY active golfing membership, certainly not seasonaly at all.
  #16 is the most boring hole at LCC-I always thought it was a weakness.
  As for Harbour Town-It shouldnt be any secret that they get some "Sahalee treatment" because of the PGA Event.