Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Brad Tufts]

Hopefully a few days hiatus has better positioned me to re-enter this thread.  Still haven't played Old Mac!  Kidding....kidding...I think we/I have done enough of that.

Also, Brad, maybe you can help clarify for me the MA state rankings. Whatsup with these? I understand that being in the top 100, automatically puts Boston and O.S at #3 and 4 respectively. But why are those even in the top 100? Because they are brand new? TPC Boston at #10? Hyannisport at 11, Turner Hill at 14, Charles River at 16? Oyster Harbors at 15? I do believe that these courses are entitled to high praise, but not at the expense of other, better courses. This reads corruption and foul play. Oyster Harbors 15th in the state? Where they ever ranked before Doak did his restoration there? I am very happy to see the International move to #19, with all that said.

Personally, of the 20 on the list, I have not played Nantucket, Hyannisport, Worcester, Oyster Harbors, and Sankaty.  I "would think" (yet do not know) at least a couple of those would be high on my list based on reviews and pictures, but that will hold off till I can see them.  My personal Mass. Top 10 would go thusly, out of those I have played:

1.  TCC championship combo...I have played the tourney rota, but oddly, this layout is always rated as #1 in Mass. when the tourney configuration is rarely in play.
2.  Essex
3.  Myopia
4.  Boston GC
5.  Old Sandwich
6.  Kittansett
7.  Salem
8.  Concord (not enough votes yet to make the state list I bet)
9.  Taconic (have not seen since Hanse work though)
10.  Winchester CC
  
I do find Charles River, Eastward Ho, Brae Burn, and the Orchards charming, but they are too short for me to be high on the list.  Essex and Myopia are borderline length-wise but are just too fun.  This is where the Resistance to Scoring comes into play.  Of the current top 20 just released, I would remove Turner Hill and Indian Pond, and push Vineyard and TPC toward the bottom of the Top 20.  For some of these that I have played, my vote may have fallen off already.


Worcester CC is why I don't get. #7 last year, to #13 this year. The course is somewhere toward the latter quater of a multi year RON PRICHARD PLAN. So there is some new grass beginning to root in place of old trees. But bottom line the course looks insane with the work already begun, and is only going to look even better. So that makes the course drop 6 places? IMO Worcester should be up ahead of those new southerncoast courses, as well as a few others that failed to make the grade. Dedham C and PC for instance??? What about Taconic, oak hill, or country club of pittsfield? Doraters even go out there??

I can't speak to Worcester, but it did play pretty short for the Mass. Am. a few years ago, but that could have been the course setup.  Also, I would add that the falling off of old votes and the adding of new votes will change the ratings from year-to-year, and the differences in some of the state lists numerically is likely very small.  The difference between 7 and 13 is probably very small.  As for Dedham and CC of Pittsfield, they are not candidates, and in my opinion would not factor in the Top 20 due to the fact that they are both 6300 yards.  Oak Hill, in my opinion is very nice, but shouldn't be near the top of the Mass. list.  Taconic I have listed above even before the improvements.

Brad Tufts! My Massachusetts born man from Tedesco!!  Opens on Friday!  But alas, not a candidate, and would be in the "next 20" anyways.

I have seen pictures of O.S, have a bunch of friends that loop there and go out anyday after 3. Brutually long, think it hits 7,000 from the tips, beautiful fescue lots of bunkers, lots of earth moved. Good course, great condition, looks aesthetic to me. Same with Boston GC. Hear great things, but you couldn't pay me to join either club. Very expensive too, not sure what they are charging now though. They are very good courses, but in a state rich with some many truly masterful golf courses, its tough to see these hitting #3 and 4 in the state. Old Sandwich was designed by Coore and Crenshaw, so of course that gives it prescident in today's ranking system. Boston GC was built by Gil Hanse, and has only been open since about 2008. I'm not sure why, but this course has been biased from the beginning.

Playing in tournaments around the state, you hear lots of golfers "drooling" over boston golf club. I have never played it, never been, and only maybe seen one hole. I know it to be improper and judgemental, but you can learn a lot about a course by whom is praising it and whom is not. The people praising the course to me, seem like they would rank The International's Fazio course, very well!!!

I'm of the opinion that BGC and OS are both VERY good.  My problem is separating them.  They are located close to one another, designed in a similar style favoring the natural look and random contouring.  I've thought hard about this several times and I go back and forth in every conversation on which I favor.  I do think they are both more engaging than Salem and Kittansett.  Having played both courses, it is interesting that the same folks would favor BGC and International Fazio.  The latter is a good layout, but the former is much more interesting on a hole-by-hole basis.  They are both highly challenging.  The US Amateur qualifying medalist last year at BGC was +1 over two rounds, and I played a round in the Ouimet in 2003 or so at Int-Fazio and shot a 75 that was oddly among the best scores of the day at +3.

[Jim Colton]

Received the issue yesterday and thought it was well done.  One thing I realize is there is an awful lot of courses I need to see yet.  The problem is that many are private and exclusive.  Thus, you need to be either very well connected, and access seeker (which I’ve done) or, apparently, a rater.  So while the raters do get beat up a bit, they do have access that many of us don’t.  To me, that's an inherent flaw in the process.   

Tony,

Those are strong words for a guy who played Sand Hills with me just last year.  Where do you want to play that you feel you can't but still accepts any rater on a cold call?  There is no such course.

My updated list:

1.   Sand Hills
2.   Ballyneal
3.   Sutton Bay
4.   Interlachen CC
5.   World Woods (Pine Barrens)
6.   We Ko Pa (Saguaro)
7.   Torrey Pines (South)
8.   Hazeltine National
9.   Hawktree
10.   Wild Horse
11.   Vista Verde
12.   Grayhawk (Talon)
13.   Deacon’s Lodge
14.   Couer d’Alene C.C.
15.   Links of N.D.
16.   Pelican Hill (South before Renovations)
17.   TPC Scottsdale
18.   Old Works
19.   Bully Pulpit
20.   Eagle Bend
21.   Raven at So. Mt.
22.   We Ko Pa (Cholla)
23.   Whirlwind (Devil’s Claw)
24.   Prairie Green (SD)
25.   Powder Horn

Riviera and Rustic Canyon in May
Giants Ridge/Fortune Bay/Classic-June/July

and who knows, hopefully something else

Tony, seriously when you said "us", which group were you lumping yourself in with? You don't seem to be doing too poorly for yourself.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Thanks for your detailed comments on MA golf. The sad fact is that GD has woeful state ratings too.

Too much of the state ratings are influenced by one time plays -- predominantly coming from the out of area folks.

I can tell you this GD fared no better in NJ too.

[Sean Leary]

Too much of the state ratings are influenced by one time plays -- predominantly coming from the out of area folks.

Curious why you think this. Wouldn't it be the opposite since all the local raters would play it? Home town bias?

[Mark Saltzman]

Too much of the state ratings are influenced by one time plays -- predominantly coming from the out of area folks.

Curious why you think this. Wouldn't it be the opposite since all the local raters would play it? Home town bias?

Sean,

I agree, I would have thought that state rankings would be most impacted by local raters.  When a rater comes in from another location, he likely will want to try to play the big names in any given location (those that would make the top 100).  It is less likely that they would play some of the second tier courses (those that make the state list but not the top 100).

I would also think that certain locations, like the courses in WY or ID would get a lot of one-time play raters.  People probably try to do a tour of the best each region has to offer, playing each course once (or maybe 36 in a day).  I doubt there are many GD raters that actually live in those regions.

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

The one-time plays are done by folks who want to play the "headliners" and often times they overlook so much that the regiular players can really truly appreciate from multiple plays.

NJ is a joke state ratings -- no doubt PV is #1 and Plainfield is #2 but there are plenty of holes. The failure to have the new and improved Essex County CC among even the top 20i is hilarious for its utter stupidity.

The more competitive the state is -- like NY, or NJ or PA the less likely GD has the goods to deliver because the one-time play type people have a tendency to skew the results. In less populated places there's less overall competition so the results aren't that bad and frankly are fairly spot on in my mind.

You say "home town bias" but the reality is that the local person has seen the courses plenty of times and is not subject to the "aura" of such places. Give you a great example -- GD has Sleepy Hollow among the state's best but it should easily be rated ahead of Hudson National. The work there to bring the course to full potential has been nothing short of brilliant. Hudson National is the epitome of Tom Fazio at the height of his "framing" style. The outside looks great it's the details that are missing. They are not missing at Sleepy Hollow. Locals can see that more clearly.

[Tony Weiler]

Jim and John, my comment was a bit "unartfully" said.  What I think I was trying to say was that if raters are allowed access to exclusive courses that I as Joe Six Pack am not, there has to be some sort of bias in the results based on the "gratitude" for that access.  As a result, IMHO this seems to be a reason that the list can be a bit skewed, and a course that allows raters, but not JSP, debuts at No. 14.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  I did say the aritcle was well done, and I actually really do enjoy the lists and the variances in all three.  I think I'll stay out of these threads! 

And yes, I have been blessed as a result of this site to play some awfully good private courses in the last year.  For that, I am grateful and should probably stop my bitching!

[John Kavanaugh]

Tony,

Joe six pack doesn't care about these lists.  If he did Golfweek would sell full page ads to Bud Light and not the Dormie Club.

[Jud_T]

JK,

If Joe Sixpack didn't care about these lists GD wouldn't run them as a feature issue, they'd just run "4012 Ways to Cure Your Weak Slice" again.

[Jim Franklin]

Tony,

Joe six pack doesn't care about these lists.  If he did Golfweek would sell full page ads to Bud Light and not the Dormie Club.

I cared about the lists before I was ever on the panel so at least Jim six pack cared. I know most everyone at my club cares about the list as well.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tony..
You certainly do not need to stay off these theads, your opinion is as valued as anybodys and in my opinion even as a rater you certainly have a good point, the rating are most certainly scewed in so many ways by access.
 Certainly there are those courses on the list..and even other lists that only allow a certain" clientele" on thier "hallowed" grounds and dont mind letting you know how privelaged you are to be there, on the basis  of other similar individuals with similar status being not so blessed...if there are people on this site who do not choose to see the bias in that...so be it...

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,

If Joe Sixpack didn't care about these lists GD wouldn't run them as a feature issue, they'd just run 4012 ways to cure your weak slice again.

Jud,

Have you seen the issue in person?  The lists are buried behind a cover of hitting the driver further.  There is a pic of some big orange golfer on the cover instead of a photo of the Alotian with a fake ocean backdrop.

[Jud_T]

JK,

If Joe Sixpack didn't care about these lists GD wouldn't run them as a feature issue, they'd just run 4012 ways to cure your weak slice again.

Jud,

Have you seen the issue in person?  The lists are buried behind a cover of hitting the driver further.  There is a pic of some big orange golfer on the cover instead of a photo of the Alotian with a fake ocean backdrop.

Yes I subscribe only to obsess over the list, but admittedly I'd already read it here so I just scanned it over lunch..

[John Kavanaugh]

Tony,

Joe six pack doesn't care about these lists.  If he did Golfweek would sell full page ads to Bud Light and not the Dormie Club.

I cared about the lists before I was ever on the panel so at least Jim six pack cared. I know most everyone at my club cares about the list as well.

Diamond Jim,

Please, the only reason your club cares about the lists is because you were unfairly booted off after hosting a Senior Open.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

instead of a photo of the Alotian with a fake ocean backdrop.
 
 
 
JK,
I may not agree with all you say...and pray I never do...but that is classic....

[Jim Franklin]

Tony,

Joe six pack doesn't care about these lists.  If he did Golfweek would sell full page ads to Bud Light and not the Dormie Club.

I cared about the lists before I was ever on the panel so at least Jim six pack cared. I know most everyone at my club cares about the list as well.

Diamond Jim,

Please, the only reason your club cares about the lists is because you were unfairly booted off after hosting a Senior Open.

They actually cared about it before we ever hosted the Senior Players.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim F:

Can you tell me why specifically -- that you keep Shoreacres and Somerset Hills -- have you ever played Morris County in NJ? Or seen what Bahto / Hanse have done with Essex County (NJ) recently? How do you let slide the fact that Shoreacreas has no less than six dull holes ?

Matt -

I think Somerset Hills has some of the best Tillinghast greens I have played. In fact, #14 is my favorite green Tillie built. As for #18 being a downer, I like a course that finishes with a birdie hole. It is good for match play. I believe Tillie felt the same way. Sure #18 is short, but in a tie match going into the 18th hole, birdie opportunity is there.

As for Shoreacres, again I think these are some of the best greens I have played. The course starts like a classical music piece and builds from there. It then finishes with a the same way it started. The course ebbs and flows. It is not an all out affront to your senses, and I think it deserves to be Top 100.

I have not played Forsgate or Morris so I cannot provide an opinion. I do look forward to playing them at some point as I value your opinion, but Somerset and Shoracres are Top 100 for me.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Shoreacres is a great 5 hole Raynor. The 2nd is a great hole with a wonderful green.  10~12 and 15 are great holes and in the late fall you can see the house off to the right of the 10th green where Cameron reved his fathers prized car out the window of the garage in Ferris B's Day Off.  Unfortunately, it has the worst Alps hole ever, the worst redan, worst Bairritz.  In fact the redan green is so badly oriented that it has no kicker function in the green.  There are so many better RanynorMacBanks that shoukd be ranked higher.

Once again no raters visited Engineers which is easiky better than at least 60 courses in the new rankings

[Matt_Ward]

RMD:

Be curious to know the 60 courses it is better -- please provide if you care to back that statement up.

I have played Engineers and liked it -- are you saying that Engineers is better than what's at Sleepy Hollow to give a New York to New York course comparison ?

We do agree on Shoreacres but I would need to know which Raynor courses you place ahead of it.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Engineers is significantly better than Sleepy Hollow.  There are 4 way off misplaces that I noticed on a cursory glance-Ballyneal, Boston GC, Bandon Trails, and Painfield.  At this point, because I do think it will eventually achieve awesome greatness, Sebonac is not as great as Engineers.  Because of the destruction of 14, 15 green, 9 and 13 fairway bunkers, Bethpage Black falls pretty far down my ranking.

As for greater MacRaynorBanks--Faifield, Fox Chapel, Old White, St Louis, Essex County, Piping Rock, Creek, Forsgate, Sleepy Hollow, Yale, Yeomans Hall, Camargo, and maybe Lookout Mountain, and Whipporwill and Tamarack.

PS. I cannot believe how poorly ranked Somerset Hills and Kittansett ended up

[Cory Lewis]

I can honestly say that I'm shocked up the State by State Rankings for Delaware.  Baywood greens #1?  Are you ****ing kidding me?  An ok to good public course with lots of flowers is #1 ahead of a very good renovated/restored course at Wilmington South, a good Dick Wilson, Bidermann, and another good Wilson, Wilmington North. Those courses are 4,5,6 behind Baywood and the two Nicklaus courses?  Really?

[Matt_Ward]

RMD:

Thanks.

"Significantly better" than Sleepy Hollow ? Surely you jest. Sleepy Hollow has the better land, the better routing and the better diversity of holes / shots to be played. Don't know if you have played SH since the improvements have been done.

One other thing -- you said Engineer's is "easily better" than "60" of the courses listed by GD's top 100. Please knock yourself out and let me know which 60.

Robert, let's get real OK -- Engineer's ahead of Sebonack and Bethpage Black ?

I agree with you on the too high estimation that many have for Shoreacres but Somerset Hills has plenty of weak holes mixed in wiith some really superb stuff. Also, the last hole at the NJ course is a big time dud.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

The last hole is a fun birdie opportunity at Somerset. It is a great hole for match play which is what 95% of the people play. It most likely isn't a stroke hole so scratch players are not giving up a stroke and lesser players can certainly make birdies. To me, that is a good finish. Let the player walk off happy and wanting to play again.






//There is nothing worse than playing the 18th hole and having to give up a shot to someone that is a decent golfer because the 18th is one of the top handicap holes.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Matt, i am very real,  though I have not played Sleepy Hollow since the changes, I used to play it once a week back in 1989 when my good friend wass the pro.  Considering the land, it is very sell routed and does have some great holes.  Still well short of Engoineers which has some of the greatest greens in golf.  As for routu g, Engineers is nothing short of a masteroiece in how the lay of the land was used.  I know for certain that you have not bee there since Tripp Davis began restoration work. And do not know if you played there after Gil Hanse retuned the greens to their proper size---which in many cases was a tripling of green size.  What really was weird 2 years ago is that more trees were removedand the skytop feature of the 7th green restored and npo raters have played and it feel out of the GW 100.  Since then the front bunker on 7 has been removed and the greenside bunkers restored.  Still no rater play.
I will boldly say that there is no way any Fazio course is as good as Engineers and am certain about my earlier pronouncements. I've been fortunate to play a large selection of great coueses, especially in the world categtory and Engineers is a great course by worldwide stqndards.  Its just that nobody has gone out to see such greatness.  Perhaps there is groupthink at work, but sebonic rates ahead of ballynral which is pretty close to perfection--something works the same way against Engineers

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

Someset has a dud for the final hole -- compare it to the finale at Lake at Olympic or Inverness in an apples to applies comparison. Not even remotely close. Just a lame closer for a course that deserved a better conclusion in my mind. Also, once you get past the 2nd and until you reach the 7th -- the middle holes of the front are quite plain Jane in my mind. On the back side -- I have always believed #10 to be an average par-5 hole and the much ballyhooed 12th -- to be vastly overrated -- including Tom D's laughable inclusion of the hole as one of the best 18-holes in the USA when he listed it in CG.

Don't get yourself -- place gets plenty of mileage because of the blue bloods who play there and that Golf House is right down the street. No doubt the greens are first rate -- when properly prepared and consistently presented.

RMD:

I respect your take but you need to see the 2011 version of Sleepy Hollow. You mentioned the greens at Engineers -- no doubt, a big time plus. Do you think the ones at SH are pedestrian? You say SH has "some great holes" - give me a break there's more than some and it's much more than just the saluted par-3 that is framed in the rear with the Hudson River.

I have not played Engineers for roughly 3 years but two of my best buds played it in 2010 and really enjoyed the course. I mentioned your comments to them about the course being "a great course by worldwide standards." Both acknowleded it has moments of superior qualities -- but to jump to "worldwide" is where you lost them and me as well.

You speak in broadbrush strokes regarding the competitive landscape across the greater NYC metro area is -- let alone the nation as a whole. Engineers doesn't test the driver or the approach shot as well as either Sebonack and Bethpage Black. I do concede the greens at Engineers are superior to the Black on a consistent basis but the course, as a whole from your own accounts, is more presentations than substance and grit. Likely, you and I place different emphasis points but I will keep the course on my short list to play for this year and be maybe to modify my comments if warranted. I trust you will do likewise across the board with greater details and, of course, to see what SH now has become.

You also need to play a richer diversity of TF courses because though the man has a number of flawed "frame" type courses his top 7-8 are worth playing time after time and are, in my mind, highl deserving of top 100 status here in the States. I say that after playing no less than 75+ courses he has designed.

Robert, you said Engineers is better than 60 of the current GD listing. I will hold you to that statement because without specific course names it's just a vague generalized statement.

You also are off base, with respect mind you, if you think Engineers has the better land, routing or diversity of holes since SH has been updated / restored, call it what one will.