Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
I could see some logic to that if you only did it for courses that were really close to the standard (40-44). If you take it much farther than that then you might as well just lower the standard because its not really a standard. Any time you start massaging the numbers I think you run down a slippery slope. The best solution is for panelists to get to those courses. If the course doesn't want panelists--that becomes easier said than done.

[astavrides]

Did the top 100 public list come out also?

[Sean Leary]

The problem with not having 45 or whatever as the minimum is that the local bias factor can then pervade too much into the rankings. 4 years ago, the local club I am a member at had the score to be in the 60's on GD's Top 100 list (Our pro called and Digest sent him the numbers). But the club was short 5 votes or so, so it didn't make it. At that time, we hadn't gotten a lot of national raters (it was pre-Chambers Bay) and locally, it was considered the best around by most. The rating was artificially high. Chambers opened, more raters from around the country came, and the scores dropped. As they should have, because while it's good, it is not Top 100.

[Ed Oden]

Interesting that the biggest riser on the GD list (other than courses appearing for the first time) is Eagle Point, which moved from #83 to #48.  That's a head scratcher for me.  Unlike Sahalee, there is no recent tournament exposure to partially explain the jump.  Nor have there been any major changes to the course that I am aware of which would spawn such an elevation.  In order for a course with enough votes to qualify for the 2009 list to jump up 35 spots on the 2011 list, wouldn't that implicitly mean that almost every new vote over the last 2 years gave it EXTREMELY high marks?  Personally, I think Eagle Point's 2009 ranking was a bit high, although I couldn't really argue with anyone who felt differently.  But I am very surprised by its 2011 ranking and I am blown away at how high some recent raters must have it ranked in order for it to make such a meteoric rise.

[Jim Nugent]

Can anyone explain exactly how GD comes up with scores that accompany each course?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

GD can easily assign more weight to certain raters -- they are not all equal -- it's not like when people cast their ballots for public office.

The base 45 rater rule only hurts the top tier places in the more isolated areas -- the mountain time zone is a good example and that's where Rock Creek and Black Mesa are located -- Kingsley is also a good bit removed.

GD unfortunately has too many raters -- my opinion mind you -- that look at the more modern courses for their emphasis. I do agree w Tom Doak to a degree that the other classic courses are often missed or not more fully appreciated. But, part of that comes from the fact that GW segregates courses through a time cut-off line (1960). If Digest added another 100 courses to the mix it would be curious to see what ones would be included. Frankly, I think there are no less than 20 existing courses from GD's listing that need to say adios -- they have been hanging around simply because of tradition and nothing really else.

Thanks for your comments ...

[Andy Troeger]

The problem with not having 45 or whatever as the minimum is that the local bias factor can then pervade too much into the rankings. 4 years ago, the local club I am a member at had the score to be in the 60's on GD's Top 100 list (Our pro called and Digest sent him the numbers). But the club was short 5 votes or so, so it didn't make it. At that time, we hadn't gotten a lot of national raters (it was pre-Chambers Bay) and locally, it was considered the best around by most. The rating was artificially high. Chambers opened, more raters from around the country came, and the scores dropped. As they should have, because while it's good, it is not Top 100.

Sean,
I tend to think this happens more frequently than most realize and it also raises some other questions. According to most statisticians (or at least the ones I've read), if you don't have at least 30 sample ratings the validity of your survey is lessened because of the influence of additional ballots. Having 45 is an effort to eliminate that.

Matt,
Black Mesa is not influenced by lack of ballots, it doesn't have the scores. And sadly its not that close based on the public list. Kingsley I think suffered from poor initial ratings and has risen as others have seen it. Same with Ballyneal, which I expect will continue to rise. Rock Creek is still pretty new--this is the first time it was even eligible, so I don't think waiting for it to get to 45 is necessarily a bad thing. Gozzer Ranch will likely be in the same boat next time around.

[Andy Troeger]

Can anyone explain exactly how GD comes up with scores that accompany each course?

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100greatestgolfcourses_methodology

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

BM doesn't have scores because people have their eyes closed.

I value what you and Jim have mentioned. Both of you have at least traveled a decent bit to make such observations. Too many of the GD raters are giving high marks to the palaces that are extremely private and of recent vintage.

The 45 rule makes no sense and you took a pass on my other suggestion -- raters are not to be classified as equals with a "one-man, one-vote premise. Certain raters should be rated higher because their extensive play list and analysis supports such a differentiation.

No doubt GD will continue to avoid and downplay any ideas and keep on churning out what is doing.

Andy, I see BM no less than the scores places like Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails are getting now. The only difference is the "brand" name element which those two courses benefit from immensely.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Weighting raters ballots wouldn't bother me. I'd be curious to see how much difference it would make to the actual results.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Weighing ballots would minimize the one-time person who has a much smaller date bate of courses -- too often these folks are the ones who help keep / prop up the lesser courses in my mind.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,
Weighting raters ballots wouldn't bother me. I'd be curious to see how much difference it would make to the actual results.

If you would multiply the votes by their handicaps you could mirror the Golfweek results.  I think we have proven that the required 3 handicap is out the window.

[Mac Plumart]

Sidebar...

I got my Golf Digest today.  Did you see Donald Trump's Top 10 courses list?  WOW!!!  What a class act that guy is...and so modest.

Also, Jeff Brauer appears to have been robbed on this list.  The Quarry had high enough scores to be Top 100 in the US, but didn't get enough raters to see his course.  I think Yeaman's and a few other notable omissions have already been discussed.

Did anyone see Ballyhack on the GD lists, Top 100, best in State...I didn't see it, but I haven't fully studied the lists yet.  I know we had some arguments on this course and its placement on the Golfweek list.  Just curious.

Also, that picture of the Alotian Club looks really, really neat.  Fazio, baby...FAZIO!!!

One more sidenote....I keep a list of Unanimous Gems (US and World) on my site.  With US Unanimous Gems being defined as all 3 rating entities rating a course in their lists, with Golf Magazine rating these Gems on the World and US lists.  Doak's Ballyneal just became a Unanimous Gem...congrats Tom!!!  And Coore and Crenshaw added two courses to that list...Old Sandwich (my favorite golf course name) and Friar's Head. 

Also, my controversial course list (courses rated by one and only one rating entity) has The Alotian, Old Mac, Rock Creek, Kingsley, and Nanea as headliners...but of course quite a few more make that list.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,
There was a reason no one else had posted the list prior to it being posted on Golf Digest's website--the same reason why no one posted the GolfWeek list before it was posted on their website.

Andy

Why so ?

As far as I am concerned - so long as the list is out in the mainstream world one can compile it - can they not ?

How Pasatiempo continues to be excluded on GD's list is beyond me...

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

Nice to see your Windy City bark which predictably is more noise than substance. Check out the comments from others -- including two other GD raters like Andy T and Jim F. I respect their travels and what they have said on that front.

Digest missed the point on far more than Black Mesa. Kingley is a must play and it's not even listed. Ditto Rock Creek. Glenwild in UT is as solid as any TF course I have played -- others get more mileage because likely few of the 45+ people have been to Park City to play it.

You also have a penchant by GD raters to go with the flow on past layouts that have hosted major events -- as that is the case with Baltusrol / Lower which boggles my mind it's in the top 50. Hosting majors is a key things for many people -- but it has little, if anything, to do with architectural heft of a given course.

Far too many public courses are deemed insufficient for many raters -- places like Greywalls in Marquette, MI are solid enough layouts but because they don't have name or happen to be located neat enough other top rated courses get lost in the sauce. Coastal bias also plays a role -- the Northeast certainly reaps this bonanza although there are many excellent courses in my neck of the woods there are also a number which benefit from their location near enough to others which are far more deserving.

Just my opinion -- ignore it as you will. Woof woof ...

[PCCraig]

Cantata moved up in the rankings?

How does Blackwolf Run (river) move up ~20 spots over the past two years when the course wasn't actually open?

[Andy Troeger]

Andy

Why so ?

As far as I am concerned - so long as the list is out in the mainstream world one can compile it - can they not ?

How Pasatiempo continues to be excluded on GD's list is beyond me...

Kevin,
I just wish you would have waited and posted a link when the magazine posts it online. I don't see how its in the mainstream if the magazine itself hasn't posted the online version. I haven't received my copy either. Its not the end of the world, but I think people should either pay for the magazine or wait until the magazine posts it online.

Agreed on Pasatiempo

[Mark Saltzman]

Cantata moved up in the rankings?

How does Blackwolf Run (river) move up ~20 spots over the past two years when the course wasn't actually open?

Pat,

I believe that after a certain number of years, older votes get dropped out of the calculation and are no longer factored in the rating.  If Blackwolf moved up, it would mean that the older votes were lower than the newer ones.

Mark

[Howard Riefs]

I couldn't help but notice that the Chicago-area courses took a drubbing in the rankings. All six courses fell. Previously, there were five in the top 50; now there are just two:

T17 (12) Chicago GC IL 65.75
23 (20) Medinah CC (No. 3) IL 65.01
54 (37) Butler National GC IL 62.49
58 (46) Rich Harvest Links IL 62.26
60 (43) Olympia Fields CC (No) IL 62.16
92 (74) Shoreacres IL 61.08

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

I can name plenty more than three.

If / when you ever play Black Mesa, or Kingsley or Rock Creek or Glenwild and on and on I can go -- please let me know. They are all stellar in their own way. Public choies like Greywalls in Marquette MI and to a lesser extent Vista Verde in the Scottsdale area get routinely dissed because the old time clubs -- primarily from the two coasts draw so much more attention and likely votes.

But what the hell do I know when compared to your brilliance.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Kingsley is rated #9 in Michigan, up from #19 or so. Getting closer!

[JC Jones]

Kingsley is rated #9 in Michigan, up from #19 or so. Getting closer!

Better than that, it is at #6, up from #13.

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

I'm laughing loudly at you. Retarded? Continue with the mindless name calling if that floats your boat.

I am aware of the comments made on Rock Creek (yours and mine) -- maybe you should ask yourself how a mag like GD is so wrong on a host of courses. Why the silly need to have to wait for 45+ raters to go there when real time fast tracking would be more than able to get things going -- ditto if raters were weighted more so depending upon their travels and backgrounds. I loved Rock Creek but stand by what I said -- the finale is a letdown -- a decent hole but far from the level of play that precedes it. I also mentioned several other courses that should be listed and more than a few GD raters have said similar things. The biases I mention to the coasts is clear -- plenty of golf, private and public, sit on the sidelines.

Feel free to continue your yelping -- ignore my comments as you see fit. Trust me -- the reverse is no less true.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

All 3 are in my top 50 with one in my top 10 actually. Guess which one?

Tom -

Camargo was not hosting panelists for a long time and I don't know anyone in Cincinnati. I would fly there ina heart beat to pay and play it. The comping part is nice, but I want to play the greats and if that means pay my freight, then so be it. I loved Shoreacres and all of my friends that have played both say camargo is head and shoulders better. I hope to see it one day this summer.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Thanks for weighing in -- I'm guessing Rock Creek is in the top 10 !

Given your extensive travels I'd be curous to know your personal top five that should be rated in GD's top 100 and the top five that you would say are overrated and need to move out. I'll do likewise when you respond.

Sadly, I only wish GD were to weight the different raters -- years ago I guy named Terry Inslee would be someone who would be worth 4x or 5x what another rater could provide. Terry traveled to nearly all the key places. GD, unfortunately, see one-man / one-vote as the best way to go.

Jim, I also agree with you and your friends / re: Camargo over Shoreacres. Been years since I played both but the Cincinnati layout has little in terms of a major fan club although there are people who love the place. Since Doak's involvement I'd be curiosu if you have played it since his work there.