Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Mike Benham]

You may not want to see this or admit it -- but GD has lost a good bit more than the others when ratings are concerned. GD is the BRAND name - the 800-pound gorilla in the industry and it has squandered that with rating findings that are just mindboggling in so many ways.

Matt -

What exactly has GD "lost" with a bad, in your mind, ranking process and phony results? 

Ad revenue, subscriptions, page views, the respect of Golf Course Architecture Pullers on a website?

Did any other publication or website gain from their flailings?

[John Kavanaugh]

Richard,

Are you a Golfweek rater?  The Alotian was not being petty in blackballing Golfweek raters, it simply knows that you guys are not worth the trouble considering their projected demographic does not read your magazine.  Really, who does besides the parents of college players and golfers waiting for their tee time.  I admire the people who run The Alotian for not paying "protection money" to the Golfweek corps.  They can take the heat.

Now as far as the Golfweek rater who has apologized for his comments on this site.  I even questioned why he was so angry. His tone was out of line for a guy who has been given access, even through friends, several times at a private club.  I also imagine it was his friends that called him, not the club.

I can personally attest that this is not the first time someone has been called to the carpet by a club for what they have said on this site.

You were out of line questioning Jim Franklin's motives. I just chalked it up to jealousy.

[Brad Tufts]

I can vouch for Kukio being very good.  That was a big surprise for me last year, as I didn't know much about it going in.

Also Sycamore Hills and Crooked Stick are interesting.  I had them flip-flopped after seeing them both in 2010.

[Jim Franklin]

I heard Nanea was terrific. Thanks for the info Jim. So that's 12 additional courses that could be top 100 plus we don't know how many points Rock Creek would have (I am assuming it would have enough to qualify since it is the best new course I have seen....ever).

[Jim Colton]

I heard Nanea was terrific. Thanks for the info Jim. So that's 12 additional courses that could be top 100 plus we don't know how many points Rock Creek would have (I am assuming it would have enough to qualify since it is the best new course I have seen....ever).

Jim, cmon how much is RCCC paying you to say that?

I suspect RCCC would definitely be on there, but who knows if it even gets 45 by 2013.

You think it'd be worthwhile for the magazine this honorable mention courses that would make it if they had enough votes.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

I never said the word "phony" --  to those who really understand golf architecture -- the Digest results are becoming more and more renoved from the number of top tier courses that are either ignored or weighed down too much. Rock Creek is a great example -- I guess everyone must wait for the 45+ people to get to Deer Lodge to know what's there. Ditto for Kingsley. Or even Black Mesa. Digest may still bring in the ad revenue but ratings can add to the luster of any publication. Check out the stuff that comes from JD Powers and other such groups of that standing.

Frankly, I believe GW and GM have both gained -- not as much from what they produce collectively but because GD has fumbled on a range of fronts. Just my opinion -- if you and others see it differently -- fair enough.

Brad:

Hold the phone amigo -- the "bitterness" tag is so old school -- instead of dealing with the issues presented -- it's easier to turn things back and say the person is disgruntled or some such other jibberish.

I remain "riveted" because I think a prestigious publication like GD can do better -- but as Tom D said so correctly, if you bothered to notice, the folks within GD believe no one can tell them how to do things better. It's always the other person who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Discard your opinion. Now, that's a good laugh. You're the guy who says Old Macdonald is "crazy high" and HAVE NOT played the course yet. How about you do the homework before weighing in and then retreating with your word tapdance on the use of the word "seem."

I don't need to "feel better" -- I see what GD produces. No Rock Creek. No Kingsley. No Black Mesa. Shall I go on and on and on. The 800+ panel -- or is it more than that now? GD believes all raters are equal and for some strange reason cannot see the clear errors that are happening with greater frequency. Of coruse - why would you say that -- access can be cut in a NY minute and most weak people decide to follow the flow instead of running againmst it -- especially when justified.

Brad, believe what you wish, I work well with plenty of people -- I don't work well with people who don't want individual opinions but only want groupthink zombies. You can decide for yourself where you fit it but you don't know me from squat and therefore are in no postion to lecture me about where I fit in or not.

Let me also straighten you out on another misconception you and a few others have -- I have engaged in plenty of meaningful back and forth dialogue with people about courses and they find it refreshing that I don't spit out the basic pablum. Brad, try to develop a bit of a thicker hide and then you can tell me what's missing.

I don't "let go" of the Old Macdonald situation because you're the one who inserted your foot into your own mouth. The golf course is THAT good -- why not play it before you start down the line that's it's rated too high. Now you qualify things by saying that if Merion or Shinnecock were that high you would say the same thing. Why didn't you say that with your initial post?

Brad, I saluted you for your golf background but you choose to read only those things that get your nose out of joint. So be it -- thanks again partner.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You've typed a lot of words on this thread, and still haven't gotten past the notion that the just list doesn't mesh with your own personal opinions of golf courses, no matter how many ways you attempt to phrase it. Its a subjective exercise, and if the GD consensus doesn't mesh with your views, then don't read the magazine.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt,
You've typed a lot of words on this thread, and still haven't gotten past the notion that the just list doesn't mesh with your own personal opinions of golf courses, no matter how many ways you attempt to phrase it. Its a subjective exercise, and if the GD consensus doesn't mesh with your views, then don't read the magazine.

I don't think that is the answer. Matt is a big boy and can answer himself, but he is saying GD could do better. On quite a few fronts, I agree. Rock Creek is a tough place to get to. 45 panelists paying their own freight to get there is going to be a challenge. Do I think they change the process for one course? No, but maybe 45 IS too many. Now Black Mesa and Kingsley are inexcuseable absences. Both are not nearly as challenging to get too and quite frankly, Black Mesa was way easier to get to than I imagined.

[Sean Leary]

Matt,
You've typed a lot of words on this thread, and still haven't gotten past the notion that the just list doesn't mesh with your own personal opinions of golf courses, no matter how many ways you attempt to phrase it. Its a subjective exercise, and if the GD consensus doesn't mesh with your views, then don't read the magazine.

I don't think that is the answer. Matt is a big boy and can answer himself, but he is saying GD could do better. On quite a few fronts, I agree. Rock Creek is a tough place to get to. 45 panelists paying their own freight to get there is going to be a challenge. Do I think they change the process for one course? No, but maybe 45 IS too many. Now Black Mesa and Kingsley are inexcuseable absences. Both are not nearly as challenging to get too and quite frankly, Black Mesa was way easier to get to than I imagined.

Are BM and Kingsley not on due to number of raters or not high enough scores?

[George Freeman]

Matt,
You've typed a lot of words on this thread, and still haven't gotten past the notion that the just list doesn't mesh with your own personal opinions of golf courses, no matter how many ways you attempt to phrase it. Its a subjective exercise, and if the GD consensus doesn't mesh with your views, then don't read the magazine.

I don't think that is the answer. Matt is a big boy and can answer himself, but he is saying GD could do better. On quite a few fronts, I agree. Rock Creek is a tough place to get to. 45 panelists paying their own freight to get there is going to be a challenge. Do I think they change the process for one course? No, but maybe 45 IS too many. Now Black Mesa and Kingsley are inexcuseable absences. Both are not nearly as challenging to get too and quite frankly, Black Mesa was way easier to get to than I imagined.

Are BM and Kingsley not on due to number of raters or not high enough scores?

Sounds like not high enough scores, unfortunately....

[Jim Colton]

Yeah Black Mesa is 86th (!!!) on the Public List.

[Kalen Braley]

I would also like to 2nd Jims thoughts about RCCC.  The course is absolutely fantastic and nothing short of superb. 

Great variety of holes, epic stretch of holes from 14-16, challenging greens with plenty of interest, terrific bunkering.  Its easily a better course than Gozzer or any other course I've played in the PNW...with the exception of maybe Pac Dunes.  (Haven't played Chambers yet)

But it is very remote with the nearest major airport being nearly 4 hours away.  However Sand Hills is even more remote and people eventually got out there to see it in droves.

[John Kavanaugh]

RCCC already has enough votes to be best in state. It will have the 45 required by the time the next rankings are out two years from now.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
Really, Matt thinks GD could do better? I'd have never guessed that! 

Just figured I'd give him some grief. I'm sure I'll get some back! I'm not going to say that Digest's methods are perfect or the way I would run things, but I don't think Matt's methods are perfect either. I do appreciate that he recognizes courses that I like too--Kingsley, Black Mesa, and Rock Creek certainly included.

[Carl Nichols]

FWIW, I read Brad Tufts' statement about Old Mac to reflect his surprise that ANY course would debut at #3 on any list, not that something particular about Old Mac created that reaction. 

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

Thanks for your comments and in clearly understanding what I wrote -- I guess my english must be working with some folks.

45 raters is frankly way over-the-top. Digest can easily amend the procedures and make sure clear omissions aren't left out. Rock Creek, Kingsley and even Black Mesa would be among my top 100 -- of course, the collective brain power of the GD panel has me beat so I will defer to their collective talents.

Jim, you are one of the more hardy travelers on this site and I respect your judgement -- do you think the three courses I mentioned above have the goods to be top 100 layouts? If you answer yes across the board -- I know then that something is clearly amiss with GD. There are other courses I can name as well and ditto for listing places already in the program as fat and happy dinosaurs that should be removed.

Andy:

Hold the phone buckeroo -- last time I checked this is America and people can say what they wish for however long they wish. Let me spin it my way - if you don't like what I say ignore it. Sure -- it's subjective but there are plenty of places that should be rated that aren't. You can call it what you may -- but far too often the guys with the biggest burr under their saddles are GD panelists who can't stand having to defend what's not happening from the mag.

Andy, Tom Doak said it plainly and agree with him -- suggestions can be made (and have been) -- it's like what my Dad used to say -- people have two ears and one mouth -- use the former twice as much. I would hope the bright folks at GD would understand how to improve what is lacking now.

Jim C:

Yes, thanks heavens for GW in recognizing that gem in NM.  Ditto for Kingsley too !

[Tom_Doak]

I just got the magazine in the mail today and there are quite a few examples in the state rankings, including a few classics. I guess some raters only had time to play one course at Baltusrol.

New Jersey: Baltusrol Upper #4 - between Plainfield (76) and Galloway National (91)
New York: Piping Rock #10 - between Garden City (53) and Hudson National (83)
North Carolina: Quail Hollow #5 - between Mountaintop (74) and Diamond Creek (87) - a Fazio sandwich
Ohio: Camargo #2 - between Muirfield Village (19) and The Golf Club (40) - wow!
Ohio: Firestone South #4 - between the Golf Club (40) and Inverness (56)
South Carolina: Yeamans Hall #3 and Kiawah Island River #4 - between The Ocean Course (26) and Sage Valley (81)

Wow.  It is hard to believe none of these courses received enough votes in order to be ranked.  Some of them have been ranked for years, and nearly all of them are staples of all the other rankings.  I guess DIGEST just does not take any responsibility for trying to get its panelists to go to courses that are likely candidates for the list.

It's also a bit weird that more GOLF DIGEST panelists have been to Sage Valley and Mountaintop than to Yeamans Hall and Firestone and Quail Hollow, don't you think?  Perhaps they are just going where they are getting comped?

[Kevin Pallier]

Is someone able to post the full list or at least the Top 50 from GD ?

Edit: Thanks to those who sent it to me.

FIRST 10
 
1 (1) Augusta National GC  GA  72.87
2 (2) Pine Valley GC  NJ  72.49
3 (3) Shinnecock Hills GC  NY  69.36
4 (5) Oakmont CC  PA  69.01
5 (4) Cypress Point C CA  69
6 (6)Pebble Beach GL  CA  68.56
7 (7) Merion GC (East)  PA  68.54
8 ( Winged Foot GC (West)  NY  66.81
9 (13) Sand Hills GC NE 66.7
10 (15) National G Links NY 66.62
 
SECOND 10
 
11 (9) Fishers Island C NY 66.5
12 (16) Crystal Downs GC MI 66.22
13 (10) Seminole GC FL 66.17
14 (new) The Alotian Club AR 65.88
15 (14) Pacific Dunes OR 65.86
16 (18) The Country Club MA 65.85
T17 (12) Chicago GC IL 65.75
T17 (22) Whistling Straits(Straits) WI 65.75
19 (19) Muirfield Village GC OH 65.65
20 (17) Wade Hampton GC NC 65.51
 
THIRD 10
 
21 (11) Oak Hill CC (East) NY 65.47
22 (31) Riviera CC CA 65.05
23 (20) Medinah CC (No. 3) IL 65.01
24 (23) Oakland Hills CC (South) MI 64.98
25 (21) Prairie Dunes CC KS 64.96
26 (25) The Ocean Cse SC 64.88
27 (26) The Olympic C (Lake) CA 64.79
28 (33) Bandon Dunes OR 64.27
T29 (28) Castle Pines GC CO 64.18
T29 (38) The Honors Cse TN 64.18
 
FOURTH 10
 
31 (41) Shadow Creek NV 64.15
32 (30) Baltusrol GC (Lower) NJ 64.07
33 (36) San Francisco GC CA 63.93
34. (new) Friars Head GC NY 63.79
35 (24) Victoria National GC IN 63.77
36 (29) Bethpage (Black) NY 63.7
37 (32) Pinehurst Resort (No. 2) NC 63.6
38 (34) Southern Hills CC OK 63.52
39 (42) Canyata GC IL 63.45
40 (35) The Golf Club OH 63.44

FIFTH 10

41 (45) TPC Sawgrass (Stadium) FL 63.29
42 (27) The C at Black Rock ID 63.22
43 (60) Peachtree GC GA 63.21
44 (39) Sebonack GC NY 63.16
45 (57) Pete Dye GC WV 63.04
46 (48) Kinloch GC VA 62.96
47 (47) Los Angeles CC (North) CA 62.85
48 (83) Eagle Point GC NC 62.83
49 (49) Arcadia Bluffs GC MI 62.77
50 (84) Sahalee CC (South/North) WA 62.72

SIXTH 10
 
51 (64) Interlachen CC MN 62.67
52 (51) Spyglass Hill G Cse CA 62.63
53 (53) Garden City GC NY 62.52
54 (37) Butler National GC IL 62.49
55 (77) Laurel Valley GC PA 62.43
56 (40) Inverness C OH 62.37
57 (52) Milwaukee CC WI 62.31
58 (46) Rich Harvest Links IL 62.26
59 (59) Dallas National GC TX 62.17
60 (43) Olympia Fields CC (No) IL 62.16

SEVENTH 10
 
61 (69) East Lake GC GA 62.1
62 (82) Estancia Club AZ 62.05
63 (80) Bandon Trails OR 62.01
T64 (56) Double Eagle Club OH 61.96
T64 (58) Kittansett C MA 61.96
66 (61) Scioto CC OH 61.94
67 (54) Cherry Hills CC CO 61.93
68 (78) The Preserve GC CA 61.89
69 (93) Sycamore Hills GC IN 61.85
70 (55) Forest Highlands (Canyon) AZ 61.82
 
EIGHTH 10
 
71 (99) Blackwolf Run GC (River) WI 61.81
72 (50) Shoal Creek AL 61.79
73 (44) The Quarry at La Quinta CA 61.72
74 (new)Mountaintop G & Lake   NC 61.69
75 (63) Flint Hills National GC KS 61.62
76 (71) Plainfield CC NJ 61.59
77 (66) Congressional CC (Blue) MD 61.58
78 (76) Aronimink GC PA 61.57
T79 (92) Calusa Pines GC FL 61.55
T79 (72) Monterey Peninsula (Sh) CA 61.55

NINTH 10
 
81 (87) Sage Valley GC SC 61.46
82 (79) Mayacama GC CA 61.44
83 (94) Hudson National GC NY 61.43
84 (95) Valhalla GC KY 61.36
85 (62) Eugene CC OR 61.34
86 (91) Hazeltine National GC MN 61.3
87 (new) Diamond Creek GC NC 61.24
88 (new) Kapalua GC (Plantation) HI 61.19
T89 (new) Boston GC MA 61.17
T89 (new) Old Sandwich GC MA 61.17
 
TENTH 10
 
91 (70) Galloway National GC NJ 61.16
92 (74) Shoreacres IL 61.08
T93 (86) Maidstone C NY 61.07
T93 (88) Somerset Hills CC NJ 61.07
95 (new) Ballyneal GC CO 61.06
96 (100) Crooked Stick GC IN 61
T97 (67) The Prince Cse HI 60.96
T97 (65) Winged Foot GC (East) NY 60.96
99 (new) Forest Dunes G&CC MI 60.93
T100 (75) Harbour Town G L SC 60.91
T100(97) Ocean Forest GC GA 60.91

Glad to see CPC ahead of PB - albeit just........

Ballyneal at 95 and Bandon Dunes at 28

[Steve Kline]

Bandon Dunes at 28 is just ridiculous. I think it is the fourth best course at the resort. There a couole of great holes there but a number of lackluster ones too. I also cannot imagine Muirfield Village being better than Camargo. I have played both several times and to me Camargo is the better course hands down.

Of course all of this is extremely subjective and my opinions are just my opinions.

[Jim Colton]

I just got the magazine in the mail today and there are quite a few examples in the state rankings, including a few classics. I guess some raters only had time to play one course at Baltusrol.

New Jersey: Baltusrol Upper #4 - between Plainfield (76) and Galloway National (91)
New York: Piping Rock #10 - between Garden City (53) and Hudson National (83)
North Carolina: Quail Hollow #5 - between Mountaintop (74) and Diamond Creek (87) - a Fazio sandwich
Ohio: Camargo #2 - between Muirfield Village (19) and The Golf Club (40) - wow!
Ohio: Firestone South #4 - between the Golf Club (40) and Inverness (56)
South Carolina: Yeamans Hall #3 and Kiawah Island River #4 - between The Ocean Course (26) and Sage Valley (81)

Wow.  It is hard to believe none of these courses received enough votes in order to be ranked.  Some of them have been ranked for years, and nearly all of them are staples of all the other rankings.  I guess DIGEST just does not take any responsibility for trying to get its panelists to go to courses that are likely candidates for the list.

It's also a bit weird that more GOLF DIGEST panelists have been to Sage Valley and Mountaintop than to Yeamans Hall and Firestone and Quail Hollow, don't you think?  Perhaps they are just going where they are getting comped?

Tom,

Considering they have the Pope of Slope helping, you'd think they could factor in an adjusted score (even if it was conservative) for a course like Camargo that had, say 40 votes putting it as a top 40 course. Hypothetically give it the additional votes required to meet the minimum at -2 standard deviations or something like that. Certainly that's better than excluding them altogether. Especially if they want to call themselves the gold standard list.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Considering they have the Pope of Slope helping, you'd think they could factor in an adjusted score (even if it was conservative) for a course like Camargo that had, say 40 votes putting it as a top 40 course. Hypothetically give it the additional votes required to meet the minimum at -2 standard deviations or something like that. Certainly that's better than excluding them altogether. Especially if they want to call themselves the gold standard list.

Jim:

I guess they just believe if they are the gold standard, why bother trying?  Just say "rules are rules" and let the chips fall where they may.  Plus, they might be getting a bit more perks out of Sage Valley than they would from Camargo.

[Carl Rogers]

Course Ratings have become, if it is possible, even more tedious than the interpretations of Macro-Economic statistics and Foreign Curency Exchange trading.

Why?

[JC Jones]

Tom,

Considering they have the Pope of Slope helping, you'd think they could factor in an adjusted score (even if it was conservative) for a course like Camargo that had, say 40 votes putting it as a top 40 course. Hypothetically give it the additional votes required to meet the minimum at -2 standard deviations or something like that. Certainly that's better than excluding them altogether. Especially if they want to call themselves the gold standard list.

Jim:

I guess they just believe if they are the gold standard, why bother trying?  Just say "rules are rules" and let the chips fall where they may.  Plus, they might be getting a bit more perks out of Sage Valley than they would from Camargo.

From what I understand, that is much more the case with Golfweek than with Golf Digest.  Golf Digest doesn't have rater outings and bus tours for Brad Klein and gang.

[Andy Troeger]

Kevin,
There was a reason no one else had posted the list prior to it being posted on Golf Digest's website--the same reason why no one posted the GolfWeek list before it was posted on their website.

Tom and Jim,
I understand what you're getting at, but if you make an exception for Camargo then where do you stop? 40? 35? 15? If you set a standard like that you don't make exceptions--that would undermine credibility more than leaving out a course that didn't get enough ballots. Personally, I'd be fine with a smaller panel and smaller requirements, especially if you have quality raters, but once you set a standard you have to follow it.

Steve,
I could say something similar about Old MacDonald and GolfWeek, since for me its #4 at its own resort and #3 Modern on their list. I think Bandon Trails is woefully underrated, but really would still say that Old Mac is one the best in the country (between #50-75 perhaps overall and higher modern) and that all four are that good. Bandon Dunes is #3 at the resort for me, but top thirty isn't a stretch. Its just not Trails or Pac Dunes.

Matt,
There are probably 20 courses on the list that I would personally replace, and I've only played half of them. Its a subjective exercise. You have the right to say what you like, and as mentioned I agree with some of it and the specific examples, but I respect the right of the editors to run their own list too. And lets be honest--you don't have any interest in listening to them any more than they have in listening to you. Rock Creek should be top 10/20 and Black Mesa and Kingsley top 50 at the very worst.

[Jim Colton]

Andy,

  That's why I suggested you make the haircut proportional to the number of votes short of the minimum.  Say, for example, Chicago Golf only had 44 votes, but those votes had it at ranked T-17.  Even if you were to assume a score of 8 (the lowest possible, right) - not that's how I would propose doing it, but as an extreme example - that would bring its score down to 64.47 and a rank of 28th.  Certainly that would be better than a list of "America's Best 100 Courses" that didn't include Chicago Golf Club at all, right?