Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you don't know a god damn thing about me or my ego.

That's all.

You are right. I don't. What I am saying is that your characterization of the "average" golfer gives appearances of what you ego may be. Just sayin' try to be less negative about the average guy.

[Travis Dewire]

Amen KBM!!!! I really like what your saying here.

Potts, I like how you stand. I can guess you are a good player too.

I agree that the average golfer is most certainly NOT, polite, engaging, and definitely not respectful.

In my own experience, I find most golfers to think they are "polite", until they open their mouth and remove all doubt. And i don't mean swearing

[Travis Dewire]

I also agree that the ranking system is corrupted. I can not speak for the entire list as a whole (but I'm sure), but the best in state for my state, always seems a little shaky. No Dedham C&P in MA top 20? LOLOLOL

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Your comments are spot on -- for you and I can certainly understand what you are saying.

I grew up on a muni course and saw firsthand the vast array of personalities that played there. I wanted more from golf and therefore exposed myself to those folks who could do that. For many people -- the recreation component is nothing more than five hours in the sunshine with their buds and having a few brews afterwardds.

A very small percentage of people are really interested or care to be exposed to what real golf can and should be about.

Give them a cart -- loaded up with a 64-ounce drink of something and point the way to the 1st tee and it's roughly akin to them having a day at the amusement park. My characterizations hold for those who play public and even private golf.

No doubt there are people who want more from golf and really are passionate about what it provides. The sad fact is that golf as a whole has been a failure in trying to inform, educate and elevate the nature of the game to the broader masses.

I can understand Kelly's take on things. As an architect he has to deal with those willing to pay for his services. As a result, his client base may not be the same that a Tom Doak routinely gets. I salute Kelly because two of his projects -- Lederach and Morgan Hill in Pennsy -- have really exposed what quality design can be in such a previously barren public landscape such as The Keystone State. I say that in having played nearly all the key courses in that state for well over 35+ years.

Much of this discussion rests on who has to deal with who inthe golf industry. Ryan has the benefit in staying completely away from those folks he wishes not to deal with. I understand that and salute him for knowing what he likes and doesn't like. Kelly, n the other hand, will need to be a bit more flexible because it can effect his bottom line -- his business. Simple as that.

[Sean Leary]

Just looked at it. In the issue, they also ask 10 famous pros and the like what their top 10 is. Unreal to say the least, although Trumps is predictably hilarious.

[M.W._Burrows]

Could someone with a copy please share what Winged Foot East is ranked?  I couldn't find a May copy in NYC yesterday and would love to know if the East moved after our green expansion work with Gil Hanse.

Thanks.

[Jim Franklin]

Could someone with a copy please share what Winged Foot East is ranked?  I couldn't find a May copy in NYC yesterday and would love to know if the East moved after our green expansion work with Gil Hanse.

Thanks.

I believe WF(east) dropped down into the 90s, but not 100% sure. I can safely say it wasn't my fault as I did not rate it after the work was done. My Tillinghast BCC still cannot get back in either. I do not understand GD's panelists' love affair with some of the courses on our list.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The sad fact is that TF commands a solid following on GD's lists and the bulk of the panelists for GD don't weigh the "second tier" classics as being especially noteworthy -- I really like what WF/E is about and the recent work only made what is there better. Likely many panelists have not played it or simply think erroneously that the big brother West Course is the only one worth playing.

Whereas GW will rate the old-time classics from top to bottom when needed -- GD is hellbent on elevating the more recent big ticket name courses.

[Brad Tufts]

GW by definition rates the classics on one list, then rates the moderns on another.  Because GW needs 100 classics to fill the list, it obviously will find 100 noteworthy classics, including some on the "second tier."

GD combines the lists...this is well-known.

I fear this thread is slowly devolving into a free-for all where not much makes sense anymore.

I don't feel GD "elevates the recent big ticket name courses."  There is a waiting period to stop the extremes for a new course, and it is pretty well documented that some new courses start high and falls as their position settles.

If any of the lists are "hellbent" on elevating new buzzworthy courses, it is GW.  Hell, Old Mac is #3 GWMod. over some damn good competition.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Just for curiosity -- do you rate for any of the mags ?

Second, I am well aware of the split GW does for its ratings.

My point, which you may have missed, is that GD could do a better job in assessing the nature of the second tier classic courses.

WF/E is a superb layout that often is not fully appreciated by many people -- especially those who come to the facility and are more interested in the big brother West Course. Candidly, the East is better than the #1 course for no less than 15-20 states in America now.

Brad, check out the ascention of a number of courses that GD and its panelists have brought forward. The classic one from years ago was Shadow Creek -- the same is being said now for The Alotian Club -- although I have not played it but I do respect the comments of those who have.

You ask about Old Macdonald. I did play it this past summer and see it as first tier bonafide top 100 layout. I don't assign specific ratings numbers such as #3 but its merits are considerably more than Shadow Creek which I played years ago after it opened and wondered what people were seeing in that instance.

[Mike Benham]

Brad:

Just for curiosity -- do you rate for any of the mags ?

Can I ask the same of you Matt, are you, or have you been a rater for a magazine, website?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

It appears I have ruffled feathers at The Alotian and quite certain in the process made myself persona non grata in the future.
As such I have adjusted my posts slightly to be less judgemental on the golf course and more about its #14 position, which is my ONLY critisism
I THOUGHT...I had made it clear I thought it was a good golf course..after all it's only wekness I stated was its lack of walkablilty..I even singled out thier choice of Golf Professional...THAT BEEN SAID, I dont particularly like ruffling feathers especially in my own state at a course I know, respect and like several of the members.

My comments are NOT on the course but the rating system that I belive has them rated too high..IN MY OPINION..which is what this site is all about.

[Richard Choi]

Michael, you just demonstrated why "ultra-exclusive" golf clubs routinely get rated higher than what they deserve...

[Sean Leary]

Rich,

Explain further please.

[Brad Tufts]

Matt,

I've disclosed before that I'm a GD panelist.  I wasn't avoiding saying it again, just hadn't mentioned it on this thread till now.  How about you?

I defend the GD process because it makes sense to me, and none of them are perfect.  Tweaking of criteria happens from year to year as in any ranking.  Golfweek has its value as well, the two systems are just different.  I'm excited to be a part of something that generates discussion, however the numbers come out.  I will never be the "best rater" and my opinion will never necessarily be the "right one," but I feel as though I am qualified to be a panelist, and my learning and experience will only increase over time.  I take time trying to get my numbers correct, but I cannot speak for anyone but myself.

I feel as though GD addresses the "second tier" or "second 50" classic courses in the state lists, where they are generally accurate.  I have never been to Alotian, RCCC, Old Mac, or WF/E as of yet, so I can't speak specifically about those.  I have my favorites that do not get the recognition I feel they deserve, and vice-versa, but a list one panelist's opinion does not make.

I mentioned Old Mac just because #3 seemed crazy-high for a course only open a short time whose reviews have run the gamut from "great" to "ok."  I've gotten reviews from GCA down to close friends and my brother on Old Mac.  Maybe I will rate it right up there too, and the polarity to me is certainly worth going to see at some point.

[Jim Franklin]

Brad makes a great point in regard to Old Mac. I played it in the summer and loved it. A few friends played it over the winter and thought it was the 4th best course there. In the summer wind, #4 was a driver 8 iron. I understand in the winter it was driver, 3 wood, 8 iron. Seeing that a course will play THAT differently in different seasons makes it hard to see that Old Mac is the #3 course in America.

[Jerry Kluger]

Ryan and Garland: I think that Ryan's statement is not true as those types of golfers are a very small percentage of people who play golf on a somewhat regular basis, but unfortunately, it has evolved into a stereotype which is unfortunate for the game.  People don't want to be viewed that way and their spouses are not going to understand why they need to go out and play golf if they see it as 4 or more hours of drinking and screwing around. 

[Jim Franklin]

My wife thinks golf takes 6 hours. Please don't bust my rap. 

[Andy Troeger]

I do think The Alotian fits the Golf Digest criteria very well, for what that's worth. On my personal list I re-weight things and have my own formula and its in my second ten (including about half of the top 100). If I were to sort by the Golf Digest totals Alotian makes my top ten. Going by the Digest categories that count, its tough to find a weakness.

[Stewart Naugler]

Olympia Fields North?

Thanks

[Richard Choi]

Since, unlike Michael, I have never played Alotian and don't care if I ever get to play it...

If you want to massage the rankings, Alotian's approach seems to be the one to take. Boot Golfweek raters since there are too many of them and it would be more difficult to control, allow GD raters in while subtley letting them know that any negative response will not be welcomed and getting exclusivity afficianados to toe the line.

Pretty brilliant, really. Distasteful, but brilliant nonetheless.

I will adjust the ratings of Alotian accordingly in my own scale...

[Jim Franklin]

Since, unlike Michael, I have never played Alotian and don't care if I ever get to play it...

If you want to massage the rankings, Alotian's approach seems to be the one to take. Boot Golfweek raters since there are too many of them and it would be more difficult to control, allow GD raters in while subtley letting them know that any negative response will not be welcomed and getting exclusivity afficianados to toe the line.

Pretty brilliant, really. Distasteful, but brilliant nonetheless.

I will adjust the ratings of Alotian accordingly in my own scale...

Richard -

I played The Alotian as a Golf Digest panelist. I was never told ANYTHING by the club about what they expect from me. As Andy said, the course fits the GD criteria very well and I enjoyed my day there immensely. All of you conspiracy theorists guys should relax. There is no conspiracy. Different opinions is what makes the world go 'round. Now how Sahalee is rated over Chambers Bay is a bigger disgrace in my opinion.

[Richard Choi]

Jim, the problem is that I don't know if you are saying that because you are being truthful, or you are saying it because you were pressured to do so.

That is what you get when a club tries to too hard to influence what is being said about the club in the public.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

Frankly, I don't care what your buds think about Old Macdonald. My question to you is this -- how do you see it among all the courses at the facility? Do you see it as being a top 100 course from the ones you have played. Thanks. One final thing - wind is part and parcel at Bandon -- is it not the same for the great links across the pond. Under your rationale -- how can they rate so highly too ?

Brad:

Thanks for disclosing -- but really since you have vested interest as a rater for GD it seems unikely you will say anything which could undercut that connection. Correct?

Just to help me out -- what, in your own words, "qualifies" you to be a panelist?

You are quick to point out Old Mac is "crazy-high" but you have never played it thus far. How do you reconcile taking a position when you have not played it? I can tell you this from my experiences for what they may be worth or not worth to you -- Old Macdonald is a top 100 course for me -- I can't say it's a #3 but it would certainly be among the elite 25-30 courses I have played.

You also say GD recognizes the second tier courses in the state ratings. Why should WF/E be relegated to just that position when it has the deserved goods (my opinion mind you) to be a top 100 course?


Mike B:

Happy to disclose -- yes, for 17 years with GD and for a far shorter amount of time with GW.

Let me know if I can help you additionally.

Michael WP:

It's too bad people can't handle the comments of their course. I believe you when you say your feelings were simply tied to the club's selection as the 14th best. At the same time Michael -- don't backpedal either which is what you are doing now. To paraphrase Palin -- Man up !

[Andy Troeger]

Richard,

If Jim and I didn't like the course, why would we comment on it at all? There's no benefit to either one of us to post positive thoughts about The Alotian Club on GCA other than for the sake of discussion of golf courses. If you don't want to believe that it won't bother me in the slightest--I'll just chalk it up to you being a Michigan guy  

We'll never be required to make the trip from Baltimore or Albuquerque to visit Little Rock again, so if we didn't truthfully like the club we just wouldn't go back and wouldn't have any concern about posting our true feelings. Jim and I have both mentioned not thinking Sahalee belongs in the Top 100, and admittedly its not real high on my priority list of places to visit again.