Golf Digest on NYC newsstands with Top 100

[JC Jones]

The bad news is Kingsley is not in.  I'll be curious to see the state rankings to see if it is, at least, moving up.

The good news is Tullymore is out.  That was a big scar on the rankings.

Some courses made some really big jumps

[Jim Nelson]

I wonder if there is some sort of middle ground between what Digest raters see and what GW raters see.

That might just be Golf Magazine.

[C. Squier]

The bad news is Kingsley is not in.  I'll be curious to see the state rankings to see if it is, at least, moving up.

The good news is Tullymore is out.  That was a big scar on the rankings.

Some courses made some really big jumps

Glad you said "a" and not "the" big scar.  That list is all over the board. 

[Joel_Stewart]

I looked it over briefly.  Some interesting moves.

Oak Hill, 11th to 21st
Sand Hills, 13th to 9th
NGLA 15th to 10th
Shadow Creek, 41st to 31st
LACC stayed at #47 - not enough panelist have seen the changes?
Sahlee 84th to 50th?
Galloway 70th to 91st

[Anton]

Never been to Sahalee and not planning on visiting.  That course never interested me at all.  Shocking that it would make such a big climb. 

Does GD still do the best in state rankings?  That is usually what I try to look at because GD's top 100 always bugs me.

Interesting that Fazio is affiliated with both Augusta + PVGC (and many others) in redesign and he holds so many Top 100 courses.  GD has a Fazio fetish.  :-)

[JC Jones]

I think Fazio is either the architect or affiliated with somewhere around 12-14 courses on the list.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Sahalee at #50, this has to be the biggest joke this year.  It isn't even in the top 3 in the state of Washington.  Maybe the Golf Digest raters gave it tons of points just because the US Senior Open was their in 2010.  Chambers, Aldarra, Tumble and Wine Valley are all better than Sahalee.

[Matt_Ward]

PFerlicca:

Agree w you 100000000% on Sahalee -- especially when I see a gem like Galloway National get pushed further down the pecking order.

You are spot on -- too many bonus points are placed for hosting events -- has little to do with the real architectural elements -- especially for those courses that have architecture but little capacity or desire to host golf tournaments.

[JC Jones]

PFerlicca:

Agree w you 100000000% on Sahalee -- especially when I see a gem like Galloway National get pushed further down the pecking order.

You are spot on -- too many bonus points are placed for hosting events -- has little to do with the real architectural elements -- especially for those courses that have architecture but little capacity or desire to host golf tournaments.

Bonus points?  Given by whom?  In which category?

[Anton]

Thats crazy.  I'm curious to see what else he has done to PVGC to "improve its playability and add length".  I'll be there this season.  He has added some 350+ yards to the course and "cleaned" up the signature waste areas.  It is starting to look too crisp.  The un-raked bunkers and natural blow-outs were part of what made PVGC so great.  Of course it is still a spectacular experience driving thru the gates there but I just worry it will move too far away from its early principles like ANGC did.  

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

Hosting golf events is often "added" by raters of all types. It's not "officially" mentioned but it would be naive of you or anyone else for that matter to think that such things don't happen. Want the top dog in that specific area -- check out ANGC.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Alotian debuting at #14 is the big news here.  I'm guessing that would make it either the best or 2nd best course built in the 2000s, depending on where Pac Dunes is (it was 14th last time).

I don't know much about this course other than both Jim F and Andy T have it as their favorite or among their favorite Fazio's.

Is this another case of Golf Digest awarding special bonus points for ultraexclusive, autocratic private-estate type courses (see Rich Harvest, Canyata, etc)?

I agree. Alotian is my friend's dad's club. I'm gonna have to get out to Arkansas!

[Richard Choi]

Anyone who would rate Sahalee over Ballyneal (or even Chambers), fails the golf IQ test and should resign from rating golf courses.

Sahalee is nice local club. Top 50? That is just preposterous.

[Sean Leary]

PFerlicca:

Agree w you 100000000% on Sahalee -- especially when I see a gem like Galloway National get pushed further down the pecking order.

You are spot on -- too many bonus points are placed for hosting events -- has little to do with the real architectural elements -- especially for those courses that have architecture but little capacity or desire to host golf tournaments.

Matt do you really think a Senior Open carries that kind of weight? I don't.

Must have had some old ratings fall off to make that kind of jump though, no? Weird.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

You didn't answer my original question on Jim Engh / re: Black Rock.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yes, I think events do sway minds - especially the feeble variety.

Digest is losing ground in its ratings -- it still has the position because of the reach of the publication -- but Sahalee being included with other courses -- likely Ballyneal far behind -- is beyond laughable.

[Jim Franklin]

I am stumped at some of the Digest's ratings. I was glad, however, to see The Alotian get its due and join the rankings. Sahalee, Rich Harvest, Laurel Valley (I liked but the new conditioning criteria should have hurt this course), Congressional still ahead of BCC.....

[Sean Leary]

Sean:

Do you generally like Engh courses -- or not ?

And I'm curious to know which ones you have played and which one you liked the best ?

thanks,

Sorry Matt, I hadn't seen this.

Black Rock is the only Engh course I have played. I liked it and thought it was a fine course but not Top 100 worthy. Top 100 Modern, I can see that. I have talked to probably 20 people who have played Gozzer and BR and almost all 20 prefer Gozzer, most by a significant margin.

[Jim Franklin]

Sean:

Do you generally like Engh courses -- or not ?

And I'm curious to know which ones you have played and which one you liked the best ?

thanks,

Sorry Matt, I hadn't seen this.










Black Rock is the only Engh course I have played. I liked it and thought it was a fine course but not Top 100 worthy. Top 100 Modern, I can see that. I have talked to probably 20 people who have played Gozzer and BR and almost all 20 prefer Gozzer, most by a significant margin.

I take it that Gozzer didn't crack Top 100 either. I liked it better than Black Rock too, but only marginally.

[Brian Potash]

Is it wrong to ask for the list to be posted?  I know someone who works for GD but I think he can afford it.  Ill check my local Barnes and Nobles in NYC tonight but yesterday they still has the old issue.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is it wrong to ask for the list to be posted?  I know someone who works for GD but I think he can afford it.  Ill check my local Barnes and Nobles in NYC tonight but yesterday they still has the old issue.

Since it is only a quarter as wrong and half as often as posting Golfweek's annual top 400, go for it.

[Sean Leary]

Sean:

Do you generally like Engh courses -- or not ?

And I'm curious to know which ones you have played and which one you liked the best ?

thanks,

Sorry Matt, I hadn't seen this.










Black Rock is the only Engh course I have played. I liked it and thought it was a fine course but not Top 100 worthy. Top 100 Modern, I can see that. I have talked to probably 20 people who have played Gozzer and BR and almost all 20 prefer Gozzer, most by a significant margin.

I take it that Gozzer didn't crack Top 100 either. I liked it better than Black Rock too, but only marginally.

You were one of the 20:) I do remember though you stating that it "scored" higher than you liked it, based on the criteria...

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Thanks.

I do believe Engh should have a top 100 candidate -- likely could be a few others besides Black Rock. The Harmony Club just north of Denver gets little mention but it's worth a look by many - ditto for Pradera in Parker.

The problem with Digest raters is that they too often float a course or two to the top with heavy emphasis from a certain vote -- then a few years later things settle down.

I've said this before -- all new clubs should be held outside a top 100 until a few years have passed -- gets the newness issue out fo that way,

[JC Jones]

Sean:

Thanks.

I do believe Engh should have a top 100 candidate -- likely could be a few others besides Black Rock. The Harmony Club just north of Denver gets little mention but it's worth a look by many - ditto for Pradera in Parker.

The problem with Digest raters is that they too often float a course or two to the top with heavy emphasis from a certain vote -- then a few years later things settle down.

I've said this before -- all new clubs should be held outside a top 100 until a few years have passed -- gets the newness issue out fo that way,

There is a waiting period for Golf Digest.  Hence no Old Macdonald.

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

Then what's the excuse for them leaving out Kingsley and Rock Creek ?

I thought Digest changed from having a waiting period to no such thing now.

If wrong -- I stand corrected.

thanks,

[C. Squier]

JC:

Then what's the excuse for them leaving out Kingsley and Rock Creek ?

Seriously?  They just got around to adding Friars Head to the list.  If the Golfweek lists got blasted for 7 pages, I expect this list to surpass the Merion threads.