Why Isn't Leatherstocking More Widely Regarded?

[Ronald Montesano]

Jim,

Thanks for those stats. They are quite revealing. They certainly bolster the claim that Leather is well-situated.

JNC,

Let me recant a bit what I said earlier.  16-18 are certainly not bad holes, by a long shot. When I played Pete Dye's Irish course at Whistling Straits, I loved the course for the first 15 holes, then wanted to blow up the last three, so out of character are they with the other holes. I don't feel that way about the same stretch at Leather.  In order for it to elevate from that 6.0 that Jim suggests, however, I think that 16 & 17 would simply have to be better.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

My intent is not to insult JNC or anyone else for that matter.

I just don't want to be insulted for the personal visitis -- quite numerous that I have made over the many years. Again, just my opinions for sure -- but JNC is making sweeping generalizations and when the question of personal research is pushed -- he fails to acknowledge is really thin -- quite thin.

I am a big time fan of what NY and PA golf is about - but that story is overwhelmingly private. That's too bad. Plenty of courses were started from the public side but so little came through as a "must" play. Like I said -- check out the Poconos and Catskills as two leading examples of heap of low level golf.

Jim:

You credit the raters too much.

I can name plenty of other classic courses that have not even gotten a sniff of attention. The "don't cry for me Leatherstocking" show is fine and dandy -- but so many others -- are left on the sidelines wondering why aren't we noticed at all ?

One other thing -- the courses Leathersctocking are listed ahead is also dubious too.

[JNC Lyon]

Now I REALLY want to transplant Fox Chapel's 17th hole, the Biarritz, to the shores of Lake Otesaga. I think that 17 is the killer hole for me.

I get what Matt is saying about body of knowledge and I hope that JNC can admit that he has years ahead to gain that body of knowledge.  Matt has that direct way of speaking to people that is so uncommon these days in the states. It borders on insult and condescension at times, until you remind yourself to not read tone into his words.  If we were sitting at a bar, all of us, with a beer in hand after a round of golf, speaking these words instead of typing them, we would have a memorable and enlightening evening.

Ron,

I think I can agree with all of what you just wrote here.  I admit that I have plenty to see in terms of golf courses.  As I stated earlier, the only way for me to make the statement that "Leatherstocking belongs among the nation's best" is to compare to the golf courses that I have played that are already held in that regard.  Would it help for me to play more?  Yes, and I will do so in the future.  But for right now, I can only work with what I have.

As for your last line, truer words could not be said.  I have had multiple face-to-face discussions with Matt and others on this site about GCA and thoroughly enjoyed.  No hard feelings towards anyone.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
I'm not overly crediting anyone nor crying for Leatherstocking. All rankings, includingGW's, are somewhat subjective and some courses probably get overlooked, but until the system is improved it's what exists. If GW posted the number of rater visits and the years of those visits it would give the interested reader another bit of information to chew on.  

Please clarify this remark, it's somewhat garbled and ambiguous, probably typed with fast fingers    (thanks):   One other thing -- the courses Leathersctocking are listed ahead is also dubious too.

[Tim Martin]

Now I REALLY want to transplant Fox Chapel's 17th hole, the Biarritz, to the shores of Lake Otesaga. I think that 17 is the killer hole for me.

I get what Matt is saying about body of knowledge and I hope that JNC can admit that he has years ahead to gain that body of knowledge.  Matt has that direct way of speaking to people that is so uncommon these days in the states. It borders on insult and condescension at times, until you remind yourself to not read tone into his words.  If we were sitting at a bar, all of us, with a beer in hand after a round of golf, speaking these words instead of typing them, we would have a memorable and enlightening evening.

Ron,

I think I can agree with all of what you just wrote here.  I admit that I have plenty to see in terms of golf courses.  As I stated earlier, the only way for me to make the statement that "Leatherstocking belongs among the nation's best" is to compare to the golf courses that I have played that are already held in that regard.  Would it help for me to play more?  Yes, and I will do so in the future.  But for right now, I can only work with what I have.

As for your last line, truer words could not be said.  I have had multiple face-to-face discussions with Matt and others on this site about GCA and thoroughly enjoyed.  No hard feelings towards anyone.

For the record I love John Lyon`s passion about everything golf and am looking forward to meeting him. His enthusiasm and sense of adventure are infectious. 

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Just remember this -- I like Leatherstocking a good deal but the nation has plenty of undiscovered gems - there is a companion thread going on now about Morris Conty GC -- you should play it this summer -- contact me for a game -- then you will realize what I meant in my last post.

Your passion is genuine and I salute it -- just take it slow and you'll get there. I can say that at 53 now !

Jim K:

I agree - post # of rater visits -- best thing that can be done on state ratings -- is let state residents be the ones doing it. They are able to play and see such courses more times than a one time visitor coming in from Kansas and the like -- ditto in reverse.

My last remark -- forgive the garble -- I don't see Leatherstocking ahead of some of the other classic courses previously mentioned. Candidly, I have about 5-6 candidates from the metro NYC area that are not even mentioned and could be ahead of the course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
I take your word for it, and I find it amazing that there are at least a handful of classics that are completely overlooked as the category is limited and unchangeable. Too bad.

It's tough to remove the homeboy when rating courses, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.  On the other hand hyperbole, such as calling Leatherstocking one of the top 50 courses built before 1960, tends to make me ask "What isn't there" when I compare such a remark with the overwhelming commonality of the opposing viewpoints (even if they too are a bit flawed or subjective).

Leatherstocking is comfortably ensconced in its highly placed slot, it doesn't need false praise. 

[Ronald Montesano]

I want to know what those 5-6 are, too. Not being an Oscar Meyer, just curious. Start a thread, Matt.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Will do -- Morris County is one such example. Glad Joe B posted the thread -- maybe he or others can post some course pics too. I am somewhat challenged in that regard. Forsgate / Banks is another that comes to mind. The Knoll West could make a very good case too. How come no respect for the Meadowbrook -- one of Dick Wilson's finest efforts? Southampton GC is another fine short layout on the east end -- no doubt few think about it given the weight of its nearby neighbors. I credit Seawane for its efforts but the Tillie layout at Southward Ho! is the better of the two in my mind -- a grand finish for the final five holes that many don't even realize.

Jim:

I have never thought that anyone but actual residents should do the state ratings -- one can also count those who live just across the river from one state -- such as South Jersey people doing the Philly ratings and North Jersey people doing the metro NYC area too. The outsiders are often swayed by the "name" syndrome and as a result they spike the totals. I'd get them out of that situation because the state people live there and likely have played the subject courses in a range of ways -- different times of years -- etc, etc, etc.

[Dan Boerger]

I've played Leatherstocking 15 - 20 times in my life, but only twice in the last 15 years. Love it for many of the reasons given here. Conditioning was pretty poor when I played it last, with really uneven green speed (but there could have been a bigger issue they were dealing with, I'm not sure). 

I give it high marks for architectural value and plenty of quirk.

[Ronald Montesano]

You've never seen a transformation as you saw on the face of Kevin Lynch as we traversed the first three holes...he pronounced then and there that he love Dev Emmet for now and forever.

[John Foley]

What a great question...

I'm late to the dance so I'll add in a few comments and points along the way.

First and foremost, getting to Cooperstown is by no means an easy thing. Sure many find there way there with their family in the summer to see th Baseball HOF, but in that case a round of golf may not be possible. It's a 4+ hr drive each way from Boston, Philly or NYC so it's not a quick hitter those who live there or visitors to those area's. If you head to NYC / Boston or Philly there are more than enough choices to see in those area's than trekking to Cooperstown. Unless you are a sales-guy driving down I-90 frequently (that would be me) a student who is near by (JNC) a golf pro relatively close by (Jim K) or other golf nuts (Ron / Kevin / Matt) it may not be on your radar screen. I know we had a group of raters through there a few years ago, but I don't hear an overwhelming voice on here that many have even seen the place.

Lets talk about the pull - Bandon is a marketing juggernaut. There are more adds, PR and write ups in the golf course publication than anywhere else. Leatherstocking has a few adds and a write up in Links, but other than that there is nothing. Anyone who golfs wants to take the pilgramage to Bandon. How many evey know about Leatherstocking?

Jim K brought up a good point - Taconic better than Leatherstocking? That is another great question. I only have one round @ Taconic  and a dozen at Leatherstocking so the comparison is unfair for me. I would love to hear what others think.

Leatherstocking is filled with great architectural features.  The par fives are the hallmark of the golf course.  The 4th hole features a blind, downhill tee shot along the stone wall that guards NY-80.  This sets up a second shot over echelon bunkering to a slippery sidehill green.  The next one comes at the 11th, a massive par five to a fairway that cascades steeply from right to left and ends with a hidden hollow green that allows for all types of approach shots.  The 15th, my favorite on the course, is a short, sidehill five where hugging the high right side of the fairway leaves a good view and angle into a punchbowl green.  Finally, the grand finale at the 18th is a boomerang par five playing around Otsego Lake from a precarious island tee originally built on junked automobiles.  The par fives demonstrate all sorts of variety, excitement and strategy that continue throughout the rest of the course.  From the sidehill, two-tiered first green, to the 3rd green hard by the stone wall on Route 80.  From the Reverse Redan 9th, to the drop shot, bunker-laden 12th.  From the false front at the 6th, to the humpback fairway at the 13th, Leatherstocking is filled with whimsical features that inspire the player.

You hit most of them - I would add the 13th & 8th green sites as two of my all-time favorites.

As a course it stands the test. The routing is great. The small greens are a test and the tee shots are FULL of strategy. I wonder how many of those people who think it's too short @ 6400 yards walk off 18 with a score 5 strokes higher than there index and didn't loose a ball!

One question for the masses - who is open to a get together there? I would love to help out putting something togethere there if there is interest.

Send me an IM or drop me an email and we can see what we can get together.

[Kevin Lynch]

You hit most of them - I would add the 13th & 8th green sites as two of my all-time favorites.

One question for the masses - who is open to a get together there? I would love to help out putting something togethere there if there is interest.

Send me an IM or drop me an email and we can see what we can get together.

+1000 on 8 & 13, and that's not meant to disrespect how much I like 2, 6, & 10. 

Leatherstocking certainly fits the 100+ Mile Rule for me (or 200+ in my case), so I'd certainly be up for a road trip.  It will depend quite a bit on timing, as I’m already booked for trips to Kohler and Long Island this summer, as well as a brief trip to Turning Stone (yes, I’ll admit it) with Ron.  I may be pushing the “marital harmony” boundary.

However, what may work best is for Ron & me to extend our Turning Stone trip by a day.   I’ll talk to him to see if it makes sense and get in touch with you through PM.

[Kevin Lynch]

You've never seen a transformation as you saw on the face of Kevin Lynch as we traversed the first three holes...he pronounced then and there that he love Dev Emmet for now and forever.

The transformation Ron described was due to a few things.  I actively avoid reading anything about a new course I’m playing, so I have zero expectations or preconceptions (at least as much as possible).  However, I slipped up a little right before tee time and looked at the scorecard.  I said to Ron – “6,400 yards? Good lord, all I need is a “target golf” course where I’ll be hitting irons through narrow, tree-lined holes all day.”  Obviously, I was pleasantly surprised.  But the look on my face went far beyond a realization that the course was more open than I suspected.

Just to clarify, my declaration of love wasn’t for Dev Emmet (I don't want to be accused by Matt of making too broad statements based on my small sample size  ), but I had certainly seen enough of the course by then to know it was a special place.  Perhaps after Bethpage Green, I may be able to expand my statement to Emmet a little more, but Phil Young will need to be there to guide me between the Emmet & Tillie influences.

Still, I've played enough courses to know the difference between a course I'm "seeing" and a course I'm "feeling."  The ones that deeply touch my "golf soul" are rare, and Leatherstocking was one of them.  After the round, I try to rationally analyze what details make me feel that way.  However, I'm fine with accepting that I may not be able to articulate that "feeling" in an objective manner to others.  All I know is that I stood on the 3rd tee, looked around and literally “breathed in” the course, which led to goosebumps.

I don’t need to see 300 courses around the country to know that’s special.  And its relative ranking in some subjective exercise becomes even less relevant.  

JNC’s analysis of the course covers many of the “objective” points I could think of.  When people talk about courses, I often hear them talk about strategy, shot values, contouring and all the other “characteristics” that we use in our attempt to assign a “value.”  I often ask the same follow up question, “Did it inspire you?”  For me, the answer at Leatherstocking was a resounding “yes.”

(Ron Mon – I promise I’ll get the above up on the BuffaloGolfer website.  I’ve been struggling with my inability to describe the course in objective terms for a written review.  In writing the above, I realized that may be the true measure of how good the experience was).

[Mike Cirba]

Please just substitute Kevin's post for whatever else I was going to say.

Thanks Kevin

[Matt_Ward]

John F:

Happy to play there this summer if you arrange the details.

Kevin:

Well said -- the issue is not that Leatherstocking should have a higher appreciation -- but how high and over what courses ?

If it works for you so be it.

I can appreciate the "soul" dimensilon you mentioned -- I save that for places like Sand Hills or Rock Creek or Kingsley for me.

[Matt Bosela]

I've really enjoyed this thread and as a result of all the positive feedback, I have decided to drive to Cooperstown this weekend to check the course out for the first time. 

Can any experts tell me if it will be problematic finding a game as a single sometime in the early afternoon this coming Sunday?  I'm planning on spending the morning at the Baseball HOF and would head over to Leatherstocking in the PM.  Of course, if there are any GCA'ers in the area, I'd love to hook up for a game.

[Dan Byrnes]

I hesitate to jump into these course rating threads as I don't feel I have much expertise in the area.  Since Leatherstocking isn't far from me and I have played it several times I thought I would just add my perspective. 

I look at Leatherstocking as a fun and quirky old course that is certainly a fun place to play whether it is once or on a regular basis.  It used to have a very inexpensive "membership" and I had an aquientence locally who was a member.   

It is a quirky course with a lot of elevation change over a short distance and blind shots and such.  At my level I certainly don't see it as an easy course, being that if your off a bit it can mean a lot there.  My limited experience is that it's distance isn't a huge factor as it's not the kind of place you over power, more placement and strategy is key.

However,  from my limited knowledge base I don't think as a layout it compares to Taconic, Glens Falls Country Club, Sagamore  or even say Schuyler Meadows in the Albany Area as far as a layout.   I can't really comment on much of the Rochester other upstate Western courses as I don't have much experience with them but seemingly there are lots of courses my limited experience rates equal to or above Leatherstocking.

It very well may be full of wonderful acclaimed architectural features that I am not knowledgeable enough to appreciate. 

I view it in similarity to the "Hall of Fame" baseball game that used to be held at Doubleday field in Copperstown each year, really fun and enjoyable event but not exactly like playing at Yankeee Stadium or Fenway Park.  Sadly they no longer have the "Hall of Fame" game.  It got lost to the big bucks MLB has become.

Certainly if you going to Cooperstown to see the Baseball Hall of Fame or in the area for any other reason, make the time to tee it up at LeatherStocking.

Dan

[Kevin Lynch]

I hesitate to jump into these course rating threads as I don't feel I have much expertise in the area.  Since Leatherstocking isn't far from me and I have played it several times I thought I would just add my perspective. 

I look at Leatherstocking as a fun and quirky old course that is certainly a fun place to play whether it is once or on a regular basis.  It used to have a very inexpensive "membership" and I had an aquientence locally who was a member.   

It is a quirky course with a lot of elevation change over a short distance and blind shots and such.  At my level I certainly don't see it as an easy course, being that if your off a bit it can mean a lot there.  My limited experience is that it's distance isn't a huge factor as it's not the kind of place you over power, more placement and strategy is key.

However,  from my limited knowledge base I don't think as a layout it compares to Taconic, Glens Falls Country Club, Sagamore  or even say Schuyler Meadows in the Albany Area as far as a layout.   I can't really comment on much of the Rochester other upstate Western courses as I don't have much experience with them but seemingly there are lots of courses my limited experience rates equal to or above Leatherstocking.

It very well may be full of wonderful acclaimed architectural features that I am not knowledgeable enough to appreciate. 

I view it in similarity to the "Hall of Fame" baseball game that used to be held at Doubleday field in Copperstown each year, really fun and enjoyable event but not exactly like playing at Yankeee Stadium or Fenway Park.  Sadly they no longer have the "Hall of Fame" game.  It got lost to the big bucks MLB has become.

Certainly if you going to Cooperstown to see the Baseball Hall of Fame or in the area for any other reason, make the time to tee it up at LeatherStocking.

Dan

Dan,

Don't hesitate to jump in on these threads.  The only thing I can suggest is:

A)  Focus less on the quantitative ranking of a course (if you do, you run the risk of the Matt Ward "voir dire" into your qualifications to make any ranking statement)

B)  Like you did, focus more on your qualitative impressions of the course.  It's one thing to say "X is better than Y", but it is much better to say "I like X better than Y because of these features."


As for your post, I don't know much about the courses you mentioned, but I'd be curious if you can give some impressions of what you like about Taconic or Glens Falls that Leatherstocking may have been missing (or even give some idea of the types of courses you like).  It may simply be that you're more of a fan of "bigger scale" courses or aren't as big a fan of the "quirk" that people like me love.

There's not a right or wrong answer - Leatherstocking may appeal to people with certain tastes and be "nothing special" to others.

Glad to have you take part.  you may be precisely the person who can answer the original question - "Why isn't LS More Highly Regarded?"  Ultimately, the point of this is to generate discussion, rather than "win." 

You may look at JNC's reasons for loving it and say "that's something I hadn't really considered." Conversely, he may do the same when you give your thoughts.  There's so many things that factor into course design that I'm constantly learning here.
 

[Kevin Lynch]

I've really enjoyed this thread and as a result of all the positive feedback, I have decided to drive to Cooperstown this weekend to check the course out for the first time. 

Can any experts tell me if it will be problematic finding a game as a single sometime in the early afternoon this coming Sunday?  I'm planning on spending the morning at the Baseball HOF and would head over to Leatherstocking in the PM.  Of course, if there are any GCA'ers in the area, I'd love to hook up for a game.

Matt,

I'd be curious to hear your impressions when you get back.  I hope the course is in decent shape to give you a reasonable impression of what it can offer, despite the constant weeks of rain in the Northeast.

I know that one of my favorite WNY courses (Byrncliff) is much less impressive when you're slogging through the muddy fairways.

[Dan Byrnes]

Based on my local weather in Albany, I have to imagine Leatherstocking will be very wet.  From my experience it is already suffers in that category with its terain and drainage.  Its been pretty non stop rain around here the past two weeks.  Saturday is supposed to be ice so that might help the conditions on Sunday.  My home course is very saturated as of today.  So I don't think it will be the best time to play Leatherstocking but as a fun course its always a treat.

In answer to the other question regarding the courses I think are "better" than Leatherstocking, Glens Falls and Taconic.  Both are older style courses although on a slightly longer scale than Leatherstocking. Taconic as part of its recent renovation was stretched to 6800 yards and Glens Falls is about the same as Leather stocking I believe.  What I like better about these courses is the layouts are not as "quirky" with blind shots, big side hill lies, rapid elevation changes and such.  These courses seem more to me like the highly rated Weschester NY old school courses like a Quaker Ridge and such.  Certainly that style of course is what I enjoy the most.

Taconic is one you often see somewhat highly ranked, I could never see that prior to the recent renovation and tree clearing that took place.  Now its as with the tree clearing you can actually see what is there.

As I mention I am not a student of architecture and just know what I like and may be quite biased. There are lots of upstate NY courses and surrounding Vermont and Massachusetts that I feel are just a nice as Leatherstocking and provide a fun challenging round of golf with out the need for excessive length.  Not to take anything really way from Leatherstocking as its fun and enjoyable to play just doesn't stand out to me among many others.

Dan

[Matt Bosela]

Matt,

I'd be curious to hear your impressions when you get back.  I hope the course is in decent shape to give you a reasonable impression of what it can offer, despite the constant weeks of rain in the Northeast.

I know that one of my favorite WNY courses (Byrncliff) is much less impressive when you're slogging through the muddy fairways.

I'll definitely report back and hope to take some photos while I'm out there.  Based on some time spent on Google Earth last night, it looks like the course is only a short walk to the HOF as well, another bonus.

[Kevin Lynch]

Dan,

No need to qualify your remarks as not being a “student” – if you know what you like, your opinion and impressions are just as valid as anyone else’s.

The best part of your last response is this sentence – “What I like better about these courses is the layouts are not as "quirky" with blind shots, big side hill lies, rapid elevation changes and such.”

That’s exactly why qualitative comments are so much better than simple “X is better than Y” statements.

From your statement, I realize that what you deem as “negative” about Leatherstocking is exactly the opposite for me.  All the things you mentioned are things I enjoy about Leatherstocking (and courses in general).  It doesn’t mean I’m wrong and you’re right (or vice-versa), it just means that we have different tastes.

What’s good about this forum is that you may find people who have similar tastes as you, and it may help you discover courses that may be suited to your common tastes.  For example, based on what I’ve read from JNC Lyon, I’m pretty confident that if he recommends a course to me, I’ll enjoy it.

As you view more here, people will describe the nature of certain courses and you can make judgments as to what would suit your tastes.

[Ronald Montesano]

Dan, you don't think that Taconic has rapid elevation changes? What about that ridge that runs through the center of the course? That slope affects many holes. Remember #9, the downhill par three to a green that I believe is too narrow to accept the shot? That's both an elevation change and a quirky feature. I don't recall the same at Leatherstocking, with the exception of #16, a hole that I'm not a big fan of.

I agree with Kevin that variety is the spice of this forum. I don't know Glens Falls, although the website proclaims it to be a Donald Ross course. Kye Goalby, a fellow whom I know from college and respect greatly, has an interesting opening line on the course in this thread:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46453.0.html  Glen Rapaport calls it quirky, too, in this one-post thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40554.0.html

So I guess what one person considers to be "not as quirky," another pair do consider to be quirky. In the end, as Matt Ward constantly reminds us, you have to see the place. JNC, Kevin, to the Rossmobile!!!

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Just curious - do you believe the original premise of this thread -- that Leatherstocking should be "more widely regarded?"

And if so -- how much so ?

I think the course is fine right where it is and candidly there are a few other classic designs I can name that can easily trumpet what it provides and are in the same ballpark in terms of overall distance and challenge.