Why Isn't Leatherstocking More Widely Regarded?

[JNC Lyon]

The public course threads on New York State got me thinking about LEATHERSTOCKING a little bit more.  I have written about the merits of Leatherstocking several times on this site, and the few people on this site who have played the course seem to love it.  However, I constantly come back to Leatherstocking in my mind and start wondering, "why don't more people talk about Leatherstocking?" 

Mike Cirba put it best when he told me he thought Leatherstocking was the North Berwick of the United States (and it does have stone walls!)  Leatherstocking is 6,400 yards at maximum, but it is filled with wild terrain and brilliant architectural features that make it compelling from the first tee shot at the short first to the thrilling par five finisher along Otsego Lake.  Leatherstocking is great for a few reasons:

Despite a strangely-shaped property that causes a couple decent hikes from green to tee, Leatherstocking possesses a clever routing.  The course was cobbled together from an original nine by Devereux Emmet and several additional holes from Emmet, local pro Len Rayner, and NGLA member and local philanthropist Stephen C. Clark.  The result works beautifully, as the course works along the outer boundary of the course for the first 5 holes and drops down to the lake level for the 6th.  Then, starting at the 7th, the golfer climbs up into the hills to the east of the lake.  By the 11th tee, the golfer is high up above the lake with a beautiful view of the surrounding countryside.  From the there, the golfer slowly descends to lower elevations, before finally hopping off an escarpment on the 16th to play along the lake for the last three holes.

The routing also makes the golf course play much longer.  The longest par four is only 410 yards, but each of three longest fours, 2, 7, and 10, all play steeply uphill to heavily fortified greens.  Several holes will climb gracefully uphill, and then one grand par five will tumble back down, as at the 11th and the 4th.  The routing also takes golfers all varieties of terrain, meaning uneven lies are the norm.  In my first round in Cooperstown, I did not face a level lie until the 16th fairway.  Unlike many modern layouts, which string individual holes together in a stilted format, Leatherstocking is a journey, a story to be read and enjoyed.

Leatherstocking is filled with great architectural features.  The par fives are the hallmark of the golf course.  The 4th hole features a blind, downhill tee shot along the stone wall that guards NY-80.  This sets up a second shot over echelon bunkering to a slippery sidehill green.  The next one comes at the 11th, a massive par five to a fairway that cascades steeply from right to left and ends with a hidden hollow green that allows for all types of approach shots.  The 15th, my favorite on the course, is a short, sidehill five where hugging the high right side of the fairway leaves a good view and angle into a punchbowl green.  Finally, the grand finale at the 18th is a boomerang par five playing around Otsego Lake from a precarious island tee originally built on junked automobiles.  The par fives demonstrate all sorts of variety, excitement and strategy that continue throughout the rest of the course.  From the sidehill, two-tiered first green, to the 3rd green hard by the stone wall on Route 80.  From the Reverse Redan 9th, to the drop shot, bunker-laden 12th.  From the false front at the 6th, to the humpback fairway at the 13th, Leatherstocking is filled with whimsical features that inspire the player.

Leatherstocking is by no means a championship test, but it never relents in terms of inspiration and variety.  Even the 17th, which many consider the least-sophisticated hole on the course, features a heroic tee shot over Blackbird Bay that will test anyone's meddle at that stage of the round.  From beginning to end, I find it more interesting than several of the nation's most highly regarded courses, including places like The Country Club (Brookline), The Ocean Course at Kiawah, Galloway National, and Oak Hill (East) to name a few.

In my mind, Leatherstocking is brilliant throughout and compares well with courses that are highly-regarded on a national level.  So WHY does it not get more attention and respect from the American golfing community?

[Ronald Montesano]

It's a great 15-hole course? Meaning the first 15, of course. That's why it's not more highly regarded.

[Tom_Doak]

JNC:

The answer is right there in your second paragraph ... it's only 6400 yards long, and there are many panelist types who refuse to take a course of that length seriously, no matter how cool and fun it is.

[JNC Lyon]

It's a great 15-hole course? Meaning the first 15, of course. That's why it's not more highly regarded.

Ron,

What do you think the issues are with 16-18?  I think 18 is a tremendous finishing hole all the way around.  16 and 17 may have their issues, but they are definitely exciting at the right time in the round.  Besides, there are many courses that are well-regarded that have three or more underwhelming holes.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

JNC,
I was last at Leatherstocking in August of 2007.  Loved the experience.  The course is a good test of golf, very scenic, varied terrain.  
I agree with all your points.  The one thing I can think of in relation to the course not being more highly regarded is potentially the length on the card (although, as you said, the course plays somewhat longer due to the uphill par fours) and the general "quirk" of it, which I think most all on here enjoy.  If it lacks anything, it's just the "brute force" experience of, say, a BPB.  Which is fine.  There exists variation in all the holes, and I will go as far to say you could have an off day, but still enjoy yourself.  

Additionally, maybe, enough people just don't know about it.  It is in kind of a remote location (for the Northeast, at least), well removed from both I-90 and I-88.  "Are we there yet?"  

Like other courses such as Glen Ridge and Merion West, it's more "crafty" than "overwhelming", it has a subtle beauty to it, both to the senses and to a golfer's game.  I would imagine many would try to attack the course, and wind up on the wrong side of fairways, short sided on the small greens, with much higher numbers on the card than expected!  

To end the round, the golfer must execute a tee shot over water, with little room to bail out, in clear view of folks on the porch of the hotel.  Probably as intimidating as at BPB, maybe moreso because at BPB, you can probably find the ball and get it back in play after a missed drive, maybe escape with a 5.  Here, you must deal with water on the tee shot, the second shot, and third shot.  But, at no time does the hole feel contrived or out of place, "tricked up".  It just feels natural.    

If there's any beef I do have, it's not with the course, it's just getting there; NYS Police are waiting around all corners to pull over visitors for any infraction.  I even attracted attention by local PD for stopping (in a pull-out) to observe a large flock of wild turkeys.  Cop: "Can I help you?" Me: "I was just observing the flock of turkeys..."  So, a good golf experience can be soured.  

I don't have a lot of experience with the other places you noted beyond Galloway, but that's an apples to oranges comparison.  Maybe comparing ACCC or Seaview to Leatherstocking is more apt.  It's not a major championship course, it doesn't aspire to be.  It may be a more enjoyable round than many major championship courses, and I think for what it is, it's outstanding.  I would go back in an instant.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

JNC:

The answer is right there in your second paragraph ... it's only 6400 yards long, and there are many panelist types who refuse to take a course of that length seriously, no matter how cool and fun it is.

So, the problem lies in the panelists, not in the golf course.  That's their problem. 

[JNC Lyon]

JNC:

The answer is right there in your second paragraph ... it's only 6400 yards long, and there are many panelist types who refuse to take a course of that length seriously, no matter how cool and fun it is.

So, the problem lies in the panelists, not in the golf course.  Let the trophy hunters go to Oak Hill or wherever.

Isn't Prairie Dunes in the 6,400 neighborhood?  The Country Club is just over 6,500 in the members' configuration.  I'm not sure the length is the only issue.

Doug, I agree on the apples to oranges with Galloway, to an extent.  My point is that Leatherstocking is consistently inspiring throughout, whereas the courses I named, Galloway included, inspire more sporadically.  Additionally, I wouldn't write off Oak Hill completely, although the "trophy hunters" will usually ignore the West Course, which has more of the architecture.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

What Tom Doak said has some merit -- certain panelists will fixate on length and demands alone -- but try to realize this -- one iis speaking about the overall national scene -- the USA is a big place and frankly the level of public golf that I have been exposed to is quite competitive in plenty of areas. For every Leatherstocking that gets shortchanged -- there are a quite a few others that you have not played that should be there -- take Vista Verde and Rochelle Ranch -- two Ken Kavanaugh designs -- one in AZ and the other in WY. I can say without hesitation that they are both first rate public courses -- the first gets lost in the sauce of Scottsdale golf and the other is lost because so few people even think golf exists in WY. Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO is another superb public layout -- the handiwork of Jim Engh. Just really solid in all ways.

JNC, what Ron mentioned can hold back the course.

I like the layout a good bit but frankly how high do you think it can be ?

In NY -- it cannot break the top 25 if all courses are considered -- only Bethpage Black has the wherewithal to do just that.

Leatherstocking is a fun course to play and likely it needs to have more raters visit it to give it a bigger push -- but the line for other courses to get notice that get so little is a lot longer than you might surmise in my mind.

[David Kelly]

Isn't Prairie Dunes in the 6,400 neighborhood?  The Country Club is just over 6,500 in the members' configuration.  I'm not sure the length is the only issue.

PD is 6,600 yds and a Par 70 which makes a big difference.  Plus the ever present wind stretches out the yardage.

 I think Leatherstocking is hard to get to, has a short season and is isolated so a rater has to really want to see it or have his clubs with him when he goes to the HOF.  I also think the course is too quirky for some (not me) and has a weird finish that some may feel is out of character.  I don't know how much local play the course gets but it would be fun to play everyday. 

[Ronald Montesano]

JNC,

I honestly think it becomes a TPC on holes 16-18. You have a course with absolutely no reliance on forced carries for 15 holes. There is a wee brook that meanders throughout, true, but not to the degree that the ponds on 16 and 17, plus the lake on 18, come into play. I like 16 and 18 well enough (17 did little for me) but after the first 15, it's a shock to come into the closing three and get what you get.

However, reading what the others have posted, I'm not sure that this is what the raters use to hold it back. I would wonder if enough have seen it.

[Matt_Ward]

The argument that Leatherstocking is remote -- is quite lame.

If raters can get to Bandon and other such truly remote places getting to Leatherstocking should not be a handicap -- and if it is the handicap rests with such raters who should be former ones.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC,

I honestly think it becomes a TPC on holes 16-18. You have a course with absolutely no reliance on forced carries for 15 holes. There is a wee brook that meanders throughout, true, but not to the degree that the ponds on 16 and 17, plus the lake on 18, come into play. I like 16 and 18 well enough (17 did little for me) but after the first 15, it's a shock to come into the closing three and get what you get.

However, reading what the others have posted, I'm not sure that this is what the raters use to hold it back. I would wonder if enough have seen it.

Ron,

Each of those holes have plenty of bailout away from the water, so, despite the new introduction of hazards, they are not as penal as they could be.  16 has a creek that crosses the fairway and a lake right, but there is plenty of room left.  That hole also changes on a daily basis too.  If the pin is right, the drive should be left along the bunkers, and if the pin is left, the drive is right along the lake.  17 has the carry, but there is plenty of lawn out to the left for a bailout and easy four.  18 is probably the toughest of the forced carries, but it is still manageable and a very heroic way to finish.

I agree, 17 offers less than most holes on the course, but all three are an exciting and ultimately necessary way to finish out the layout.  They are definitely a change from the rest of the layout, but the golfer should know what to expect after the routing takes him close to 16-18 on holes 6 and 7.  Faulting Leatherstocking for its transition to the lakeside holes is a bit like faulting Merion for its quarry holes.  Those holes are different and much more penal, but for me they make, not break, the layout.

Matt,

I agree, remoteness does not make sense.  How many top golf courses are there in remote locations?  Many.  Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Prairie Dunes, Cape Breton Highlands Links, Ocean Course at Kiawah, Bandon, and many others are over an hour from the nearest major airport (Cooperstown is 1.5 hours from Albany).  In fact, remoteness seems to be a very positive trait on many top courses.

I haven't played enough downstate courses to judge New York's top 25.  However, I named several top courses that I thought Leatherstocking bested.  Would none of these make the New York top 25 either? 

David,

I think the course gets a decent amount of local play.  It is certainly packed there in the summers.  The season is short, but I have played the course twice in November, so it's not all that short.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Nothing against Leatherstocking but only Bethpage Black can make a top OVERALL NY course listing in my mind. The roster is THAT good.

Doak does raise a valid point on the length bias -- but I have to repeat what I said earlier -- the range of top tier public courses -- not ones with massive greens fees are certainly alive and well in the USA. I mentioned three (3) of them in my original post.

Let me ask you this -- how good do you see the course when held against the best of the best you have played to date. Is it in the top 10%? Top 25% I would need to know the context you are advocating. Leatherstocking is a fine play and worth checking out -- but when you raise the bar to national acclaim keep in mind the USA is a very big place with plenty of top tier competition of similar sort.

[Anthony Gray]

JNC:

The answer is right there in your second paragraph ... it's only 6400 yards long, and there are many panelist types who refuse to take a course of that length seriously, no matter how cool and fun it is.

  That is what many people overlook when rating courses....................FUN.

  Anthony

[George Pazin]

JNC, please consider doing an IMO writeup of Leatherstocking.

[Tim Martin]

JNC:

The answer is right there in your second paragraph ... it's only 6400 yards long, and there are many panelist types who refuse to take a course of that length seriously, no matter how cool and fun it is.

Tom-This is really a shame because there are so many golden age gems that get passed over because of the length issue.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC:

Nothing against Leatherstocking but only Bethpage Black can make a top OVERALL NY course listing in my mind. The roster is THAT good.

Doak does raise a valid point on the length bias -- but I have to repeat what I said earlier -- the range of top tier public courses -- not ones with massive greens fees are certainly alive and well in the USA. I mentioned three (3) of them in my original post.

Let me ask you this -- how good do you see the course when held against the best of the best you have played to date. Is it in the top 10%? Top 25% I would need to know the context you are advocating. Leatherstocking is a fine play and worth checking out -- but when you raise the bar to national acclaim keep in mind the USA is a very big place with plenty of top tier competition of similar sort.

Matt,

Leatherstocking is in the top 10 percent of courses I have played.  Like I said before, I definitely don't have a full experience of the best courses the US has to offer.  The best thing I can do is match it up against highly-regarded US courses that I have played and see where it falls.  Like I said before, I would play Leatherstocking over several top-rated courses, all of which I hold in high esteem.

I have not played enough great public golf in the US to put Leatherstocking in that context.  Those courses you named in the Western states are phenomenal, I'm sure, but I have no experience with them so I can't comment.  My guess is that, like Leatherstocking, they don't receive enough national attention.

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to argue that Leatherstocking needs to be ranked in some specific place in the magazine ratings.  My point is that it is a hell of a golf course that gets pushed into the background of the Upstate New York golf scene.  When I see Golfweek rank it behind places like Monroe, CC of Buffalo, and Oak Hill, I am disappointed.  While those are fine layouts, Leatherstocking is a notch above everything else in Upstate New York in my mind.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC, please consider doing an IMO writeup of Leatherstocking.

George,

If I can get some photos of the course, I would love to.  I have similar requests for an Oak Hill piece.  I guess there are just too many Upstate New York layouts with too little exposure.

[Tim Martin]

JNC:

Nothing against Leatherstocking but only Bethpage Black can make a top OVERALL NY course listing in my mind. The roster is THAT good.

Doak does raise a valid point on the length bias -- but I have to repeat what I said earlier -- the range of top tier public courses -- not ones with massive greens fees are certainly alive and well in the USA. I mentioned three (3) of them in my original post.

Let me ask you this -- how good do you see the course when held against the best of the best you have played to date. Is it in the top 10%? Top 25% I would need to know the context you are advocating. Leatherstocking is a fine play and worth checking out -- but when you raise the bar to national acclaim keep in mind the USA is a very big place with plenty of top tier competition of similar sort.

Matt,

Leatherstocking is in the top 10 percent of courses I have played.  Like I said before, I definitely don't have a full experience of the best courses the US has to offer.  The best thing I can do is match it up against highly-regarded US courses that I have played and see where it falls.  Like I said before, I would play Leatherstocking over several top-rated courses, all of which I hold in high esteem.

I have not played enough great public golf in the US to put Leatherstocking in that context.  Those courses you named in the Western states are phenomenal, I'm sure, but I have no experience with them so I can't comment.  My guess is that, like Leatherstocking, they don't receive enough national attention.

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to argue that Leatherstocking needs to be ranked in some specific place in the magazine ratings.  My point is that it is a hell of a golf course that gets pushed into the background of the Upstate New York golf scene.  When I see Golfweek rank it behind places like Monroe, CC of Buffalo, and Oak Hill, I am disappointed.  While those are fine layouts, Leatherstocking is a notch above everything else in Upstate New York in my mind.

John-I know many people are not fond of some of the changes to Oak Hill East but would you really put Leatherstocking in front of it? Just curious because I know how familiar you are with Oak Hill.

[JNC Lyon]

Tim,

I would absolutely put Leatherstocking in front of Oak Hill's East Course.  I have defended Oak Hill East on this site several times, but it gets harder for me to defend the golf course, as it gets more and more overgrown by trees every year.  The Fazio holes have been the bane of the course's existence for many years, but the layout also made up for it with many fine holes from the Ross/Trent Jones era.  In the last couple of years, though, Oak Hill East seems to have gone from a tough test filled with interesting holes to a golf course that is overly clogged by trees.  Holes that once required good ballstriking now require field goals between trees.

As a result, Oak Hill's variety has become very limited over the years.  Leatherstocking has its tree issues too (see 6 and 9, for example).  However, the course's great ground features and preservation of classic architecture have kept the course engaging throughout.  Leatherstocking's focus is on inspiration, whereas Oak Hill's focus is on being as tough as humanly possible beyond the point of reason.  For me, Leatherstocking is now easily the better choice than Oak Hill East.

As an aside, the West Course is an entirely different story.  Because it maintains the original routing, Ross greens, and a certain lack of trees, it is preferable to the East Course and one of the very best courses in the region.  For me, the West falls just behind Leatherstocking, and the two courses are my two favorites in the region.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Thanks.

Please list for me the several top other courses you have personally played that you would have Leatherstocking ahead.

I like Leatherstocking and getting more attention is certainly a plus for what it provides and how golfers going there can enjoy it.

But getting "more" attention can mean more state / regional focus -- not national. The bar for such courses, in my estimation, is rightly much higher. However, your point about courses with less than mega yardage is a good one and Anthony does raise a fair point -- the fun element is very important to a broader range of players and should be highlighted.

I have played a good sampling of many, many different public courses of similar sort to Leatherstocking and while it certainly merits more attention I would not say it's exclusion from a top 100 classic listing via GW or a top 25 overall NY course listing from GD is out of bounds.

JNC, you say the course doesn't need to be rated in the manner I alluded to -- so just what is it you do want ? Leatherstocking is a fine layout and worthy of a visit but let's not get carried away and think it is some sort of missing link in terms of architectural wonderment. If you think it's better than anything else in Upstate NY you will have some battle on your hands on that one.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

Places like St. George's in Toronto, Mountain Ridge, and May River are places that I have played that, in addition to the courses listed, are courses that I admired greatly but would still place behind Leatherstocking.  Long Shadow in Georgia is a very fine public layout that I placed a little ways behind Leatherstocking.  Like I said before, I have not played a comprehensive list of great US courses, so the best I can do is compare it to what I have played.

I guess I'm shying away from rankings because they have been so detrimental to the reputations of places like Leatherstocking.  I guess I'd like to see Leatherstocking discussed more thoroughly out here.  My hope is that Leatherstocking can get the same sort of attention that other classic gems, deficient in length get out here.

Like I said before, there are multiple upstate New York courses that fall into Golfweek's Top 100 Classic list that I find less appealing than Leatherstocking.  I cannot make judgments on New York's top 25 in Golf Digest (which many will tell you is a joke anyway), but I find Leatherstocking more deserving of a look at GW's top 100 than other layouts on there, as good as those courses are.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I don't see the national standing Mountain Ridge has attained -- count me on the negative side on that one. If any NJ course deserves more attention it's Essex County CC and the work that Bahto / Hanse did there. I have played St. George's and frankly, you may have lost your mind on that one. I have not played May River but reports I have gotten have been favorable.

Ratings provide perspectice and indicate preferences.

Talk about courses that get little respect -- then head to Morris County in Comvent Station -- mentioned previously by me when you the troop were busy playing that wonderful sporty executive layout in the AC area.

When you say that GD's top 25 in NY list is a "joke" -- please highlight for me where the laughter starts. Love to know specifics rather than bland generalized gossip and bitching and moaning. Please also tell me what GW's classic courses from its most recent top 100 that you would pull and elevate Leathetrstocking above. With all respect -- if you think Leatherstocking is a better layout than Oak Hill / East I believe you will be in a very small grouping who feel that way. So be it.

Remember what Ron mentioned about the last three holes -- truly disconnected from the others.

Discussing a course more is fine -- but pushing it beyond what it can provide is likely tied to your own personal preference than aything else. Provide the names of other courses that are overrated and I'd be happy to discuss -- but be forewarned I am not so giving on promoting executive layouts that have a quirk or two and not much else.

[Kevin Lynch]

JNC, please consider doing an IMO writeup of Leatherstocking.

George,

If I can get some photos of the course, I would love to.  I have similar requests for an Oak Hill piece.  I guess there are just too many Upstate New York layouts with too little exposure.

We may be able to help a little.  Ron M. took a few hundred pics of our day at Leatherstocking (see Photobucket link below).  However, it was a gray day and we were focused more on playing than finding the best photo angles, so they may not be the gorgeous "brochure" shots.

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Leatherstocking%201/

Hope it helps.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JNC,
Every time I played Leatherstocking I walked away having thoroughly enjoyed myself. Although not a person who is hung up on ratings I'd say that the Cooperstown gem isn't quite a WF East(#33), a Yale(#47), a Pine Needles(#69), an Ekwanok(#71),  a Taconic(#80), a Sankaty(#89), nor even a Dunes G&BC(#100).
 
That's just my opinion, but if the list stretched out another 100 places LGC would surely be there, and it is deserving of more acclaim.

As an aside, the ratings given to courses numbering 70 through 100 in GW's Classic list are 6.97 to 6.64. There must be quite a few classics with a point total of 6.63 or slightly lower.