Why Isn't Leatherstocking More Widely Regarded?

[David Kelly]

I agree, remoteness does not make sense.  How many top golf courses are there in remote locations?  Many.  Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Prairie Dunes, Cape Breton Highlands Links, Ocean Course at Kiawah, Bandon, and many others are over an hour from the nearest major airport (Cooperstown is 1.5 hours from Albany).  In fact, remoteness seems to be a very positive trait on many top courses.

Really?  First of all those are all way better courses than Leatherstocking.  Secondly some of them are resorts so the golfer who makes his way to Bandon has 4 world class golf courses to play plus incredible scenery and someone who goes to Kiawah has a dozen courses within an hour that can be played in addition to the Ocean course.  Even someone going to Ballyneal can add Sand Hills and Dismal River to a trip.

What percentage of people who go to Leatherstocking go for just the golf? 1%?  If it wasn't for going to the Travers Stakes at Saratoga and visiting the Baseball Hall of Fame even I wouldn't have made the trek to Leatherstocking and I'll go anywhere to play a good course.

[Ronald Montesano]

David aims toward a good point...what marketing machine is in place for Leatherstocking?  If it's a "come find us" and they are happy with it, ole'

It seems to me that any course with a desire to pimp itself can do so, in this age of in-your-face/in-your-home access. If Leatherstocking wanted more recognition, it could get it.

I'll go a step farther with 16 and 17 and say that they are average holes. If the other 15 are excellent period pieces (that can still take a bite out of you) and 18 is a crazy, one of a kind hole, 16 and 17 take away from the culminating stretch.

[Matt_Ward]

Frankly if Leatherstocking is to rise in appreciation I can name 4-5 Westchester or Nassau- county private courses that could also see a climb in appreciation for what they provide.

On the public side before Leatherstocking goes too far up -- it still needs to edge out the qualities of Tallgrass -- a truly under-appreciated public layout on the Island.

[JNC Lyon]

David aims toward a good point...what marketing machine is in place for Leatherstocking?  If it's a "come find us" and they are happy with it, ole'

It seems to me that any course with a desire to pimp itself can do so, in this age of in-your-face/in-your-home access. If Leatherstocking wanted more recognition, it could get it.

I'll go a step farther with 16 and 17 and say that they are average holes. If the other 15 are excellent period pieces (that can still take a bite out of you) and 18 is a crazy, one of a kind hole, 16 and 17 take away from the culminating stretch.

That makes sense, Ron.  As I pointed out in one of my posts, Leatherstocking is packed during the summer.  My father and I played there on a Tuesday afternoon, and we could barely find a space in the parking lot.  That indicates the golf course gets plenty of play, and the resort has no use to recruit out of the area.  Leatherstocking also manages to charge reasonable rates ($70 twilight in the summer) relative to the other top-rated publics in the region. 

I never meant to suggest that Leatherstocking was as good as Sand Hills (although I would suggest it is better than the Ocean Course).  I just wanted to point out remote courses do get national attention.

[Tim Martin]

JNC,
Every time I played Leatherstocking I walked away having thoroughly enjoyed myself. Although not a person who is hung up on ratings I'd say that the Cooperstown gem isn't quite a WF East(#33), a Yale(#47), a Pine Needles(#69), an Ekwanok(#71),  a Taconic(#80), a Sankaty(#89), nor even a Dunes G&BC(#100).
 
That's just my opinion, but if the list stretched out another 100 places LGC would surely be there, and it is deserving of more acclaim.

As an aside, the ratings given to courses numbering 70 through 100 in GW's Classic list are 6.97 to 6.64. There must be quite a few classics with a point total of 6.63 or slightly lower.

Jim-Don`t sell Yale short as they were # 41 and not #47. They need a little love right now as they just got beat by U Minnesota on the doorstep of the Frozen Four. Not bad for a school that does not give athletic scholarships.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC,
Every time I played Leatherstocking I walked away having thoroughly enjoyed myself. Although not a person who is hung up on ratings I'd say that the Cooperstown gem isn't quite a WF East(#33), a Yale(#47), a Pine Needles(#69), an Ekwanok(#71),  a Taconic(#80), a Sankaty(#89), nor even a Dunes G&BC(#100).
 
That's just my opinion, but if the list stretched out another 100 places LGC would surely be there, and it is deserving of more acclaim.

As an aside, the ratings given to courses numbering 70 through 100 in GW's Classic list are 6.97 to 6.64. There must be quite a few classics with a point total of 6.63 or slightly lower.

Jim,

Leatherstocking made the second 100, rating at 6.00.

I have not played the courses you listed, so I cannot compare directly.  Have you played Monroe or CC of Buffalo?  Both of these upstate courses rate in the Top 100, both ahead of Dunes.  Both places are fine layouts, but I see Leatherstocking being a step ahead.

Leatherstocking separates itself with its four par fives.  Those holes are filled with variety, as the player faces different types of hazards on each.  The echelon bunkering on 4, the hidden green on the monster 11th, the sidehill strategy and the punchbowl on 15, and the diagonal tee shot on 18 were all fascinating.  Very few par fives keep me engaged as well as the ones here.  While 4 and 15 might be a tad short length-wise, top players will struggle for 4s because of the greensites.  The par fives are what make the difference between Leatherstocking and several of the courses that I mentioned.

[Ronald Montesano]

With the exception of #17, I might say the same about the par threes.  That early one (#2 or #3) is beyond tremendous. #9 and #12 are also remarkable holes, although I wish that a right-handed draw were in play for #9.  #17 is unfortunately at the end and therefore, closest in the memory after the round.

Don't even get me started on the short par fours. Talk about overindulgence! I can't even begin to list them. If I say that #16 (which is a decent hole) is the least enjoyable par four on the course for me (even with the parachute tee ball), that says mucho about every other two-shotter.

[JNC Lyon]

Ron,

I agree on the par threes.  The trees on 9 are a bother, but the hole is still really cool.  Ever look at the shelf green from the 10th tee?  It's pretty much perfect.  17 is the weak link, but I like the hole more than some.  It is demanding par three that requires a solid iron shot late in the round.  The fact that is different from the rest of the course makes it a plus, because that type of hole works best as a one-and-done deal.  3 and 12 are great.  I love the front-to-back slope in the 12th green, which is subtle on a drop-shot par three like that.

The short fours are excellent as well.

Since the 5s, 3s, and short 4s are most of the golf course, and we agree they are excellent, where are the problems with this golf course?

[Ronald Montesano]

17 should be a biarritz...get your shovel and meet me there.

With luck, here is a pic of #9/#10 from the 12th tee

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Leatherstocking%201/IMG_4980.jpg

I think that the problem with #18 is not on the first shot, so much as the second. You have to bite off much less than you think from the island tee, then it's a question of how far to hit the second. I like the third into the green and I love the two-tiered green.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
Yales occupies spot #47 on GW's 2010 list of classic courses which was the one I used, I didn't know that the 2011 list was already in print.

JNC,
I haven't played the ones you mentioned, so I can't make a personal comment on them.
So many v.g. courses are in the realm of the "sixes" that it makes it hard to say which is more worthy of a fractionally higher placement, there is only 1/4 of a point separating #72 from #100.   

[Mike Cirba]

I'd place Leatherstocking in the Top 50 courses in the US built before 1960.

I don't have time to argue it at present, but I find it one of the most fun rounds of golf I've ever played.

I'm sure those who like to defend par at all costs will disagree, and that's ok too.    

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Please tell me what existing courses in the GW top 50 classic would need to move out to accomodate Leatherstocking's new inclusion? I'd love to hear the names and the rationale tied to them.

By the way -- I am not advocating that only courses where par is defended to the death need be included. Look at Morris County in Convent Station, NJ as a great example of that. If you believe Leatherstocking is a top 50 then at MINIMUM Morris County would make the top 100 of that same rating and I can name several others of that type as well.

JNC:

Please -- I can understand your love for Leatherstocking but to say "it is better than the Ocean Course (Kiawah) is really going over-the-top. No doubt you can have your own opinion but at what risk to credibility? Keep this in mind, who is to say that plenty of raters have already seen the course AND weighed in with their findings?

You need to realize -- as I have said numerous time on this thread - that plenty of other courses -- even more deserving than Leatherstocking have been left on the side of the altar waiting their fair share of attention. Leatherstocking exists in a world in which top tier public courses -- from throughout the USA (a rather large piece of land) are all competing for limited attention spans.

Check oiut Tallgrass on LI -- Hanse and his skillful team did a wonderful job there and that course isn't even rated among GW's top public for NY, if memory serves. Talk about a real oversight.

JNC -- one othe think -- when people have pointed out numerous other courses -- your basic reply is -- have not played it. You need some sort of overall context and that comes with having played a far wider portfolio of courses. I have no issue with your cry for justice for Leatherstocking but it needs to be balanced with your own homework which is towards the light side of things as of now.

[Tim Martin]

JNC:

Please -- I can understand your love for Leatherstocking but to say "it is better than the Ocean Course (Kiawah) is really going over-the-top. No doubt you can have your own opinion but at what risk to credibility? Keep this in mind, who is to say that plenty of raters have already seen the course AND weighed in with their findings?

John-I have to agree with Matt. Leatherstocking better than Kiawah Ocean? Although we are comparing modern to classic and bearing in mind that the Golfweek ratings are not gospel it just seems to me that you are a die hard fan of classic venues and don`t seem to want to give some of the great moderns their due.

[JNC Lyon]

Tim,

I say plenty of times here: I really like the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  I think Pete Dye did an excellent job out there, and there are several golf holes on that course that are among my favorites.  I give it plenty of due as a modern course, and I ranked ahead of several classic courses I've played.  I just held Leatherstocking in that high esteem.  That's why I wrote the thread about Leatherstocking, because I think Leatherstocking deserves praise that it simply does not get.  I have plenty of classic hidden gems that I could tout (and have touted in the past out here), but none of them are on the level of something like the Ocean Course.  In my mind, Leatherstocking is, so I chose to discuss it.

Why is Leatherstocking better?  Well, let's start with the par fives.  I think 2 and 16 at Kiawah are excellent holes.  The diagonal carry on the 2nd is well done, as the choice the golfer has to make on the second shot to lay up short of the hazard or carry across.  16 at Kiawah is very cool as well, mostly because of the deep bunker that guards the green.  Yet 16 seems very similar to the par fives at 7 and 11.  All three holes wind their way between sandy waste areas, none of which have any particular strategic significance.  I seem to get the same feeling on all of the par fives at Kiawah: shape it around the hazards, and don't miss the plateau greens.  Leatherstocking, on the other hand, has much more variety on the fives, as I have previously discussed out here.

There are several great par fours at Kiawah.  3, 13, and 18 are all classics, and holes like 9 and 10 distinguish themselves nicely with a wild green and a fearsome fairway hazard, respectively.  However, the fours seem to suffer from the same illness as the fives: repetition.  Whether it means shaping shots around marsh or sandy waste, Dye asks the golfer to do a lot of the same thing on each of these holes.  Moreover, Kiawah has no real short par fours.  The only ones that might qualify are the nondescript opening hole and the superb 3rd (I love the pushed up green here that allows for both aerial and ground attack), but after that it is all brutes.

The threes at Kiawah are tough all the way around.  14 is my favorite of the bunch, with a beautiful raised green containing Redan characteristics creating a unique challenge.  However, 5 and 8 don't appeal to me as much as they do to other players, though I recognize that 8 is highly original.  17?  Well, that's a very controversial hole, and I can't count myself as a fan.  The green is well integrated with its surrounds, but the hole is simply too demanding for its length.  Compare it to the 17th at Leatherstocking, which most people recognize as the worst hole on that layout.  17 at Kiawah requires a much longer club into the green, and it has no room for bailout.  17 at Leatherstocking, while being demanding, still leaves plenty of room for bailout for the weaker player.

There is plenty of great stuff at the Ocean Course, do not get me wrong.  It is very natural in appearance, and a look back down the 18th makes the course feel as if it has been there forever.  Yet many of the long holes seem to be filler when compared to the strong individual holes at Leatherstocking, all of which distinguish themselves beautifully from one another.

I find the routing to be superior at Leatherstocking.  I understand the elongated routing at the Ocean Course was unavoidable, but the course does not take the journey through the routing that Leatherstocking does.  The walk from 9 and 10 at the Ocean Course is almost unholy, and the course feels more like several good holes strung together rather than one cohesive unit.  The walk in the park at Leatherstocking is part of what makes it so special.  The walks at the Ocean Course seem to be a means to an end.

Finally, the Ocean Course is brutally difficult.  Other than the 17th, I find the challenge there to be reasonable.  However, a golf course loses some appeal when it becomes relentless.  I understand it is a true championship layout that can weed out the men from the boys, but it is less enjoyable on a daily basis.

[Tim Martin]

Tim,

I say plenty of times here: I really like the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  I think Pete Dye did an excellent job out there, and there are several golf holes on that course that are among my favorites.  I give it plenty of due as a modern course, and I ranked ahead of several classic courses I've played.  I just held Leatherstocking in that high esteem.  That's why I wrote the thread about Leatherstocking, because I think Leatherstocking deserves praise that it simply does not get.  I have plenty of classic hidden gems that I could tout (and have touted in the past out here), but none of them are on the level of something like the Ocean Course.  In my mind, Leatherstocking is, so I chose to discuss it.

Why is Leatherstocking better?  Well, let's start with the par fives.  I think 2 and 16 at Kiawah are excellent holes.  The diagonal carry on the 2nd is well done, as the choice the golfer has to make on the second shot to lay up short of the hazard or carry across.  16 at Kiawah is very cool as well, mostly because of the deep bunker that guards the green.  Yet 16 seems very similar to the par fives at 7 and 11.  All three holes wind their way between sandy waste areas, none of which have any particular strategic significance.  I seem to get the same feeling on all of the par fives at Kiawah: shape it around the hazards, and don't miss the plateau greens.  Leatherstocking, on the other hand, has much more variety on the fives, as I have previously discussed out here.

There are several great par fours at Kiawah.  3, 13, and 18 are all classics, and holes like 9 and 10 distinguish themselves nicely with a wild green and a fearsome fairway hazard, respectively.  However, the fours seem to suffer from the same illness as the fives: repetition.  Whether it means shaping shots around marsh or sandy waste, Dye asks the golfer to do a lot of the same thing on each of these holes.  Moreover, Kiawah has no real short par fours.  The only ones that might qualify are the nondescript opening hole and the superb 3rd (I love the pushed up green here that allows for both aerial and ground attack), but after that it is all brutes.

The threes at Kiawah are tough all the way around.  14 is my favorite of the bunch, with a beautiful raised green containing Redan characteristics creating a unique challenge.  However, 5 and 8 don't appeal to me as much as they do to other players, though I recognize that 8 is highly original.  17?  Well, that's a very controversial hole, and I can't count myself as a fan.  The green is well integrated with its surrounds, but the hole is simply too demanding for its length.  Compare it to the 17th at Leatherstocking, which most people recognize as the worst hole on that layout.  17 at Kiawah requires a much longer club into the green, and it has no room for bailout.  17 at Leatherstocking, while being demanding, still leaves plenty of room for bailout for the weaker player.

There is plenty of great stuff at the Ocean Course, do not get me wrong.  It is very natural in appearance, and a look back down the 18th makes the course feel as if it has been there forever.  Yet many of the long holes seem to be filler when compared to the strong individual holes at Leatherstocking, all of which distinguish themselves beautifully from one another.

I find the routing to be superior at Leatherstocking.  I understand the elongated routing at the Ocean Course was unavoidable, but the course does not take the journey through the routing that Leatherstocking does.  The walk from 9 and 10 at the Ocean Course is almost unholy, and the course feels more like several good holes strung together rather than one cohesive unit.  The walk in the park at Leatherstocking is part of what makes it so special.  The walks at the Ocean Course seem to be a means to an end.

Finally, the Ocean Course is brutally difficult.  Other than the 17th, I find the challenge there to be reasonable.  However, a golf course loses some appeal when it becomes relentless.  I understand it is a true championship layout that can weed out the men from the boys, but it is less enjoyable on a daily basis.

John-Thanks`s for the reply. As far as Kiawah Ocean being brutally difficult that is true-from the tips. If you play Leatherstocking back it is 6400 yards with a 70.8/135 CR/Slope. If you play Kiawah Ocean from the Dye tees it is 6475 with a 72/134 CR/Slope. Even though wind is usually a factor at Kiawah I don`t think it is relentless at the setup I referenced. Anyone that plays Kiawah all the way back without the requisite set of skills is in for an absolute nightmare. I disagree that Kiawah loses some appeal and is less enjoyable on a daily basis if one chooses the tees that are compatible with their skill set. I would be thrilled to be marooned on Kiawah and be forced to play the Ocean Course every day.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC / Tim:

It is quite silly to see Leatherstiocking as the better of the two when held against Kiawah's Ocean Course. No doubt JNC you have your own personal preferences and that's just fine -- but you run the risk in losing your credibility when you gush on and on about Leatherstocking being seen at a higher level but you have such a tiny scope of courses to weigh it against.

Tim, you are 100% spot on - playing the appropriate tees is what is needed. The Ocean Course presents a very fair challenge when people know what they can and cannot do when playing there. The issue for anyone playing The Ocean Course is the daily winds which can whistle quite briskly when playing there. Leatherstocking is fine for what it presents -- but to move up that far in class against such strong competition is just rubbish -- no doubt personal preferences play a role here and I accept that -- but credibility gets completely neglected when such a flawed comparison is pursued.

Tim -- your last line is so apt to JNC, "...  it just seems to me that you are a die hard fan of classic venues and don`t seem to want to give some of the great moderns their due."

[JNC Lyon]

Matt, Tim, et al.

Recently, I posted very positive reviews of Galloway National and May River, both of which are modern courses designed by Fazio and Nicklaus.  I gave these courses a very close look and a thorough description of their merits.  In the past, I have praised the Ocean Course on this site and discussed why I think it is an excellent golf course.  I have played many classic courses that I do not believe is as good as the Ocean Course.  I have never played a Ross course as good as the Ocean Course.

I'm going to stop defending myself on this point from now on.  I have repeatedly shown that I have an appreciation for modern golf architecture, and many folks simply choose to ignore it and label me a moderns basher.  I guess its easier than discussing the actual architecture on the ground.

[JNC Lyon]

On the Ocean Course's difficulty: I balked a bit at adding that last part of my post, thinking it might distracting from the other six paragraphs.  Turns out I was correct. 

Yes, the Ocean Course is easier from the regular tees, but the combination of the wind and hazards make it more difficult than Leatherstocking on a daily basis.  I think I could play the Ocean Course every day, but I would definitely enjoy Leatherstocking more on a daily basis.  That is probably due to the routing at Leatherstocking more than any other factor.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Let me again point out -- you completely trashed TF when you have played what -- a token 2-3 of them at best ? Then you play Galloway National and your eyes open up. Guess what? Maybe it might be best to wait to play a few other TF courses before you continue with your Darth Vader take on what he has collectively done.

C'mon, JNC you are very bright and I salute your passion -- but often times you get a bit ahead of yourself and wish to make broad sweeping comments when your own personal visits is on the narrow side of things.

If you love Leatherstocking for all the reasons you mentioned -- that's fine. But, when you start to branch out and proclaim it's better than a bonafide top 50 USA course then you begin to lose serious credibility.

If you want to see a Ross capable in competing with the likes of The Ocean Course -- try Plainfield, try Inverness (even with the changes made), try Pinehurst #2, try Seminole, etc, etc, etc. The Ocean Course is very well done and the demand side if only present if one pushes one's limitations too far.

Your appreciation for modern architecture is present -- the issue is doing the necessary homework before taking broad generalizations to the nnnth degree. I have weighed in with considerable personal observations gleaned from 35+ years in playing the various suspects being discussed. My opinion only matters to me and my opinion is just that -- mine. But, I offer it from having played a broad section of courses and then weigh in with how they stack up against one another. Leatherstocking deserves more awareness from raters -- that much I agree. But Leatherstocking has its flaws too -- as Ron has mentioned. Let me also point out that plenty of other courses -- public and private -- as I have mentioned -- should be considered higher than even Leatherstocking -- come to Jersey next time and play Morris County GC as one example. There are others.

Please don't misunderstand me -- it's fine to have personal preferences but try to see the flip side of the coin before deeming what has been said as being inconsequential.

[Sean_A]

JNC

I wasn't enamoured with the 7th as it reminded me a bit of the handful of weak par 4s (being the weak link of the course) on the course.  It is certainly a matter of opinion if you care for a hole or not, but to say Kiawah's 11th has no strategic merit due to the sandy area(s) is not what I would call an accurate statement.  The hole zigzags between two waste areas.  For those who can bang the ball its possible to take on the short right WA for an open go at the green in two.  Otherwise one can hit straight and then contend with the long left WA for a go at the green in two.  Pick your medicine, but one must deal with a WA to get home in two.  However, it is possible to follow the zig zag and avoid the risk.  This may not be one's perfect example of a risk/reward hole. but it certainly is one with the added benefit that one can choose on either the first or second if he wants to take on a serious risk.  




My comments have no bearing on the quality of Leatherstocking as its one of those courses which is quite high on my list of places to see.  The photos make the course look very interesting and up my alley.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

On the Ocean Course's difficulty: I balked a bit at adding that last part of my post, thinking it might distracting from the other six paragraphs.  Turns out I was correct. 

Yes, the Ocean Course is easier from the regular tees, but the combination of the wind and hazards make it more difficult than Leatherstocking on a daily basis.  I think I could play the Ocean Course every day, but I would definitely enjoy Leatherstocking more on a daily basis.  That is probably due to the routing at Leatherstocking more than any other factor.

John- I think you make a very good case as to the merits of Leatherstocking. That is not the issue with me. The issue is that you make quite a leap in stating that it is a better golf course than Kiawah Ocean. You can back peddle all you want at this point but your observations re Kiawah are all over the board. I`m not looking to beat this to death but go back and read some of your posts and then tell me that they are consistent.

[JNC Lyon]

This is all very frustrating.  When I make a general statement that I prefer Leatherstocking to the Ocean Course, I am making wild generalizations.  When I clarify such a statement with a long explanation about how I like some features of a golf course but not others, I am back-peddling.

I said there are several great par fours at Kiawah, but they get repetitive after awhile.

I said that I could play Kiawah every day, but its routing and difficulty issues would make it less appealing on a daily basis than Leatherstocking.

Both of these statements seem to be consistent and make sense.  Just because I say I like several features and holes at the Ocean Course does not mean I am back-peddling from my original statement.  Saying that I prefer Leatherstocking to the Ocean Course does not mean I love Leatherstocking and hate the Ocean Course with a burning passion.  I think both are very fine golf courses, and I have said that MANY times throughout this thread.  I just think the Ocean Course has some issues (most of which are minor) that makes prefer Leatherstocking.  I have a tremendous respect for the Ocean Course, and the fact that I think Leatherstocking is better is more a reflection on the greatness of Leatherstocking.  That's why I started the thread in the first place, because I truly believe Leatherstocking belongs in the company of the nation's best.  If you don't agree, that's fine.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Leatherstocking among "the nation's best." How do you know that if your personal sample size is that small ?

Keep in mind, you trashed TF based off of how many of his designs you have played ?

Credibility right ?

No problem in liking / loving Leatherstocking-- the issue is context and having a portfolio to back-up making such sweeping statements on its overall placement.

[Ronald Montesano]

Now I REALLY want to transplant Fox Chapel's 17th hole, the Biarritz, to the shores of Lake Otesaga. I think that 17 is the killer hole for me.

I get what Matt is saying about body of knowledge and I hope that JNC can admit that he has years ahead to gain that body of knowledge.  Matt has that direct way of speaking to people that is so uncommon these days in the states. It borders on insult and condescension at times, until you remind yourself to not read tone into his words.  If we were sitting at a bar, all of us, with a beer in hand after a round of golf, speaking these words instead of typing them, we would have a memorable and enlightening evening.

[Jim_Kennedy]

There are a finite number of courses built pre-1960, the USGA puts the number at just under 5,745 in 1958, and 2,437 of those consisted of 18 holes/2,986 were 9 holers. Three hundred courses were under construction in '58 with 900 planned for '59.

Given the construction numbers/dates I think it's safe to assume that there would be about 3,000 courses of 18 holes that fall into the pre-'60 category, and Leatherstocking's present day spot on the classics list, #174, places it within the top 6%.  

That's rather impressive in and of itself, and I don't feel the course is being slighted when I read the list of places that precede it. Courses #101 through 173 include places like MPCC Dunes, TCC (Pepper Pike), Linville, Deepdale, Greenbrier(Old White), Lookout Mtn., Essex County CC, French Lick(Ross), etc., and the nine courses at 6.00 that Leatherstocking is tied with include places like Tamarack, Seawane, and Old Elm.

I can’t say that I’ve played any great number of the above, but the collective wisdom of many players/raters was used in placing them. It’s also notable, to me anyway, that course #101 has a rating of 6.74. Perhaps more views of the gem in Cooperstown would add a few tenths to its total, but moving up through the ranks of  the ‘sixes’ is not an easy task. The course has been fairly recently renovated by Cupp and as noted, the tee sheet is ‘full’, so I don’t see the ownership throwing any large scale money at it to ‘restore’ it in an effort to generate any hype.