NY and Pennsy Public golf ...

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,

You seem like a top-shelf guy, but I'm confused as to how you can go on and on, post after post, without giving us a list of what you consider to be these great public courses from the states you mention.  How about you give us your list and I'll see if I can match it with NYS and PA courses?  You need to provide evidence along with your claims.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Fair enough -- what state would you like me to throw forward -- how bout Indiana and Colorado? Or even AZ and NM -- happy to oblige.
Ron, I live in the northeast and despite the private side being stellar - the public side has really been nonexistent. Indiana doesn't possess the rich diversity of land characteristics like NY or Pennsy but it has a rich and stellar field of public courses. The Trophy Club, Purgatory, Rock Hollow, Otter Creek, Hulman Links, Bear Slide, The Warren Course, Christmas Lake, French Lick -- I can name countless others from The Hooser State that are well beyond the likes of what you generaly find in public circle in NY or PA. Colorado is blessed with even more noted courses such as Four Mile Ranch, Lakota Canyon, Red Sky Ranch / Norman Course, Highland Meadow, Bear Dance, Falcon Creek, Redlands Mesa, Haymaker, Murphy's Creek, and on and on it goes.

I have tons more "evidence" partner -- more than happy to go toe-to-toe to support my claims.

Steve:

Yes, I have played BS -- saw it last year after the renovation. Nicely done but Tillie did far better elsewhere and given the low bar that Pennsy has for public golf -- the course is rated highly because of its presentation, bunker style and a few greens of note. Throw BS in AZ and it would be lost among the high bar competition that is public golf in the Grand Canyon State.

Only Bethpage Black would crack a top ten listing if were to compare AZ public golf and that of The Empire State. Certainly the same would be the case if Colorado were thrown into the mix -- and even NM would do very well when held against NY and PA public courses.

David:

Let me take your argument and throw a few points back for you to consider.

Yes, there are a range of privately owned but publicly operated golf courses in the NY metro area. Stephen Kay did a stellar job with The Links at Unionvale -- it's better than most others in The Empire State but if I placed it in Indiana or Colorado it'd be lucky to take a footnote of attention. I mentioned Mansion Ridge and Centennial in NY but they are more geared towards sucking the $$ out of one's wallet -- they have their moments but they are fleeting -- they were also designed by Nicklaus and Larry Nelson respectively.
There are a few on Long Island as well - Middle Island, Spring Lake, Long Island National, Tallgrass -- and a few others -- but really Tallgrass is the only one of note and it's not even rated on the state listing by one of the major pubs. How nice.

I mentioned what Pete Dye and son did at Pound Ridge -- a monument to extreme demands and unless some major modifications are implemented will likely dye (no piun intended) a long and slow death because people don't have the desre to lose a dozen balls with each round.

David, check out the collective ages of the courses that JNC Lyon and others have mentioned on the best courses of Upstate New York. Most of them are relatively young and while they have their moments I'd certainly not recommend someone coming from say 250 or more miles to specifically target them for special attention. Many are bult on noindescript farmland and while some have their moments the totality of what is there is not worth the investment of time, gas money and energy to get there.

You also mentrion the Catskills -- what a horrific place for qualitry architecture despite so many attempts at getting it right. If it's possible the Catskills make the pathetic Poconos look like a golf mecca of sorts. The Monster Course at Kiamesha Lake is an absolute joke. Just pure distance for distance sake and with little to show for it. Grossinger's is a better play but frankly I'd rather play plenty of other options than trek the 100 or so miles from Northern NJ to play any of the courses there. the sleerp in the lot is Kutsher's but even there the sheer collection of holes isn't really special to merit a particular drive to play it alone.

In regards to the upstate area -- there are some really good private layouts to play -- most of them have been mentioned and it goes beyond the likes of Oak Hill in the Rochetsre area. Buffalo has a few of them too. But the public side has simply not kept pace. I don't; doubt the shifting denmograhpics as people have shifted from living there to moving elsewhere -- developers are keen to such situations and likely invested their $$ in other locales where more people were looking to reside -- either permanently or with second homes and the like.

The quality of the land is there but nothing of real compelling sorts -- worthy of real acclaim not just localized applause -- is present.

You say the golden age courses top the public list -- really. Check out the top ones mentioned by a few of the golf pubs -- most of them are fairly recent and even those are quite one dimensional and lacking anything of real presence.
Despite all these efforts in different places the collective contributions on the public side have been a real dud.

Pennsy is no winner either. Like I said the Poconos has had public golf for a very long time and nearly evething there is at best mediocre -- save for 2-3 that merit some attention but nothing worthy of regional acclaim.

Someone said to me don't expct much to change -- NY and PA are falling behind the growth of othe states and the private side is still the bedrock in why people should play such courses - provided they have the key word -- access. Like i said before -- thanks to KBM for elevating Pennsy golf with the addition of such place like Morgan Hill and Lederach -- but there have been so many flameouts previously by a whole host of architects.

[Ronald Montesano]

All right, Matt, I'm all in. Let me ask you this...does topography have anything to do with the grandeur of the courses you mentioned in Colorado? I'm going to suggest that Indiana and New York/Pennsylvania have similarly-flat topos, so we'll get to that one after we settle this question.  As I stated in another thread (I believe the upstate NY one), most upstate courses of worth have 14 excellent holes and 4 good ones; this keeps them out of the "Top 100 You Can Play" strata.  Would you say that topographical changes allow good holes to become great ones in Colorado, or are these courses simply filled with 18 excellent holes?

Another question...are the aforementioned CO courses affiliated with destination resorts? Those don't get built a lot in NYS nor in PA.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

OK -- let's debunk the topography argument -- Murphy's Creek has hosted the Men's Public Links and it's relatively flat -- ditto for the likes of Falcon Creek and Highland Meadows. Vista Ridge -- by Jay Moorish is also well done given the flat land it occupies -- so is the likes of Haymaker which is designed by Keith Foster and no doubt CommonGround by Team Doak has nada elevation changes. The idea that Colorado public golf gets a spike because of unbelievable land sites is not true as some people, you included, might claim. There are good holes there -- irrespective of the lack of eye-catching terrain. In simple terms -- such designs could just as well have happened in NY and Pennsy -- but they were not.

Let me also point out Four Mile Ranch and Lakota Canyon are not destination sites. Just privately owned daily fee courses that were done extremely well by architect Jim Engh. So is Bear Dance in Larkspur. Fossil Trace is a well done muni in Golden -- not a destination place. There are exceptions as destination places but since they are open to the public why should they not be considered ?

Please help me out -- what upstate NY course is worthy of a top 100 you can play ? Steve S listed GW's top 100 modern and classic and only Bethpage Black made the listing.

You say destination places don't get built in NY or PA -- what is Turning Stone in NY ? What is Nemacolin Woodlands in PA ?

Ron -- let me say this -- if someone went to CO for public courses alone they would be quite content to the max. The same cannot be said for the dearth of solid choices you find lacking in NY and PA on the public side of the aisle.

[Kevin Lynch]

Matt,

What exactly are you trying to get out of this thread?  Are you trying to understand WHY the gap may exist or are you just here to point out that there is a large gap (which, for the most part, people aren't arguing against)? 

If your desire is to understand WHY, then a number of people have pointed out many reasons, such as (speaking specifically to upstate NY):

-  Perhaps the architect just swung & missed
- The demographics of the state weren't clamoring for upscale public courses (blue-collar / agricultural). 
-  Some parts of the state have farmland topography, which requires some pretty special talent from Architects.  In this case, they either missed (Turning Stone) or the price point wouldn't have been justified given the demographics of people not already served by the higher quality Private Courses (which are still pretty cheap compared to National levels)
-  Other parts of the state are very hilly (Southern Tier) and have so much slope that they tend to be quirky layouts that may not garner widespread adoration (Holiday Valley / Elkdale / Peak 'n Peek).  This is similar to much of NW Pennsylvania (Penn Hills Bradford / Blueberry Hill / Coudersport / Kane / St. Mary's).  Could these pieces of land been utilized better?  Perhaps, but then we're back to the same explanation as above (swing & a miss / price point not justified).

No one's trying to make excuses, it's just the way it is.  What more are you looking for in terms of explanation?

You point out Indiana and Colorado for their Public Golf.  I'm just curious, how many of the courses you noted above are $40-$60 in season with Cart like you do at courses in Buffalo / Rochester?  Turning Stone is an overpriced "swing/miss" (along with other more expensive options).  But for the most part, that's the price point that has been set by the two most populous Upstate Cities.

There just isn't a critical mass of population in Upstate NY clamoring for a steady supply of Doak 6-7 courses for everyday play.  Do I wish there were more options? Sure.  But the above reasons make it not so difficult to understand why it has evolved this way.

*******************
Now if your purpose isn't to understand "WHY" but simply to point out the gap between the public and privates, I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish.

But when you make comments like "farmland stuff that calls itself golf in NY and PA should have been plowed under and returned to hosting crops" or that the courses "should be more than a hole in the ground", it comes off as pretty elitist.

The "farmland courses" serve a purpose for plenty of people.  Seniors, Juniors, or even just the guy who couldn't tell you what the hell a Doak Scale is.  I hear comments from many of them extolling the virtues of our local county muni (Doak 3) which provides unlimited golf for $350 a year ($250 for seniors).  If they didn't serve a purpose, the courses would go under or require a subsidy (neither of which has happened).  It may not serve your purpose, but it still has value.

And I would argue that there are plenty of courses that are more than a "hole in the ground" and certainly more interesting than farmland.  If I were to maintain an attitude of "If it's not a Doak 6, I'm bored", I'd be a miserable person.  But I'm not.  I'll play the Greystones, Ravenwoods, Byrncliffs, Holiday Valleys and many others like them for my frequent rounds, and enjoy them for what they are, rather than obsess about what's missing.  If I need the occasional fix of something more, I'll get in my car and travel.

[Steve Burrows]

Matt W,

First, like Kevin Lynch in the previous post, I am also unsure as to what you intend on answering here.  As it stands, the question it is far too broad, and well outside the purview and expertise of this discussion forum. To be properly answered, it would need to be completely deconstructed and attacked by a whole team of economists, cultural historians and otherwise.

Second, let us really think about the "quality" of public golf in these places that you say they are strong, such as Indiana, and though I am not a fan of using the Doak scale (it is his construct and has different meanings for him than it does for any of us), I will use it because you have invoked it.  Are you honestly saying that any of those course you mentioned (The Trophy Club, Purgatory, etc.) are "necessarily worth a special trip to see," if you are NOT already in town, per the Doak 6 rating?  Would any of these courses be above that ranking?  Would you be truly willing to travel from New Jersey just for the privilege of playing these?   Indeed, they are regional, if not just local amenities, and were likely not intended for anything more than this.  The courses in NY and PA that you lamenting are probably likewise.  They just weren't meant for anything else but to be local amenities.

Third, please play by your own rules.  One of your original premises was the "GAP" between the public and private courses.  You have discounted the likes of DC, because of the lack of strong private courses, yet you still include Indiana.  But whereas Indiana's public courses may well be above average, the GAP is really not that big, because the private offerings are not as strong; neither Crooked Stick, Wolf Run or anything else can in any way compete with the private clubs in NY or PA.  Even our (I am from Indiana) good courses are far from great, at least by your criteria.

So again, what is your point?

[Tim Martin]

Cliff, CT doesn't have anywhere near the gap as NY and PA have when privates are held against publics. The Bay State has a fine range of public courses -- does the name Crumpin-Fox ring a bell -- shall I mention the roster of courses along the Cape? Shennecossett ring a bell ? The gap is what I mentioned -- NY and PA have a significant wider one than anywhere else I can imagine.

Matt-I would hardly call Connecticut a treasure trove of fine public golf. Besides Richter, Shenecossett, and Timberlin Park what would you consider "fine"? Maybe Wintonbury could get thrown in but it`s not my cup of tea.

[John Foley]

Matt - I lived in CA, MA and FL back in the late 80's / early 90's and they we're all severly lacking for quality puiblic courses back then.

The quality of the public courses I get here in UNY, and more important the value and accessability the offer is great. You drop Greystone, Ravenwood, Leatherstocking, Ivy Ridge & Hiawatha in a major metro are in the NYC - DC corridor or in the midwest and they go to the top of the lists of public courses in that area.

I'll agree that public courses in the metro NYC area / LI & Philly pale in comparison to the world class privates, but to lump all of NY in with that is doing a dis-service to the value & quality we enjoy here in UNY.

[Andy Troeger]

That Digest list for Arizona is from 2007, for what that's worth. The 2009 list was even worse as public options go. With that said, I think the list ignores a few pretty good public courses, including We-Ko-Pa, Dove Mountain, and Vista Verde. It is probably true that 20 of the 25 best courses in the state are private, but the public ones are not really all that far behind in terms of actual quality. I don't Troon North, The Boulders, Talking Stick, or TPC are really as good as their reputations would indicate. I'm with Matt in that I'd take the public courses in Indiana or Colorado as a whole over either one.

Indiana's best private clubs might not stack up with NY or PA, but don't discount Wolf Run and Victoria National (and Crooked Stick). For the life of me I don't understand why Wolf Run isn't in the top fifty nationally and Victoria National is only slightly behind. Crooked Stick is a solid top 100 course too. Wolf Run and Victoria National are both higher on my list than anything in Arizona, for example.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

With all due respect -- the issue is not whether quality public courses existed in those places you lived -- but the GAP between what was there and what existed on the private side of things. NY and PA have mega GAPS between the private and public side of things.

Let me point out, as Steve S did previously on this thread -- all of the public courses you cited from Upstate NY -- only Bethpage Black is able to crack GW's top 100 in either the modern or classic side of things. What does that mean? Sure, you mention Greystone, Ravenwood, Leatherstocking, Ivy Ridge & Hiawatha -- place them in CO and IN and they are literally swallowed up by the ones I mentioned. I've played the ones you mentioned -- they are certainly worth a play -- Leatherstocking is the more compelling of the lot you provided but even there it is not THAT good to sniff a placement for national consideration.

You say they would go to the top of the list in the Midwest. Really? What state are we talking about ? It's certainly not IN. Or Wisconsin. Or Minnesota ? Or Illinois ?

John, I don't make such broad statements without the personal visits to back them up. NY and PA have stellar private side golf - that is irrefutable as you and others concede. When I gauge the totality of what NY and PA have from the private side and then hold that against what is offered on the public side -- given the history, population and exposure to the game -- the GAP is quite obvious. I didn't say all public courses are worthless -- no doubt you find the ones you mentioned as being valuable and quite fun for you. Are they especially noteworthy? You and I will likely part company on that answer.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I never said CT is a "treasure trove" of top tier public golf -- but size up the GAP in CT with what I find in NY and PA and it's clear to me at least that what you have in CT isn't anywhere near the gap when you factor in the size of CT and the options that are available.

Richter Park is there. You also have the courses in and around Foxwoods. The CT private side is mostly congregated in the Fairfield County area -- of course, nearby is others like Yale. Some of them are very good indeed. However, you did mention Wintonbury and it too has added its presence to narrow the GAP I referenced.

[Andy Hughes]

VA and MD public golf are
more deeper than either NY or PA

Matt, what would you consider the best publics in the DC region?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

The simple point is this -- NY and PA developed world class stellar private golf -- the public side is frankly, with very few exceptions quite pedestrian and really incomplete. The questins is not "far too broad" or "outside the purview and expertise of this discussion forum." Maybe it might be for you -- but not for me and I say that not in arrogance but in having visited and played the many places that dot the landscape of The Empire and Keystone States and how they stack up against other states I have traveled in well over 35+ years.

Do you think the Hoosier State is some sort of nonentity in regards to publlic golf? Too much of the NY and PA golf scerne is based on the silly idea that if private golf is present there -- which it is in spades -- ergo the public side must be present as well. It's not.

I'll say this again -- yes -- a special trip to IN to play the top tier public courses alone would be well worth it. The Trophy Club is an exceptional layhout -- nothing in NY or PA public golf -- save for Bethpage Black -- has it beat in what it provides. IN has a slew of other top tier public courses which are in that same vein. I would be hard pressed to recommend such a listing from NY or PA.

Steve, I'll make it plain as day. Making a "special trip" to play the public courses I cited from Indiana would be well worth one's time and $$. Chris Clouser can weigh in if he sees this thread and I've been to IN plenty of times because of that very reason. It shocked me to see such quality public courses - worthy of national acclaim in the Hoosier State. Do you think I say that simply for hype reasons? You say IN public "may well be above average," -- Steve, there's no "may" in my mind -- the courses deserve more attention that they receive here or elsewhere.  



NY and PA have very few public courses of note -- the GAP between the private ones and what is there  on the public side is shockingly there -- yes, there are a few courses of note but when one weighs the overall populations and land mass of the two states in question -- it is frankly embarrassing.



Steve, I have played by the same rules. Justin made the claim -- which I have not seen outlined in any real sense -- that "great" private courses exist in DC. I don't see any of them as "great" -- my standard for "great" means places like Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Merion, Oakmont, etc, etc. The private side in DC is good but the public side in and around the MD and VA areas that bracket DC is also quite deep and not that far behind the elite private ones. However, the DC area for public golf is not at the same level as what I have played in Indiana.



Let me say this again -- the GAP in an Indiana (private to public) isn't as wide as what you find in PA and NY. I never said IN private golf had to be on the same page with NY and PA -- no state, minus the likes of CA private golf -- can compete with The Empire and Keystone in that specific category. IN does have quality private golf -- it also has a public side which is extremely competitive too. Therefore, whatever gap exists is a small one.



You ask what my point is -- try to realize this. Have you been to PA and NY to play the full range of public courses I have mentioned? If you have not done so then it's hard for me to give you credence on what personal observations you bring to the table when held against mine. No disrespect -- but I have not created this thread without having done the legwork to make such a case. If you or others see it differently -- so be it. But my conclusions are not being plucked from the sky. Thanks.

[JESII]

Matt,

Not sure if this argument has been made, but the fact is the private golf is widespread (within both Philly and NY) in both geography and price. The demand to build the level of course you're looking for just isn't there becasue in general the person interested in spending a couple thousand dollars on their golf in a year can find a private club capable of facilitating this.

I just don't see the demand.

[J Sadowsky]

"Let me point out, as Steve S did previously on this thread -- all of the public courses you cited from Upstate NY -- only Bethpage Black is able to crack GW's top 100 in either the modern or classic side of things. "

But how many public courses ANYWHERE make the Top 100 classic?  And while I bet there are more publics on the modern list, how many of the Top 100 modern courses are east of the Mississippi and north of the Mason Dixon?   

[J Sadowsky]

Justin made the claim -- which I have not seen outlined in any real sense -- that "great" private courses exist in DC. I don't see any of them as "great" -- my standard for "great" means places like Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Merion, Oakmont, etc, etc.

Okay, you're way overstating what I intended to claim.   I don't necessarily understand the need to apologize for using a different definition of "great" from you, but to the degree some confusion is what is causing you to repetitively call me out, for a claim I did not intend to make, I apologize.  

If you straight up asked me if any of the top 10 (or even 50, maybe even 100) courses in America are in the DC area, I'd say no.  But if "great" is limited to the top 10 courses in America, then it would simply be a stretch to call the public options even "decent."  If to be relevant to the conversation you need to be a Doak 9, fine, but what does it say that there are 2 public courses in the area that MIGHT get a 6 if you're feeling generous, and the rest are no better than a mid-5?  (Note: I am not an expert on the Doak scale, so I might have my labels off even here).

"The private side in DC is good but the public side in and around the MD and VA areas that bracket DC is also quite deep and not that far behind the elite private ones."

Here, I disagree, but I would love you to point out examples.  Particularly if you are interested in well-designed greens - the best greens I've seen of any public course in the DC area is Glenn Dale, which a great value for the DC area (at least when not overcrowded), but is not making anyone's top 100 classic or modern list either.  Lake Presidential and Laurel Hill are rather decent publics, though not in the top 20 courses overall in the DC area.  After that, you have Stonewall, which is decent but overrated based on the lake views, and then a bunch of courses that have no architectural interest whatsoever, and yet still get filled up at $100 a pop due simply to decent conditioning and a lack of alternative options.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

You ask the purpose of this thread. Help me out -- but I stated it several times. You must have missed it.

The GAP in NY and PA is shockingly wide -- no other state I have visited in the USA has such a GRAND CANYON GAP between the two groups. One would think that if you mention NY and PA for golf -- that all categories would fit nicely under one roof. That's not the case.

Unfortunately, people of certain jurisdictions take umbrage because they see such a situation as a reflection of them personally and the people who live there and that's not at all my intention.

Let me answer you ...

Given all the golf course construction the NY and PA public scene had plenty of situations where the architect "swung and missed" (using your phrasing). What a waste of $$, time and precious resources like land and H20.

Let me point out that quality public golf doesn't have to always be of the CCFAD model. It can include taxpayer-owned courses and some jurisdictions have done very well on this front.

Kevin, if a given area provides golf at a very low cost to the people who are there (juniors and others) and they enjoy it -- that's great and by all means they should play them to their heart's content. That's not my issue here. What I did say is that so much of the golf course development that took place used farmland and the net result was not anything memorable save for including holes and courses for people to play. If you see my comments as being elitist -- that's your spin and you are entitled to it. My point is that for someone to take the time and expense to travel to those areas would be wasting one's resources. You even said yourself if you need something more you will travel elsewhere.

Kevin, think of the opportunity that Turning Stone presented. It had the $$ to put together something very special -- and what resulted? The answer is obvious.

Please, enough of the hilly argument. Other states have hills -- some more than NY's Southern Tier and they have produced good qualty golf and some worthy of national acclaim. You use the qualified
"perhaps" something better could have been done. All the excuses -- however legitimate or forced into the discussion -- do not mitigate what actually resulted.

You say you're not making excuses but you are.

My comments are not personally meant to the people who inhabit those areas -- simply to the golf that is there. Kevin, I am far from "miserable" -- I am quite content to avoid places that don't add to my golfing portfolio of experiences and I think the public side is what I mentioned for both PA and NY. If you like what you play -- then knock yourself out and play them.  One other tidbit of background - I started playing golf on muni's and where grass grew by accident -- not by design. I am far from some sort of blueblood type.

In regards to cost -- the places I mentioned in most cases in IN and CO are within the price points you mentioned -- check out Murphy's Creek, CommonGround and Four Mile Ranch in CO. Happy to name similar places in IN too. They are quite affordable for the masses so the excuse that others charge more than Upstate NY courses is not applicable and is another smokescreen.

Value is a relative term. I started this thread not as a critique against places that provide low octane golf which is enjoyed at a cheap price. NY and PA have a rich PRIVATE golf history -- the public side and the GAP that comes from it is what I mentioned here and I stand by that original premise.

[Matt_Ward]

Justin:

Nothing was "overstated" -- you, not I, claimed DC private golf as "great." I don't see it and I am more than happy to debate that with you. Pardon me -- but there's no "confusion" from my side of understanding the term "great" -- I see "great" in a very narrow way -- places like WF, SH, Merion and Oakmont qualify. Congressional, Columbia, Woodmont -- do not.

Let's compare the DC area -- private to public. That would include areas that stretch into MD and VA and frankly many have come on board in the last 20-25 years to provide a reasonable and in some cases quite good alternative.

I'll say this again -- the GAP in DC isn't remotely close to what you find in NY and PA.

You ask for examples -- ever hear of the following:

Maryland

1.) Bulle Rock GC, Havre de Grace (m)

2.) Lodestone GC, McHenry (m)*

3.) Lake Presidential GC, Upper Marlboro (m)

4.) Links at Lighthouse Sound, Ocean City (m)

5.) Whiskey Creek, Ijamsville (m)

6.) Hyatt Regency Chesapeake Bay (River Marsh), Cambridge (m)

7.) Greystone, White Hall (m)

8.) Worthington Manor, Frederick (m)

9.) Musket Ridge, Myersville (m)

10.) Mount Pleasant GC, Baltimore (c)*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I've played 7 of the current ones listed from GW's state listings and while they would not merit more than a Doak 5 for the most part --the issue, which you and others miss, is that when held against THAT state's top privates is not as far apart as what you see in NY and PA. I would also include the likes of P B Dye as a place of note to play in MD -- too bad they toned down some of the greens there.

In VA I liked Blue Ridge Shadows in Front Royal -- I also found somewhat interesting places like The Gauntlet in Fredericksburg -- PB Dye isn't afraid to push the envelope. Raspberry Falls is devoid of anything memorable but the same can be said for plenty of the private ones too. The same can be said of the Norman Course at Landsdowne -- has its moments but nothing of stellar quality.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim S:

They have built such courses in other areas of the country -- for whatever reason -- when such courses were being bult in NY and PA -- on the public side -- there's been way too many misses. Check out what Pete Dye and son created at Pound Ridge -- could / should have been far better -- a real killer of a course for the average person and far from the standard that Pete Dye is associated with in my mind.

[Ronald Montesano]

Here's the next question for Matt:  aren't you asking too much of the NYS and PA courses? Are you comparing 5'9" courses with 7' courses (the pubs vs. privs in both states) whereas the privates in the other states you cite are nowhere near as good nor as populous as those in NYS and PA. I think I've finally found the flaw in your thread.

Compare pubs in NYS and PA to pubs in other states and you'll have a more worthwhile comparison. Drop the Long Island and Westy-Chesty privates in any other of the 49 states and you'll find an even more enlarged gap.

[J Sadowsky]

Sigh.  Matt, please let it go.  I'm sorry I used the word "great."  Can we drop that part of the argument, since nobody is actually arguing against you on that point? 

Of the Maryland courses you've listed, only Lake Presidential is within 30 minutes of the city limits.  Lighthouse Sound is an Eastern Shore course.  Whiskey Creek, Musket Ridge, and Worthington Manor (the first of which is a nice-if-nothing special course, the latter of which is rather mediocre if you ask me; haven't played Musket Ridge) is about an hour from DC and Baltimore and caters somewhat to both.  The remaining courses are Baltimore local courses, not DC ones, except McHenry, which is 3-4 hours from both and might as well be in West Virginia.

As far as Blue Ridge Shadows, I have yet to play that course but plan on doing so in April when I stay at a bed and breakfast nearby for my anniversary, as the course is an hour and a half away from DC and not a realistic option unless you live out in Western Northern Virginia anyways.  Fredericksburg is an hour and half south of the city, halfway between the city and Richmond (and Cannon Ridge would be the golf course of the most architectural merit).  These way outlaying courses do not really go against my original point, since they are all newer courses where land out is much cheaper than what you can find in normal-commuting-range from DC.

As others have said - historically DC golf's architecture (of whatever merit) has revolved around private golf - rather blue blood until RTJ (new money) and Woodmont came along (though RTJ does include GHWB and I believe Chief Justice Roberts as members along with, say, Michael Jordan).  The public courses were, as others have mentioned, low-fee affairs that were designed to give people a place to play golf, but since there was no prestige around it, the selection of land was chosen by availability more than potential, and not much was spent on the designs.  Recently, there has been the CCFAD movement here.  But still, with the prestige of private golf and the money the upper class is still willing to spend on it, any realistic attempt to build a *whatever you want to call the area of architectural design between Raspberry Falls and Winged Foot* has at least tried to do so as a private model, because there is simply more money in it.  The notable exceptions to this -- Lake Presidential and Laurel Hill -- have already been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, so we're all aware of their existence.

[Matthew Petersen]

That Digest list for Arizona is from 2007, for what that's worth. The 2009 list was even worse as public options go. With that said, I think the list ignores a few pretty good public courses, including We-Ko-Pa, Dove Mountain, and Vista Verde. It is probably true that 20 of the 25 best courses in the state are private, but the public ones are not really all that far behind in terms of actual quality. I don't Troon North, The Boulders, Talking Stick, or TPC are really as good as their reputations would indicate. I'm with Matt in that I'd take the public courses in Indiana or Colorado as a whole over either one.

Indiana's best private clubs might not stack up with NY or PA, but don't discount Wolf Run and Victoria National (and Crooked Stick). For the life of me I don't understand why Wolf Run isn't in the top fifty nationally and Victoria National is only slightly behind. Crooked Stick is a solid top 100 course too. Wolf Run and Victoria National are both higher on my list than anything in Arizona, for example.

Andy you are right about the date of the list, but also that despite the opening of some really quality public tracks (WeKoPa Saguaro and Vista Verde in particular) they aren't moving the needle in any rankings against the state's private courses.

That said, I didn't bring up AZ with the intent to argue that the disparity between public and private is as great here as it is in NY or Penn--I was simply rebutting the notion that this was due to NY and Penn (and Chicago) being the home of a lot of old classic courses. Disparity exists even in places where all the top courses are eligible only for the "modern" lists.

I think I lean toward RTO'HM's idea that maybe the disparity here is actually the result of the extremely high quality of the private courses in the NY/PA area. There are plenty of areas where public courses are lackluster. But few areas with such a concentration of great private courses as New York has. in the end, if you're comparing Winged Foot, NGLA, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Merion, Pine Valley, et al ... well there aren't many public courses anywhere that are going to stack up favorably.

[Matt_Ward]

Matthew P:

AZ private side golf is quite good but the public side deserves a better shake than many of the national state ratings would imply.

I think no less than 5-7 of the listed courses that Andy mentioned are a tad overrated and some of the publics would then jump in for consideration. That's my take.

I do appreciate your other comments on this topic.



Justin:

I'm sorry you used it too -- but I have been held to such standards by many people here.

Not meant to pick on you -- but when you said DC has "great" private courses I needed to know your standards for using such a word.

That's all.

Ron:

What flaw?

NY produced a Bethpage Black -- right ? PA produced a Cobbs Creek -- right?

Why could not more of these types of courses -- not the singular focus on length and demand -- but overall quality have been produced?

I mean there have been plenty of swings and misses (to use Kevin's apt line) since then.

NY and PA has never really had a deep roster of really solid public courses to play - at a Doak 5 or better level. Much of it has been merely functional -- nothing wrong with that for those who could care less about architectural quality.

Ron, you are so funny - you want me to drop the LI and Westchester side of things because you know my original premise is right on target -- shall I eliminate anything else in order to please you.

One final thing -- you said, "whereas the privates in the other states you cite are nowhere near as good nor populous as those in NYS and PA." I never said the private in other states were remotely near the level of NY and PA -- they are among the 3 best in the nation in my mind -- CA being among that level. Hope this sorts out your confusion.

[Kevin Lynch]

Value is a relative term. I started this thread not as a critique against places that provide low octane golf which is enjoyed at a cheap price. NY and PA have a rich PRIVATE golf history -- the public side and the GAP that comes from it is what I mentioned here and I stand by that original premise.

Matt,

You didn't start this as a critique against places that have low octane golf?

Read all the paragraphs before that statement - that's what your entire post to me is.  I'm not taking offense – I was just trying to understand what it was you wanted to “discuss” (as I thought that’s what this board was for).

The essence of your first post was “Wow, NY & Penn Public Golf is really lacking.”  Sounds like a critique, but some of us assumed that you may be interested in having a discussion in why things may have evolved that way.

We told you it may be because of demographics, topography, bad efforts by archies, etc.

You essentially responded “that’s no excuse, they did better in Indiana / Colorado etc.!!”

However, you don’t offer any opinion as to WHY there may be a gap.  Rather, you just keep stating more emphatically that the gap exists (e.g. now, it’s a “GRAND CANYON GAP”).  So, unless you offer any suggestions as to WHY there is such a gap, I’m assuming that all you’re doing if offering a critique of “low octane golf” (in your opinion).

If that’s your intent, that’s fine, but then what do you want from people in a discussion forum?

Are you looking for us to simply echo your thoughts and say “yeah, the Public Golf sure is lame!”

Do you want us to join you in hand-wringing and mourn for the missed opportunity at Turning Stone?  Is there something we as New York Golfers should have done differently?  Should I protest / boycott an opportunity to play there because it’s “not as good as it could have been” or can I accept that it’s not a complete “dog track” and take it in if I’m offered a proper value price.  I’m not going to waste a whole bunch of time obsessing about it.

Or do you want us to try and convice you that your critique is incorrect?  That’s rhetorical, because we know that’s an absolute no-win with you.

If anyone disagrees with your perception, all you ever do is pull out your “I’ve put in the legwork and seen more, so your opinion is summarily dismissed.”   If that’s not how you intend to come off, you may want to reconsider your approach, because I know that’s how a number of people perceive it.  When I was going back-and-forth with Brad Klein on Ballyhack, why do you suppose he wrote “I don’t like to go all Matt Ward on people” when they disagree with him?

You obviously have plenty of experience that could be helpful in a forum like this.  I’d be very interested in hearing WHY you think New York State Publics didn’t keep pace (i.e. what factors contributed to the situation, not just a critique of the situation).

But if you just want a forum to say “I've seen so much of the country - it’s nothing special,” have at it.  I’m still going to have a blast playing fun courses like Byrncliff, Holiday Valley & Ravenwood, and enjoy them despite their limitations.  I’ve played them enough to know there’s more there than “farmland” or “just holes in the ground.”

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

More than happy to discuss -- and to hear others comments -- but just as you reserve the right to disgree and have -- so do I.

I expressed my frustration and even anger that with all the public courses built in NY and PA (I believe NY has the 3rd most courses in the nation) -- so few (minus the private side) have turned out to be anything worthy of note. No doubt you consider a course of note if it provides recreation at a cheap price to those in that area. That was not my point -- that was yours. And I have said -- several times -- that's fine with me if it pleases people for such things.

More than happy to discuss things -- I am also obligated to point out my disagreements -- just as you are - in any such discussion. Keep in mind, my perspective covers more than just the Upstate area of NY which seems to be your primary point of contention.

What I find amazing is when you have states such as NY and PA which have such a strong private club side -- so very little transformed itself to the public side of the equation. I am amazed such heavyweights as Bethpage Black / Red and even Cobbs Creek were not replicated in some form or fashion. Not for the difficulty per se, but for the richness in the details that those respective courses bring to the table. In those two instances I mentioned -- there was a desire to have quality public golf be able to replicate so many of the design ingredient found at private courses. Did the masses simply want more fast food public offerings and did those who commissioned such work not really understand what could have been? I would have thought such architects would have raised the bar and provided as much. Clearly, something happened and as a result what came forward was just a hodge-podge of holes that fill out the dance card but with nothing of serious consequence.

How do architects who were to design such public courses from the 1950's onward NOT SEE what has been literally down the street with such private layouts?

Kevin, by all means knock yourself out and enjoy what you wish to play. I find such golf to be merely a mechanism to pass time. If it works for you and others -- more power to you. You won't have me clogging the fairways in front of you.

I don't need or expect people to echo what I say -- but I find it amusing people will not see the details I have provided.

You ask what could have been done? I think NY and PA golfers could have demanded more -- in terms of quality. I see what the CGA did in getting a former course Mira Vista and then making it into CommonGround in the greater Denver area. How brilliant was that? Look what happened with Rustic Canyon in SoCal of all places! Why is such a pathetic area like the Poconos and Catskills such an eyesore for anything resembling quality golf -- no wonder those places have little going on from the tourist side of things.

If a truly well thought action plan were put into place -- those two areas could have maintained themselves as being places of note -- instead of the ghost towns they are today.

Kevin, you are fast to tell me about your legwork and the courses you enjoy. Well, guess what amigo, my legwork does count for something because it's given me the opportunity to see beyond the trees and see the overall forest. You made it a point to stand up and profess what was missing from the Ballyhack assessment -- I imagine your legwork counted for something to you at least. Did it not ? Well, mine does the same for me.

You can disagree -- and frankly Brad Klein should be the last to talk -- I don't think groupthink works all that well with his ratings -- although for some people it amazes me how they are quick to call the kettle black.

NY and PA are clear benchmarks when private golf is talked about. Given the level of golf that was there a major disconnect happened on the public side that truly astounds me because so much $$, land and valuable resources that were consumed produced so much mediocrity. A pity indeed.