[Peter Pallotta]

Just a tad outside a reasonable 'drive there and back in a day' distance for me...but so what? Please let me know if you guys hook up to play Orchard Creek -- if I can swing a few things I would love to join you.  Looked into it the first time I read of Paul's involvement --and like Jim just said, it is a model for what affordable golf can be. Plus, I have to admit: while of course seaside and sand hills and heathlands are wonderful, the only kind of course I know "in my bones" and therefore love is the southern ontario-upstate new york brand of rolling and treed parkland. A charming and homely golf that is.

Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

home·ly
adj.  
1. Not attractive or good-looking.
2. Lacking elegance or refinement
3. Being something familiar with which one is at home

Just in case.  

[Matt_Ward]

What's interesting is that if one takes Bethpage Black, Montauk and Red at Bethpage, and Tallgrass out of the picture the relative strength of the northern area of NY versus the rest is relatively equal to one another.

I would urge people to keep Tallgrass and Links at Unionvale on their radar screen -- both have plenty to offer and are considerably underappreciated by many of the pubs -- but not the local golfers who play them

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,

Where would Eisenhower Red rate on your list?  That's another L.I. muni.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Eisenhower is OK a bit more than average in what it provides -- but frankly when you play Tallgrass or Bethpage Red or even what TF did on such a tight piece of property such as Oyster Bay you can see other alternates worth playing.

The sad reality Ron is that other states have spent a good deal of time amassing their public portfolios -- NY and PA did create public play options -- but frankly too many turned out to be of the average sorts.

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,

Follow this turn in the road. Assess your publics in other states and the era in which they were built, versus the ones built in NYS and PA. Do you feel that the era in which NYS and PA built their publics had anything to do with your disdain for them. It follows, then, that your enthusiasm for courses built in the states you mention (CO and IN) might have something to do with the era in which they were designed, too...

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Disdain ?

Not at all.

I think it's just a situation where the collective efforts in NY and PA were one big swing and more often than not -- they missed the big time plenty of times. How can one account for the collective slop that calls itself public golf in the Poconos and Catskills. The money was there -- the sites were better than average in many cases -- the net result -- piss poor crap that simply failed to deliver.

Think of the time frame for PA and NY public golf. Even if public golf never got going prior to WWII in most locations -- after WWII there were numerous efforts -- even in the last 25 or so years and what has been produced?

Let me say this -- the public course improvements in architecture benefited from such failures. IN and CO came onto the golf scene somewhat later than Pennsy and NY. Those two states didn't have the deep reservoir of private golf -- frankly, NY and PA had the top tier people only at private places because of the disdain in having to associate themselves with the masses.

But it boggle my mind that when NY and PA public golf was brought forward few people ever opened their minds and eyes to the fact that the private courses right down the street were the models to follow in order to really excite the masses about quality golf design. Sad to say Ron -- so much $ and land were wasted for nothing more than pedestrian 18-holes cut into the ground.

[Ronald Montesano]

Next question:  Disparity between public course fees and private club membership in NYS/PA and in IN/CO...does it favor the latter pair and not the former?

Third question:  Comparative elitism between the states...the larger urban centers of NYS/PA share an elitism that in previous decades would have prevented certain sectors from considering public course patronage...does that same elitism exist in IN/CO?

[paul cowley]

Peter, JNC and David....I think that we would make a fine foursome, but let me try to hardline my schedule and check and see if they are even open yet! Going to Panama tmrw (work) and back Monday and I'll check when I return.

Peter...I think you will have to stay and play and I can help there.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Fees in CO and IN for public play are even lower in certain instances than in NY - especially as you head closer to the NYC metro area. No doubt fees for upstate NY courses and the ones in rural PA will need to be lower and likely on par with the other states.

In terms of private costs -- the NY and PA areas, especially those closest to NYC and Phillie are certainly higher.

I don't know about your premise about elitism keeping people from playing public golf in earlier times in NY and PA. Frankly, why would someone want to play dog tracks when you're playing something of quality.

I will say this -- private membership in the Northeast often times can require a check of the blood lines. That issue is far less so in places like CO and IN from my experiences. Hope the info helps.

[Ronald Montesano]

Let's dig deeper...if you're of the philanthropic ilk, you say, "I'm playing something of quality here at Wes-shin-fish National...I think that my public-playing brethren should have something of similar quality, so I'll hire old Traviillingross and build it."  Why didn't that happen downstate?

[David Harshbarger]

Peter, JNC and David....I think that we would make a fine foursome, but let me try to hardline my schedule and check and see if they are even open yet! Going to Panama tmrw (work) and back Monday and I'll check when I return.

Peter...I think you will have to stay and play and I can help there.

A fine foursome, indeed.  Just let me know when and I'll clear my schedule of all the less pressing engagements!

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

People did build public courses -- they simply dumbed-down the golf to what one sees today.

Truly hard for you and likely others to believe -- I can't either -- that a simple looking over the hedges would have meant a greater appreciation of what the private folks had.

One other thing to keep in focus -- plenty of the public courses were also stripped down over the years from what they did have. Places like LaTourette and Split Rock, to name just two NYC courses, had previous features which were either toned down or outright eliminated.

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