[Don_Mahaffey]

As an AZ alum who competed for the Wildcats, but who has lived in TX for some time now, I looked forward to this game with great anticipation. I was rooting for the wildcats and was happy to see the horns start to do their same old weak offensive game. Rick Barnes is lucky he coaches at a football school as I believe this is the 9th time in the last 13 years his team has lost to a lower seed in the big dance. The horns can play D, but on O they look lost half the time. They are very lucky they have such a talented guard who basically carried them in this game.

I thought AZ's DW was fouled on the play that preceded the 5 second call. But all of that is lost on the horn fans who have been crying on sports radio here all day long.

Barnes is a good recruiter and competes in a so so B-ball conference. The Big 12 has some marquee teams, but they also have plenty of weak sisters good for padding records. After this year Barnes will have had 10 NBA players in the last 6 years. Only a handful of teams can say that.
They say the calls even out over time, but apparently TX always gets the short end.  

ps....to the original question or theme before Mrs. Moran told her story. I haven't played one of Kelly's courses, but I hope too some time soon. We came very close to working together and I can say I enjoyed my time with Kelly and was very much looking forward to working with him. Maybe someday, I hope.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

Right after he extends his arm for the fifth time. The Texas player called for it RIGHT after the 4th.

4.67 sec was the time, I'm told.  Is that still a bad call?  Would 4.97 sec also be incorrect?

[Tim Nugent]

Don, ever notice how the losing team always gets the "bad calls"? (Go Devils!!!) 

[Sean Leary]

Joe,

Right after he extends his arm for the fifth time. The Texas player called for it RIGHT after the 4th.

4.67 sec was the time, I'm told.  Is that still a bad call?  Would 4.97 sec also be incorrect?

The stop watched time is irrelevant, could have been 3 seconds of could have been 10, it doesn't matter. I am going by the refs count, which you can see with his arm motion (not sure if he calls it out verbally or not), and is what the player goes by as well. As soon as he did the 4th count, the kid called time out. On the telecast, the mentioned something about not being able to call time out after the count of 4, but I read today that that rule was changed a while ago.

I was rooting for Arizona as a Pac 10 supporter but I thought it was a poor call (as was the Pitt foul after the free throw on that game, IMO but that's another story).

[Bill_McBride]

It's nice to see that Kelly's wife appreciates him and seems fond of his work -- but she's a tad naïve to share the news of his manslaughter charge on a public site.

Did you really bite on that one?!

[Mark McKeever]

Having played Hawke Pointe and Morgan Hill (I still need to get out and see Lederach) I was impressed with both courses.  They are both visually interesting and demand strategy despite being on very very different pieces of land.  I assume that Morgan Hill doesnt get as much exposure because of how far it is from Philadelphia, but as an Allentown guy, its very convenient.  Hawk Pointe probably isnt on a lot of radars because it's private and its location just east of Allentown in New Jersey.

Mark

[Tom ORourke]

One of the threads has the line - Does anyone know much about the Moorestown Field Club? I am a member and have been for 20 years and am currently the golf chairman. The course was 9 short and straight holes. It is still short but not as straight. What Kelly did was to shape movement within the existing holes by bending fairways, adding strategic bunkers, expanding the world's smallest greens a bit, and cutting down some nasty rough around some of the greens to give chipping options. Our bunkers were so old that they were taking on that V look where you were either on the upslope or downslope. With the greens being so small there were holes where being in the sand on the downslope meant you could not stop the ball on the green unless you hit the pin. The fifth hole is a short par 5 but we play it from a forward tee on the back 9 and it becomes a 410 yard par 4. The green was small with bunkers at 5 and 7 o'clock. Kelly built a new green and it is very subtle. There is a hump in the front and one in the back that are killers. He circled the green from 12 o'clock to 5 o'clock with a pond. It is now a green where going for it in two makes you think. Overall he has done a great job of making the course a lot better, and stronger, without adding more than a few yards here and there. We have only 50 acres to work with so there is not much room for expanding holes. He has also built a new green so now our 18th hole is our first real  dogleg, and plays around 400 yards where it used to be 335 dead straight. Any former members who come back rave about the changes. And we have made the changes one hole at a time for 9 years. That sounds strange, but we have been in business since 1892 and have never taken out a loan. Every dollar for the changes has come from assessments of $300 per year per member so we have not taken on any debt while he did this. It could not have been easy doing it this way but he did a great job. We had our pro - member last fall and John Appelget won. John has won the Philly Open at Pine Valley. He was the only pro under par at the Field Club that day. John's comment was that we really do not have a 9 hole course, we have a 14 hole course as some of the holes change enough to be considered different. That is about right. And, you never have to take a cart and we have no tee times. Old style.

[John Shimony]

Mr. O'Rourke,

Are the squared off bunkers and greens I'm seeing on Google maps and Joe's pictures the product of your work with Mr. Moran?  The bunkers and fairway lines really seem to have a definite style that I find appealing.  From google maps one can get a sense of the room available for moving teeing locations around to change up the angles.  Very neat.  Well done.  

[George Pazin]

I was rooting for Arizona as a Pac 10 supporter but I thought it was a poor call (as was the Pitt foul after the free throw on that game, IMO but that's another story).

It's funny you mention Pitt. I've been a die hard Pitt hoops fan for about 30 years and I thought that call had to be made, it was way too blatant to let it go. I thought the same of Mack's foul as well. Having said that, I thought the officiating in general in that game was horrendous. Way too many flops were rewarded.

The 5 count was a makeup call, whether the official wants to admit it or not (maybe even to himself). They rarely let a guy get away with holding his hands straight up - they sure didn't with Pitt - and the Texas player followed through into the Az guy on the previous play. That was the difference with the last drive by the Tex guard - I didn't see anyone go into him, just defend hard vertically.

-----

Thanks for all the links, Joe, I should have known you'd have a bunch.

[John Shimony]

Mark,
I find, more so than at other courses, that getting a few rounds under your belt on Lederach's greens makes the round more satisfying.  But still, the first time and everytime you walk up to the first green and more than a few others, a smile appears on your face realizing the fun putt you're going to have to hit to get the ball close to the hole.  The greens are definitely the place on the course that will add the strokes to your round.  I have not played any of KBM's other courses. 

[Mark McKeever]

Sounds like another person telling me I need to check out Lederach!

Mark

[Joe Bausch]

You sort of figure out fast at Lederach that this isn't your average public golf course!  Here are bigger views of the first two greens, and these pics really don't do them justice.

#1.

[Joe Bausch]

#2.

[Terry Lavin]

That 5 second call was bs. Clearly he had just extended his arm for the 4th time. Don't understand refs making themselves too much a part of the results of games...

The explanation I heard was that you can't call for time after four seconds.

[Joe Bausch]

And check out the first green on the par 5 opener at Morgan Hill:

[Michael Blake]

But Lederach creates an unconventional look and playability that brings one back for more. If I could convince my conventional golfing buddies to go back there I would gladly return. That's the rub!

That's the dilema, isn't it?
GCA-types like the course and its bold features, but the joe six-packs...not so much.

Played Morgan Hill once, Hawk Pointe less than five, and Lederach at least 30 times (play with a good friend who lives in that development and it's also in the course rotation of my golf league.)

[Sean Leary]

That 5 second call was bs. Clearly he had just extended his arm for the 4th time. Don't understand refs making themselves too much a part of the results of games...

The explanation I heard was that you can't call for time after four seconds.

Terry,

That was originally what was said. But apparently that rule was changed a number of years ago.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

It takes a few plays to "learn" Lederach. Sometimes it's better to be on the short side of the green in the rough rather than have a 60' putt over humps and bumps.

I've played there a lot since it opened. Some of my friends like it, some won't return. My barber 4 putted the first green and said he wouldn't return.

[Matt_Ward]

I'd like to know if Lederach will EVER open up the real back tee for the 1st hole there ?

Joe, thanks for posting the pic on the 1st at Morgan Hill -- very good risk and reward type hole. Can be reached in most occasions but if you miss too far left leaving with a par is no small matter.

[Bob Harris]

I'd like to know if Lederach will EVER open up the real back tee for the 1st hole there ?

Matt,

Highly unlikely.  There are now houses to the left of the fairway about 200 yards from where the back tee would have been built.
With the hole shortened to 350 yards, the houses are now out of range.

When we last rated the course, we did not rate the hole from that distance.

Bob

[Matt_Ward]

Bob:

Many thanks !

I think the overall hole suffers because of that.

KBM originally intended for the back tee to be used and not having it robs the overall course of
what it would have added when playing.

A pity.

Be curious to know how Kelly feels about that.

[Michael Blake]

Matt,

You'd like the 'Black & Blue' tournament they have there every year.
They place the tees as far back as possible.  Often in places beyond the 'back tee' where there is no tee.

I don't play in it but a couple of my friends do.  The tee on #3 is so far back that nobody can reach the fairway.  They have to play down the #2 fairway.

Maybe next year they'll pay you an appearance fee and you come land in a helicopter on the practice green.
I'll get the date if you'd like.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Thanks -- sounds like fun !!!

Really -- all I wanted to ever see was the original intent of the course followed. The 1st would have been a really solid opener for those who wanted to play from the tips.

Sorry to see it not there.

[Matt_Ward]

Kelly:

Many thanks.

Frankly less than 5% were likely to play the back tee but I do believe it would have added a bit more versatility in the mix. Was a different bunker pattern for the fairway ever contemplated. Sort of what Doak did with the 3rd at Pac Dunes -- placing two (2) bunkers in the centerline area -- spaced out about 40-50 yards apart.

At 450 the hole becomes much more challenging for the approach shot one has to play.

Last item - I don't see the homes coming into play given the level of player who should be on such tees to start with.

[Tim Martin]

One of the threads has the line - Does anyone know much about the Moorestown Field Club? I am a member and have been for 20 years and am currently the golf chairman. The course was 9 short and straight holes. It is still short but not as straight. What Kelly did was to shape movement within the existing holes by bending fairways, adding strategic bunkers, expanding the world's smallest greens a bit, and cutting down some nasty rough around some of the greens to give chipping options. Our bunkers were so old that they were taking on that V look where you were either on the upslope or downslope. With the greens being so small there were holes where being in the sand on the downslope meant you could not stop the ball on the green unless you hit the pin. The fifth hole is a short par 5 but we play it from a forward tee on the back 9 and it becomes a 410 yard par 4. The green was small with bunkers at 5 and 7 o'clock. Kelly built a new green and it is very subtle. There is a hump in the front and one in the back that are killers. He circled the green from 12 o'clock to 5 o'clock with a pond. It is now a green where going for it in two makes you think. Overall he has done a great job of making the course a lot better, and stronger, without adding more than a few yards here and there. We have only 50 acres to work with so there is not much room for expanding holes. He has also built a new green so now our 18th hole is our first real  dogleg, and plays around 400 yards where it used to be 335 dead straight. Any former members who come back rave about the changes. And we have made the changes one hole at a time for 9 years. That sounds strange, but we have been in business since 1892 and have never taken out a loan. Every dollar for the changes has come from assessments of $300 per year per member so we have not taken on any debt while he did this. It could not have been easy doing it this way but he did a great job. We had our pro - member last fall and John Appelget won. John has won the Philly Open at Pine Valley. He was the only pro under par at the Field Club that day. John's comment was that we really do not have a 9 hole course, we have a 14 hole course as some of the holes change enough to be considered different. That is about right. And, you never have to take a cart and we have no tee times. Old style.

Tom-Everything you describe about the club sounds fantastic not the least of which are Kelly`s renovations. Sounds like my kind of place. Old style is the way to go and no debt ain`t bad either.

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