David,
Consider what you just wrote when speaking of “inapt” although I would have chosen the word “inept” to better describe your argument.
You stated “Your comparison of their accomplishments of in architecture is inapt. You always seem to forget that CBM was an Amateur architect who never accepted a penny for his work, and was thus involved in comparatively few courses. But his few golf courses revolutionized golf course design in America. Surely you must realize that Tillie and about everyone else benefited immeasurably from his efforts.”
If we are talking about quality of work as well as the quality of that work, what possible difference does it make as to whether he was an “amateur” or a “professional” architect? We’re discussing quality not amount of money made. Sorry to disappoint you, but Tilly’s courses ALSO had a profound impact and definitely revolutionized golf course design in America. The same holds true for how both other architects and players benefited from his designs.
“Likewise, you further load the deck with your emphasis on "scope" and "longevity." What sort of longevity do you expect out of a old man who never took a penny to design courses? How many courses do you expect him to have created? CBM was an old man in comparison and he stopped designing much earlier. Do you really expect him to have designed courses in the early 1890s that could host a US Open today? Is that a realistic expectation?”
David, his having been an “amateur” had NOTHING to do with how many courses he designed. He designed the ones that he wanted to. The fact is that he could have gotten many, many more commissions but chose not to take them. That also means nothing in this comparison. That he chose to do less work than Tilly during the same years that Tilly was working was his decision and shouldn’t be held against Tilly in this comparison. I agree with you. Any courses that he might have designed in the 1890s certainly could not have hosted the U.S. Open today. Then again, courses that he designed AFTER 1911 could have yet how many majors have been held on his courses from and DURING that time period? How many were held on Tillinghast courses during that same time frame? The comparison is ludicrous in Tilly’s favor. That certainly speaks to the QUALITY of Tilly’s designs.
“Your claim that they were "contemporaries" takes more than a little fudging on your part. CBM designed his first course in America the better part of two decades before Tillie designed his first course. Despite Tillie's self-promotion of Shawnee a few years later, I don't think you'd find too many, other than perhaps Tillie, who would have considered AWT a contemporary of CBM when CBM came up for the concept for NGLA, or when CBM was designing and building it in was designing and building it NGLA in 1906-1909.”
Once again David you completely ignore the facts. CBM and Tilly were contemporaries and the fact is that the VAST majority of courses that CBM worked on were AFTER 1911 when Tilly opened Shawnee. Tilly wrote of “Charlie” as a friend, and equal and… get ready for it… a contemporary. Let’s see, CBM died in 1939 and Tilly in 1942. Sorry, but by your same logic you would not consider Tom Doak with 25+ years designing golf courses, a contemporary of Rees Jones. Go ahead, explain how they aren’t. You can’t because they are and so CBM & Tilly were contemporaneous as designers for the MAJORITY of their careers.
“You claim that CBM's legacy is "singular to architecture." Have you ever read anything about golf in America pre -1900? Have you ever heard of the USGA or ever wondered how it got its start? Check it out, you might find that CBM had a bit to with that. Doesn't this count for anything? Have you ever heard of the rules of golf? CBM wrote them. At the very least, CBM was one of the most significant of the founders of golf in America, and he had a tremendous impact on golf in the two most important early centers here, Chicago and New York. Doesn't that count for anything?”
I didn’t mean to downplay his role in the founding of the USGA and the other things within that organization that you cite, rather I was more referring to Tilly’s role as one of the founders of the PGA of America as well as how important his PGA Course Consultation Tour from 1935-37 was in saving the organization without which we would not have the PGA Tour as it is today. In addition, Tilly also worked with the USGA Green Section from its founding and the years following.
“There is more, but really, why bother?” I know you believe that, but there really isn’t. By the way, could you answer this for me? If I am “inapt” in my comparison of their architectural careers, why don’t you use that same phrase with Tom Macwood? After all, he AGREED WITH ME in post #34 when he stated, “If you just look on their individual course resume you might have a point, but CBM's individual accomplishments and overall impact on the game far outweigh Tilly's.”
Imagine that, Tom Macwood agreeing with me! Stating that my statement about Tilly’s resume as a designer surpassed that of CBM! Oh how “INAPT” he must be!
Of course he did provide a list of reasons why he still believes CBM ‘s “individual accomplishments and overall impact on the game FAR OUTWEIGH Tilly’s.” That claim is beyond absurd as well. So let’s deal with it in this one rather long post for this is silly to argue over.
Tom wrote, and I admit that I’ve changed the ORDER of his list so that I can deal with several at a time:
“Founder of Belmont CC, one of the first golf clubs in America. Laid out the first 18-hole course in America. Laid out the first great golf course in America – NGLA. Laid out Lido, which was considered along with PV and NGLA, one of the three great modern designs. Designer of another dozen + top flight early courses.”
These were covered quite well above in my response to David. In addition, there are more than 55 Tillinghast courses that have hosted either major or national championships. NOT 55 majors or national championships, but 55+ DIFFERENT COURSES. (I can’t give the exact number because I am on my laptop and not at my desk on my main computer).
“Won the first US Amateur (runner up two previous unofficial Ams). Competed in the British Am.” Winning the first US Amateur and being runner-up in two others was a big accomplishment. By the way, how many players competed in it and how great was the quality of the field of players? I am NOT degrading his accomplishment by those questions, but rather simply placing the accomplishments listed in a proper historical perspective. For example, one might argue that Tilly’s finish as 2nd low amateur in the 1910 US Open was a bigger accomplishment than either of CBM’s “runner-up in two unofficial amateurs.” Tilly was setting course records as far back as 1898 and winning amateur tournaments into the early teens. Overall the differences in their realistic playing accomplishments weren’t very much. By the way, Tilly was actually scheduled to play in the 1913 British Amateur but decided not to go for unknown reasons.
“One of the founders of the USGA. On the first R&A Rules of Golf Committee (18 years on that committee)” Again, Tilly was one of the founders of the USGA, his role in the 1935-37 PGA Course Consultation Tour and how it both kept the PGA from going bankrupt and also provided an amazing amount of work for numerous architects, course workers and golf professionals at a time when they were all begging for work. On top of that he worked with the USGA Greens Committee from the founding of that and throughout the 1920s.
“Contributed numerous articles on the game/architecture including his famous article on the ideal golf course.” Sorry Tom, but this is simply plain insulting that you would consider CBM’s writings to even begins to approach Tilly’s. If one accepts that CBM wrote “numerous articles” as you put it, then in that same comparative vein Tilly wrote entire ENCYCLOPEDIAS on every possible aspect of design, golf clubs, fiction, poetry, advice, answering questions as well as being an EDITOR of numerous newspapers and magazines.
“Darwin called him the first great golf architect in America. Often referred to as the Father of American Golf.” That certainly was nice of Darwin to call him that. Then again, who was the editor of Golf Illustrated who declared Tillinghast to be “The Dean of American-Born Architects?”
“Mentor of Raynor & Banks” That he was. Tilly mentored a number of well-known architects from that time period as well, among them Lees and Low.
“Influenced numerous other architects including Tilly, who incorporated CBM prototypes in his early designs.” You are flat out WRONG! Tilly wrote that he completely disagreed with CBM’s design philosophies and that the two often engaged in friendly arguments about it throughout their lifelong friendship. You are flat out wrong on this.
“Author of Scotland's Gift.” A great book. But then again both “Cobble Valley Stories” and “The Mutt” were and still are considering great works of golf writing. I’ll take two books over one…
Now both Tom and David will not be swayed by anything I wrote and that is fine. I respect their belief’s in how high a pedestal they want to place CBM. I only commented on this thread in the beginning because there are a lot of passionate lovers of golf course architecture who can’t understand why golf course architects are continuously overlooked in the recognition of those whose greatness to the game deserve an immortalization of this sort. I once again urge all to DO SOMETHING positive about trying to correct this oversight for all those who deserve to be memorialized.