[Tim Pitner]

Theoretically it shouldn't be that tough for someone to step in and undercut the Bandon resort.

I'd be surprised if it's possible, given the need to get the necessary permits. That's why I don't see a future Myrtle.

I agree.  I think we sometimes underestimate the number of players who would be enticed by carts, more luxurious accommodations and amenities and perhaps even alternative activities, especially for their wives.  If these players could be siphoned from Bandon, great.  They're not present in huge numbers at Bandon, but they're there. 

The weather and particularly the wind are obtacles for a less golf-centric resort.  Even among my group, I get some griping from time to time about going to Bandon because of the ever-present wind.

The Oregon coast is very special and I certainly hope that any development is approached with care. 

[Mike Erdmann]

I'd heard a year ago that Perry Dye was no longer the architect at the Crook Point property and that the owners were talking to other architects. Who knows what'll happen, but Herb Kohler is a sharp businessman and knows a hell of a lot more than any of us whether such a project is feasible.

[Phil McDade]

As someone who has followed Kohler's projects in Wisconsin, I'll just add this...

Lots of folks (the vast majority, I'd argue, at least here in Wisconsin) doubted Kohler could make a go of it in putting a high-end golf course(s) just outside Sheboygan, of all places. He got a lot of things right, including timing, but my sense is that Kohler's a pretty savvy guy and won't go into an Oregon sea-side resort without a pretty good sense that he can make a go of it.

That's not to say it's guaranteed to succeed, if it gets off the ground. But he's surely spent a lot of time examining the Bandon model -- and others as well -- in determining whether he can make this succeed.

I'd be surprised if Dye wasn't involved; I'm not sure Kohler trusts too many other architects, and I'm not sure other architects would be able to work as well with Kohler.

[Pete_Pittock]

I thought the area up on Three Capes Drive (way up North) would be a great site for a golf course on the Oregon coast.  No - it's not sand-based, a key to Bandon's greatness, but it is extremely scenic and a lot closer to Portland.

kiboshed with environmental concerns

[PThomas]

As someone who has followed Kohler's projects in Wisconsin, I'll just add this...

Lots of folks (the vast majority, I'd argue, at least here in Wisconsin) doubted Kohler could make a go of it in putting a high-end golf course(s) just outside Sheboygan, of all places. He got a lot of things right, including timing, but my sense is that Kohler's a pretty savvy guy and won't go into an Oregon sea-side resort without a pretty good sense that he can make a go of it.

That's not to say it's guaranteed to succeed, if it gets off the ground. But he's surely spent a lot of time examining the Bandon model -- and others as well -- in determining whether he can make this succeed.

I'd be surprised if Dye wasn't involved; I'm not sure Kohler trusts too many other architects, and I'm not sure other architects would be able to work as well with Kohler.

similarly Phil, I am amazed that Kohler's American Club hotel succeeded...the hotel was opened BEFORE the first golf course was....now how Herb knew that people would want to go to a fancy hotel kind of out in the middle of nowhere with not much around to do...well, that was genius, in retrospect...but to someone like me (a non genius here..and most often) that seems like a crazy idea

re Bandon, if I was Mike Keiser -he probably just felt a sharp pain when i typed that - if I was building my first course in the middle of nowhere in Oregon, I would have thought that using a big name architect would have been the ONLY sensible way to get enough publicity...and i'm not even talking about Jack or Arnie or Fazio, but at least a name as big as Crenshaw...talking a gamble on a foreign guy named Kidd WHO WAS ALSO DESIGNING HIS FIRST COURSE....well, if you had presented me with that option i would have kicked you out of my office

sometimes i think there's a fine line between genius and madness.....this all shows how smart i am...sigh....

[Mark Johnson]

I earned my degree in the liberal arts, so please excuse my fading knowledge of ECON 101.  But wouldn't more competition effectively serve to drive down greens fees at both resorts?  and, isn't that a good thing for us, the consumer?  If that is indeed how the ol' supply and demand thing works, then i say welcome.

From an Econ major, the answer is it depends.  I could lower prices based on your theory.  It could also raise prices, by unceasing demand through the lower per round travel cost.  This is the same reason car dealers are all next to each other.

All that said, I think anyone who wants to build a build a new golf course in this economy is a good thing for the sport, so I hope he succeeds.  

[Jud_T]

Phil,

I hear Mike Keiser is opening a walking only resort in Sheboygan to grab the overflow from Kohler.  Demand will inevitably increase as the area 2 hours north of Milwaukee will become a golfer's mecca.  The synergy between the pampered American Club experience and the rugged minimalist Bandon Midwest will play off each other like the drug-induced synapses in "Limitless" until a global golf climax points all comers toward rural Wisconsin.  Hell, with Lawsonia, Erin Hills and the Dells within driving distance pretty soon one can imagine four-star chefs opening high-end gastropubs and Sheboygan even making a serious splash on the global fashion scene.  Oh wait a minute, THAT WOULD BE THE DUMBEST BUSINESS DECISION SINCE NEW COKE!....

[Tom_Doak]

 

Luckily, Mike does not even need to pursue this since Erin Hills has already claimed to be the Bandon of the Midwest.

[Phil McDade]

Jud:

I have little doubt that Kohler's golf courses here in Wisconsin -- the big four of the Straits, Irish, and the Blackwolf Run courses -- are hurting financially. Wisconsin's economy is still struggling, and although those courses are priced at a point where those less impacted by the economic downtown will still play them, they also get a lot of corporate outing play and one-time play -- the big round of the year, so to speak -- by retirees, vactioners and regular working stiffs, and I know that part of the golf industry is hurting in many quarters.

But Kohler is also a long-term thinker and dreamer -- he's been around a long time, probably views economic downturns as part of the normal business cycle, and knows oceanside (or Lake Michigan clifftop) land is a rare and shrinking commodity, so it wouldn't surprise me if he jumped at an opportunity on the Oregon coast.

And I just think the high-end market here in Wisconsin is pretty saturated -- his courses, Nicklaus has one in Sheboygan, Erin Hills, a few others. Kohler may think his best market for expanding golf isn't here anymore.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

Why is the American Club hurting while Bandon is still expanding?  Can't imagine the economy in rural Oregon is dramatically better.  Maybe it's because the quality of the courses, the inherent value thereof, and the focus on golf rather than overpriced rooms and pseudo-gourmet food, is dramatically better (I will admit that the spa at Kohler is one thing I'd pay a return visit to).  Some might even argue that the one course at Kohler that is very highly rated has grade inflation as well...Personally I think Herb's foray into St. Andrews makes a lot more long-term business sense than trying to go up against the big dog in Oregon with Perry Dye up your sleeve...

[Phil McDade]

Jud:

I don't know, really, how either place is doing -- both are privately run, or at least in the case of Kohler a separate entity that's run pretty much by Herb. If Bandon's doing well while the rest of the golfing world is not, kudos to them -- although there may be explanations for that as well. And Keiser may have very different expectations, both in terms of financial payback and the golf experience itself, than Kohler (in fact, I'm pretty sure he does).

They are two different markets, it seems -- Oregon a true destination resort, nationally certainly, whereas Kohler is more of a regional one -- Kohler was shrewd enough to recognize a high-end resort with golf within an easy day's drive of the Twin Cities, Chicago, and a state of 5 million (when first built) would succeed, while Keiser was shrewd enough to recognize a niche market existed for, essentially, the links experience of Scotland and Ireland without having to leave the US.

I don't doubt that the golf is better at Bandon than at Herb's courses. But I don't think that has a lot to do with the relative success of either enterprise -- some, but not entirely.

I'm guessing the Old Course Hotel has been a very solid investment for Herb.

[Jud_T]

I don't doubt that the golf is better at Bandon than at Herb's courses. But I don't think that has a lot to do with the relative success of either enterprise
.

Seriously?  Do you think people like spending a full day's travel either way simply to be buffeted by 30 mph winds while eating meatloaf?

[Phil McDade]

Jud:

OK, without belaboring this.....

You really have to make an effort, unless you live in Coos Bay or Eugene, to get to Bandon. Loooong car trips, multiple flights, shuttles...

I can jump in my car right now and be at Kohler and the resort in two hours. So can you (depending on traffic at the Marquette Interchange, of course. ) So can, roughly, @ 10 million people (including the Twin Cities, a four-hour drive).

Just because both places offer "golf" doesn't mean they will be successful, or not, for the same reasons.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

Point taken; I realize I'm in a bit of a devil's advocate mood this morning (maybe it was Wofford throwing in a meaningless 3 at the buzzer just to be sure BYU didn't cover ).  I certainly get the business boondogle from Chicago concept at Kohler and I've been on a few of 'em.  But purely for golf I'd rather drive an hour to Ravisloe, 1.5 hours to Erin Hills, 3.5 hours to Lawsonia or 4.5 hours to Kingsley than pony up at Kohler.  Just one golf snob's opinion of course...

[Phil McDade]

Thanks for the reminder -- I do need to get down to Ravisloe. And I'd much rather play Lawsonia or head up to Kingsley than go to Kohler for the golf. Erin Hills I'm not quite sold on yet...

[Mark Johnson]

Here is my guess on what happens.

Herb will open a resort in Oregon with top class golf, but will also be alot more "resorty" than Bandon Dunes.  Will likely have first class spa and conference facilities.

This will atttract the corporate business as well as wives of golfers for long weekends.

One of the reasons the American Club does so well is due to its conference facilities.  My company often holds meeting there and certain dates are full over a year in advance.

[Garland Bayley]

I thought the area up on Three Capes Drive (way up North) would be a great site for a golf course on the Oregon coast.  No - it's not sand-based, a key to Bandon's greatness, but it is extremely scenic and a lot closer to Portland.

Dan,

You apparently missed half of the drive. The place is crawling with dunes and is a dune buggy and ATV haven.

EDIT:

In the google earth photo below, you can see the Three Capes Road cutting right through the open dunes. The land is national forest land and a lot of the dunes have had trees become established, thereby disguising the true nature of the land which is sand. Think about going up to the 14th tee at Bandon Trails. Lots of tree, but still sand based land.

In Pacific City on the three capes route, the homeowners do constant battle with keeping the dunes from trying to cover their yards and homes, and the streets often look like they have drifted in like you would see in a plains state winter.

[Garland Bayley]

I thought the area up on Three Capes Drive (way up North) would be a great site for a golf course on the Oregon coast.  No - it's not sand-based, a key to Bandon's greatness, but it is extremely scenic and a lot closer to Portland.

kiboshed with environmental concerns

Golf has to have a lot smaller impact than what goes on there now. You should see the wildlife that look scared out of their wits there.

[Joe Bentham]

I grew up in Tillamook. Worked a couple of summers at Cape Lookout State Park. Golf course sites everywhere you look.  The area south of Cape Lookout (all the sand in the picture) is called sand lake. Devolpers have had their eye a little south of there, at Tierre Del Mar just north of Pacific City.
Most all of the Oregon Coast would make a good golf course. And much of it is linksland.  If I was Herb, I'd look north of Bandon. Although I think Mr. K might've beat him to that already...

[Jason Topp]

"I grew up in Tillamook."

Ever hear the Todd Snider song "Tilamook County Jail"? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klQgm_11O6I

[Carl Rogers]

Axiomatically, to be successful, do something different .. ultimately to be judged as better.
Bandon Resort .... what does it do well?  After 4 days there in February, that is obvious. 

What trade offs does Bandon Resort make?  Kind of a complex question, but let me try. 
1. Carrying your bag and walking 36 a day is very very rough on this 57 year old.  My golf game takes  a big hit on that fact.  Something tells me that I am not alone in that experience.
2. The golf there is very difficult and demanding.  The experience of walking the courses is beyond measure, but a lot of 16 handicappers will get tired of putting "X's" on their card and 3-4 putting every hole.
3. In as much is that I am a golf nut, this web site is populated by golf nuts, the whole world are NOT golf nuts.  The non-golfing members of the family have to have something to do.  My wife would not be a full time Bandonista.
     3a. As a collary to that, a certain amount of the Bandon crowd does represent the middle aged fraternity, which the wife would strenuously   
     object to and that  I have outgrown.

Perhaps the next golf experience on the Oregon coast can address those issues, if the marketplace thinks they are issuess.

[Jud_T]

 

1. Carrying your bag and walking 36 a day is very very rough on this 57 year old.  My golf game takes  a big hit on that fact.  Something tells me that I am not alone in that experience.

That's why they have one of the best caddy programs in the country....

[Jud_T]

2. The golf there is very difficult and demanding.  The experience of walking the courses is beyond measure, but a lot of 16 handicappers will get tired of putting "X's" on their card and 3-4 putting every hole.

Really? Aside from a few holes at Bandon Trails, I'd say it's very wind dependent and much less demanding than many other championship destination courses.  Again, that's why they have one of the best caddy programs in the country...

[Carl Rogers]

 

1. Carrying your bag and walking 36 a day is very very rough on this 57 year old.  My golf game takes  a big hit on that fact.  Something tells me that I am not alone in that experience.

That's why they have one of the best caddy programs in the country....

I found out that I am not 25 years old any more.  I doubt the caddy would have made any difference...
The main point of my intital response is that a new development can not directly compete with Bandon.  Golf is going to have to be only one of the activity options.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I welcome new golf,especially along the ocean. But a Herb and dye combo would not inspire me.

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