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PThomas

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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 05:21:02 PM »
Sorry, but the sucker market of USA golfers are done subsidizing your cheap memberships.  Just wait till my generation of people born before 1960 get too old, almost there, cause these youngsters who have their wives attached to their hips ain't golfing on vacation to Europe.  It's over baby.

Do you realize that when my wife was in Australia they wouldn't even take her US $100 bills.  Our money is crap and I don't see it getting any better.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 05:39:31 PM »
I think gloomy report on Euro could easily be substituted for World.
I also think its 2020 before it gets better. It needs golf courses to close to reduce the over supply.
Sadly my last 'dire' prediction we will lose an age of golf course architects. I cant see the likes of Jack Nicklaus doing much more.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 06:03:17 PM »
I like one of the readers' comments;

The golf course must be the priority. Architecture and maintenance must be first rate. I would absolutely relax jeans and cell phone restrictions if membership is needed.


Couldn't agree more.

Sev K-H Keil

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 06:16:28 PM »
Generalizing statistics for an entire continent might be a mistake; the data is much more heterogenous  --- there are several statistics that show that in central, western and southern Europe the game is growing quite a bit --- unfortunately, GB&I show a downward trends.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Continued-growth-for-golf-in-Europe/1862/Default.aspx

The question is, what is it that the 'growth markets' are doing right and we are missing in GB&I and the US?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 06:21:02 PM »
Generalizing statistics for an entire continent might be a mistake; the data is much more heterogenous  --- there are several statistics that show that in central, western and southern Europe the game is growing quite a bit --- unfortunately, GB&I show a downward trends.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Continued-growth-for-golf-in-Europe/1862/Default.aspx

The question is, what is it that the 'growth markets' are doing right and we are missing in GB&I and the US?


Do you think the Chinese care if the working class can afford to golf?

Sev K-H Keil

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 06:36:08 PM »
In the (...very...) long run, even the Chinese will care...

However, my point was more in the context of the Europe article and I believe there are learnings or at least interesting observations to be made.  If we take a look at the way golf is positioned and managed in Austria, Germany, Sweden, etc. --- fairly reasonably priced, walking only, quicker rounds, strong focus on junior golf (often for free as a requirement for tax-exampt status), courses designed for efficient maintenance, playable almost year-round (incl. winter greens), low management overhead, club restaurants rented out to local restaurateurs, many short 9 hole courses in urban areas, European-wide reciprocal access, to name a few...

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 06:46:04 PM »
In the (...very...) long run, even the Chinese will care...

However, my point was more in the context of the Europe article and I believe there are learnings or at least interesting observations to be made.  If we take a look at the way golf is positioned and managed in Austria, Germany, Sweden, etc. --- fairly reasonably priced, walking only, quicker rounds, strong focus on junior golf (often for free as a requirement for tax-exampt status), courses designed for efficient maintenance, playable almost year-round (incl. winter greens), low management overhead, club restaurants rented out to local restaurateurs, many short 9 hole courses in urban areas, European-wide reciprocal access, to name a few...

Sev, thanks for the knowledge.  I'm guessing your post above will lead to much more welcome discussion.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 06:48:14 PM »
Joe,

The article says that golf in Europe is in the tank and Sev says it is a model we should learn from.  Which is it?

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 06:53:09 PM »
Joe,

The article says that golf in Europe is in the tank and Sev says it is a model we should learn from.  Which is it?

Why do you think I said his post would lead to discussion?!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Melvyn Morrow

Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2011, 06:53:33 PM »
So the sale of electronic distance aids and the hiring of carts have slowed. People now being forced to use eyes instead of aids and walking instead of riding, wow – but somehow I do not see Europe suffering that much. In fact I see health benefits and more requirement for GCA now that people are walking again.

 Come on guys is it not the walkers who form the majority in being interested in the course architecture. Do you (the designers) get more enjoyment and personal satisfaction from designing cart tracks than course hazards?

Gloomy,  Europe, maybe but is that why so many come to Scotland – we may have some (gloom) but we also have the ‘water of life’ in our Single Malts to take the sting out of the Gloom.

Gloomy – whatever, but let’s think and pray for all the people in Japan who are unable to even think of gloomy in this their darkest hours. No Single Malt can take their pains away

Melvyn


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2011, 06:57:50 PM »
Joe,

The article says that golf in Europe is in the tank and Sev says it is a model we should learn from.  Which is it?

Why do you think I said his post would lead to discussion?!

You nailed that one.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2011, 07:22:36 PM »
Oddly, we have a couple of hot new potential projects in Europe this year, in France and Spain.  Hard to believe considering the struggles the European economy is going through.  Otherwise, though, things in Europe appear quite slow, apart from a bit of movement in Holland, and three different new projects [in Germany, Portugal, and Madrid] being built in pursuit of the 2018 Ryder Cup.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2011, 07:37:31 PM »
A fequent mistake made in this era of consumerist/marketing/jingoism/bluring of economic lines is that folks confuse the business of a game/sport with the game/sport itself - acting as if they are one and the same.  I think its all just another way to sell junk as journalism - any hot headline will sell for a day.  No need to worry because the same story will appear in a routine cycle some months down the line.  Ignoring the price of petrol and air travel, what I would call core golfers have never had it so good. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2011, 09:43:45 PM »
it;s a KPMG survey, they haven't been close since they decided to be golf experts.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2011, 04:13:58 AM »
A fequent mistake made in this era of consumerist/marketing/jingoism/bluring of economic lines is that folks confuse the business of a game/sport with the game/sport itself - acting as if they are one and the same.  I think its all just another way to sell junk as journalism - any hot headline will sell for a day.  No need to worry because the same story will appear in a routine cycle some months down the line.  Ignoring the price of petrol and air travel, what I would call core golfers have never had it so good. 

Ciao   
Sean - I think largely they are one and the same. The fundamentals of golf as a business must work and it must work not only commercially to return someone some dollars or else no one will invest in new golf projects, it must also work to fit in with social behaviour patterns. Both those bits/parts are sliding away at the moment. Golf is a game but to be healthy the roots need to be sound for the rest to grow.
I think the core problem is over supply, it might only be 10%, but the trouble is that rarely is there 10% profit in a golf course, that means that from this forum of us loving golf course architecture and looking forward to the next great new one, it is not going to happen so frequently in this Western world and the great ones just opened will be in for a very rocky road because their birth has clashed with stormy times.
When I read of a course being built just for the Olympic games I see the same type of idiot mistakes made by alledged wise bankers, here comes another toxic debt.
Golf needs to grow its numbers, kids play on computers these days, golf takes too long, golf is too expensive, compliance with health and safety law have put the price up, I am not allowed to use my cell phone to take a call on the golf course can mean I cant play.
There still have not been many UK casualties, though many golf courses are operating bare bones, this morning we just lost a corporate member, amazingly they are our highest user, playing most days, but I guess their buisness can no longer sustain such frivoulous expense.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2011, 04:44:29 AM »
Adrian

No, golf doesn't need to grow its numbers, businessmen in golf need for golf to grow its numbers.  Golf can do very nicely with half the courses and half the golfers if need be.  Of course this may well mean that an English speaking country isn't the centre of the game anymore, but we have had one major shift in the centre of the game moving from Britain to the US and things worked out okay.  I am not worried about the future of the game, but if I was in the golf business, especially course ownership, I would be worried. 

Incidentallly, I wrote a letter yesterday resigning from a membership.  I liked most of what the club did and how it operated and supported the club despite not getting real value for money these past few years.  I only had three real complaints; one hole was mucked with and should never have been touched; the club trying to grow rough; but these I could live with if dues stayed stable - and they did.  What I couldn't abide by was temporary greens not being put back into play when thawed.  That pissed me off to no end as a country member because I only really ever head down nice weather (mainly in the winter) which often means clear skies at night.  The only other issue for membership had nothing to do with the club and that was the incredible rise in fuel costs.  It now costs too much money to pop down for a game even with a membership.  At £1.40 a litre thats £6.30 a gallon.  That works out to 13p a mile in fuel costs if you are getting 50mph a gallon.  Its stupid money to drive for a game of golf. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2011, 06:05:24 AM »
I agree with everything that Sean has said (I usually do). I don't understand why golf needs to grow its numbers.

Whom do we speak of when we say we need to grow the game? Is it the architects, course staff, club managers, or the casual nomadic golfer? Not everybody is interested in golf. At what stage do we say that golf doesn't need to grow any further? I understand that it is a tough time for architects, course construction companies, club managers, and anybody else employed in the business, but for the ordinary member, the situation isn't so bad. As for the golfer desperately seeking to join a club, there has never been a better time than the present.

A real golf club (in the GB&I at least) is not a business. It's a club where members play regularly with friends, enjoy a lunch, attend dinner dances, participate in club outings, inter club matches, organise youth schemes, etc. The purpose of a golf club is to survive -  not necessarily to make a profit - and usually to benefit the local community. Real golf clubs do not depend on green fees alone, although it is now a large proportion of their revenue. The worry for golf clubs is the drop in green fee numbers and the loss of members. This is cyclical. Recessions come and go, and the vast majority of these clubs will survive. Clubs are adapting by reducing green fees, entrance fees, annual fees, and offering other special deals.

Those high-end courses that were built and hoped to survive using a business model based on green fees and corporate golf may indeed be in trouble. These are not golf clubs. These are businesses first and foremost. Many of these businesses price themselves beyond the paying ability of the local inhabitants. They may bring visitors to the area, but in terms of growing the game, I don't think they make a positive contribution. I certainly don't loose any sleep over these operations. Many of these course owners jumped on the chance of an easy buck and are now paying the price for their foolishness.

I also don't have much sympathy for clubs that tried to take advantage of new members during the boom times, by extracting obscene entrance fees. When I lived in Dublin in the late 90s and 00s, I enquired about joining a club in north Dublin. The entrance fees quoted ranged from €3500 to €11000. In most cases, these entrance fees were non-refundable. To many of you in the US, these numbers may sound like peanuts, but for Europeans, these amounts are quite significant. Many of these clubs have now dropped or eliminated their entrance fees. Why should that bother me? These clubs were greedy and survived on a revenue flow that was not guaranteed. They may now be paying the price for that recent club house refurbishment, or other unnecessary expense, that was initially bankrolled by unfortunate and desperate golfers.

As for golf the Middle East as we know it, is anybody seriously going to tell me that that business model is sustainable?

Golf will survive, but only if it returns to the club model (or low-end pay-and-play) that lives within and benefits the local community.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 06:26:13 AM »
You are correct that golf does not need to grow, but of course we need less golf courses, so some need to return to agriculutre or just go wild. Yes nothing wrong in that. I think most people in golf would lean to growing the game, you may think you are okay as a member at the moment but you are not at all, one of two things will happen if numbers drop, your subscription will increase or the quality of the club will have to lower, possibly a combination of course.

Donal you are missing a point about buisness and profit. All golf clubs are buisness's, some dont need to make a profit in the sense of a dividend return but ALL should look to make a surplus for a rainy day. In ALL business terms clubs operate the same way its just that the ownership of the club in many situations belongs with the membership, their profit from the buisness lies in a lower subscription. I maintain that to be a dividend.

Sean, how did you know the greens were thawed, did you go and test the greens in numerous areas. A common mistake is to look and think a green has thawed because you see no ice accumulation. The worst time for turf is the very time when all looks green the top has thawed but the under few inches is in permafrost. Let the greenkeeper decide he is your expert.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 07:00:11 AM »
Adrian

It would be lovely to have an expert decide, but they aren't around much on weekends.  Sadly, the club will have less money to pay that expert with my resignation, but thats the way the cookie crumbles.   This issue is one main reason I joined another links club - they use greens no matter the frost conditions.  

I am very old school when it comes to links.  I never have believed that serious long term damage is done to links greens by playing on them when frosted.   First, its a numbers game, many guys won't play on frosted greens.  Second, not many shots come banging into frosted greens.  Third, most guys I know who play on frosted greens take care to walk around the greens as much as posisible.  Fourth, guys don't join clubs (especially links) to play on temps.  Fifth, its only grass.  If a green keeper is doing a decent job nobody will notice a few games were played on frosted links greens a month later.  

BTW - Subscriptions were increasing dramatically in the boom years of the 90s and early oughts.  To a large degree, budgets can be controlled quite well if folks dig into the matter and sort out whats what. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 07:04:02 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2011, 07:09:22 AM »
Adrian

.  It now costs too much money to pop down for a game even with a membership.  At £1.40 a litre thats £6.30 a gallon.  That works out to 13p a mile in fuel costs if you are getting 50mph a gallon.  Its stupid money to drive for a game of golf. 

Ciao



Sean, it costs me £40 return to get to Deal, driving. It definitely takes casual games on the spur of the moment out of the equation.

£30 on the high speed train out of Kings Cross and then you can have as many post-round beers as you like!

Or take three mates down and the fuel only costs a tenner each...

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2011, 09:10:34 AM »
Sorry, but the sucker market of USA golfers are done subsidizing your cheap memberships.  Just wait till my generation of people born before 1960 get too old, almost there, cause these youngsters who have their wives attached to their hips ain't golfing on vacation to Europe.  It's over baby.

Do you realize that when my wife was in Australia they wouldn't even take her US $100 bills.  Our money is crap and I don't see it getting any better.

John, do you seriously think an American grocery store in say Indiana would take an Australian $100 bill?

I had a hard time getting an English restaurant to take my £20 Bank of Scotland note!

MikeJones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2011, 10:53:39 AM »
I attended a function recently at a local club in the UK and got to meet up with some old friends and fellow pros in the area which enabled me to get a good view of the situation from their perspective. Most clubs had gone from having member waiting lists 5 years ago to now allowing new memberships with no joining fee. Even with these financial incentives they are losing members and not replacing them quickly enough.

Many clubs have been cutting green staff and looking at ways of paying their pro less retainer in order to save money. I think these are both bad policies as compromising both member services and course condition isn't likely to attract new members or help in keeping the ones they have. The clubs that are bucking the trend to cut back are reaping the rewards and scooping up members from other courses where things are slowly starting to slide.

In the end the progressive forward thinking clubs will come out stronger and one thing is certain, as a golfer in the UK there has never been a better time to join a golf club as it's about as cheap as it gets right now.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 10:57:25 AM by MikeJones »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2011, 01:34:14 PM »
Mike its called death spiral. Very easy to get into unfortunately, tough to get out of and your way of investing in staff and making the club better sounds sensible but is rarely the clubs choice because by the time they have entered death spiral they already have no money and have to cut costs to balance the books.

A club membership is cheap golf for some but expensive for others, if you play twice a week why should you pay the same as a once a month player.... there are two answers, one of these answers ends up in a resigination.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2011, 01:56:33 PM »
Sorry, but the sucker market of USA golfers are done subsidizing your cheap memberships.  Just wait till my generation of people born before 1960 get too old, almost there, cause these youngsters who have their wives attached to their hips ain't golfing on vacation to Europe.  It's over baby.

Do you realize that when my wife was in Australia they wouldn't even take her US $100 bills.  Our money is crap and I don't see it getting any better.

John, do you seriously think an American grocery store in say Indiana would take an Australian $100 bill?

I had a hard time getting an English restaurant to take my £20 Bank of Scotland note!

Bill

I hope you torched the place, only kidding.

John K,

Interesting comment. I suspect that the KPMG report dealt with commercial businesses which wouldn't include your average UK club which gets very little if anything from overseas visitors compared to their total income. Accepting however that there are some courses that rake in overseas fees, I wonder in the balance of trade figures for golf fees, whether the US gets more from Europe than Europe gets from the US. I've never seen a figure but I would hazard a guess that it would show the US in credit.

Adrian,

Sticking with average members clubs rather than commercial concerns for a moment. Given that their income is less variable ie. the drop in fees at pay and plays is likely to be a lot more than the money lost from the decrease in members at a club, the one thing I would focus on most is reducing costs off course. Anything non-golf related which didn't wash its face would go, eg. having the kitchen open for fancy evening meals when most nights you are lucky to get one table of four. Money saved could cover lost members or if the clubs managed to hang to its members then spend the money saved on the course. At heart its the course that golfers care about. They can easily forego the clubhouse being redecorated every 3 years provided the greens are good.

Niall