[Mark Johnson]

My dad never let me look at yardages growing up.  This was invaluable, teaches you how to feel yardages.    I think if everyone played five rounds without looking at yardages, they would be much better for it.

That said, I think courses should have them just because they probably speed up play.  I can see all of the 25 handicaps out there nit knowing what to do because they are unsure if they have 183 or 186 yards to the pin

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark,

Never mind 183 or 186, I bet you most mid-high handicaps couldn't tell if it was 170 or 200. I was playing the other day and someone lasered a yardage for me and got 114, and I said there was no way it was that far (it was 89, he lasered the back bunker).  He couldn't believe that I could tell the difference between 89 and 114.  How could a guy like that play on a course with no markers?

[Mark Johnson]

Mark,

Never mind 183 or 186, I bet you most mid-high handicaps couldn't tell if it was 170 or 200. I was playing the other day and someone lasered a yardage for me and got 114, and I said there was no way it was that far (it was 89, he lasered the back bunker).  He couldn't believe that I could tell the difference between 89 and 114.  How could a guy like that play on a course with no markers?

Fair point.  That said, I dont think it makes a difference for a high handicapper, since most can't hit a edge with 20 yard precision. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the real problem with YES/NO to having them is that a total ban is not going to happen and if you chose not to use them yourself you will be disadavantaged. There has never been anything in the rule books to stop you mapping the course yourself, so the evolution was the caddy mapped it for the pro's, then to save money the caddy bought a $10 book from someone that does 156 of them each week. As soon as the pros have it the Ams want it too, we have gone on with sprinkler heads marked (which probably slow the game) to 100-150-200 discs in the fairway (probably speeds it a touch) and now GPS.
Whilst I am theoretically against them, if I am playing a new course I dont want to play a hole badly/ drop a shot because I have the wrong club so I suppose having the knowledge of the distance does increase the enjoyment.
I wonder whats next, will we get contoured green drawings with information telling us how far outside the hole we need to aim.

[Dan Herrmann]

Dan-I believe the numbers on the sprinkler heads at PV are so they can be turned on in banks, i.e. all of a corresponding number can be turned on at one time. Maybe someone can chime in that knows the answer to this but I think even though the caddies know the yardage from each one the numbers were not intended for that purpose.

Tim - the caddies have a book that translates the code to the yardage.  At least that's what one guy told me while I was watching the Philly Open there.

[Sam Morrow]

If there were no markers what do the visually impaired players do?

[Richard Choi]

If there were no markers what do the visually impaired players do?

Bitches be trippin'

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm very tempted to go all Melvyn H. Morrow on this thread but I've done it before to no avail...

This issue seems to be a big divider on here... I think that the naysaysers just have no perception of the game without yardage aids and that clouds their judgement...

[Joe Bausch]

I kinda miss the 150 yard markers from my youth!

[Bill_McBride]

I don't think it works on courses with a lot of traffic.

The Valley Club has no markers but a book with the types and positions of trees, along with the yardage to the center of the green.

Occasionally that requires you to perform the role of amateur arborist. When you hit it way off line, some geometry skills are also required.

Anthony, that book is quite new. For years there was just a quarter of the scorecard devoted to 18 strips of hieroglyphics with yardages from various trees, sprinkler boxes, etc. A number of the trees had been missing for years.  And yes, in the words of one guest, "You have to be a frickin'  arborist to play this course" (to figure out which kind of tree, sycamore or elm!)

[Giles Payne]

If you are playing fast and firm yardages can become very misleading and your ability to judge how a ball will behave on landing depening on the flight becomes much more important. Yes, it is a help to know if you are hitting it 170 or 190, but you could use a number of different ways to reach it rather than flying it all the way.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm very tempted to go all Melvyn H. Morrow on this thread but I've done it before to no avail...

This issue seems to be a big divider on here... I think that the naysaysers just have no perception of the game without yardage aids and that clouds their judgement...

Ally,

I have no problem playing the game w/o yardage markers but if they are available then I will use them. But,those that extol the virtue of playing the game by feel while using the latest club technology have no credibility.

I disagree Kelly. The two don't have to be inextricably linked.

I just happen to think that judging a shot distance is a key element of the game, not to mention the clutter it removes in your head. As I'm sure you know, It frees your mind of extra numbers in much the same way as abandoning the scorecard and pencil mentality.

When playing links golf, they become meaningless anyway and feel ends up naturally taking over on most occasions. That said, I can't shake the competitive instinct completely. Whilst not searching out yardage markers, I will more often than not have a quick glance for the 150 yard marker. But I'd be more than happy for it to be removed and to be honest, it gives me no real help.

As for equipment, that seems like a harder fight than yardage markers. I'm not into equipment advances either but I'm not so pure as to not own a graphite shafted driver.

All that aside, it's the deception element that interests me most.... Less information = better fun for architect and player

[Melvyn Morrow]

Are we saying that a golfer who uses yardage can’t play or can’t judge the effort required for the stroke to get him close to the flag. Has his/her game just imploded and their bodies taken over with nervous withdrawal & shaking. No, of course not, they do what they do naturally, they address the ball check location of pin and take the shot. 

Imagine a plain field with no way of judging distance apart from a Flag that can be moved to a different position after every shot. How close a golfer gets their ball to the pin depends upon how skilled they are with the eye/body coordination. Let’s not forget that after going through the elaborate distance checking process with books, markers, electronic devices or even pacing out the distance, all that is overruled when the golfer actually address the ball and his eyes see the pin before the final swing is taken. Like it or not, the mind and body takes over automatically, rendering much of the distance information the performance in getting it next to useless.

 Ladies and Gentlemen you are actually better golfers that you think you are, OK so it will take a few rounds to get your eye back in total control and allow your mind to purify itself of useless distance crap until it see the pin for that last time before the final swing.

Do not believe me than let’s go back to the above mention blank empty field except for that movable pin. Let’s give 100 golfers 100 balls and select 18 different pin positions for each golfer  - all without any distance reference and  see how close each gets to the pin, repeat the exercise with yardage aids. Wonder what the final outcome will be, I think it may well surprise some, but add to the fact that you probably did just as well unaided, yet I bet it was more fun and satisfying without the need for distance aids.

I most sincerely believe that distance information in the form of books, markers, electronic aids, selfish pacing and even from the Caddie is a total distraction to one’s game and can take the edge of a great day’s golf.

Distance aids are a very expensive and addictive Placebo when related to the Game of Golf. It does not look cool, it’s disrupts your train of thought and it is very addictive, but in truth is as helpful as any placebo used in any experiment.

Melvyn

[Harris Nepon]

I absolutly prefer golf when I have an idea of yardage thanks to markers. I don't need every sprinkler head marked, or a yardge book with every trap and mound marked. All i'm asking for is the 150 yard marker at a minimum and 100, 150, and 200 at the most.

I like to be as presice as possible when playing. There is a 10 yard (approximately) difference in each of my irons and I would rather be on the green then 10 yards short or past. Even with yardages you still need to have a feel for the distance so I dont' see whats so wrong with it. If it's a purist thing, i agree with previous posts, you must not be using titeliest balls, or taylormade irons, or drivers, or even sun mountain golf bags. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

There is always a reason why many need help but then the game for years never required distamce aids, shows how weak our resolve has become these days. Its helps me so I must use it, but then it does not matter if one turns ones back on tradition, what next guys your flag, as not much else left  -  is there?

Melvyn

[Jason Topp]

This issue partially dependent on the architecture.

Yardage is a much different consideration when bouncing a shot in from the left side on this shot in a 20 mph wind




Than it is hitting this shot where I have about a 2 yard area in which to land the ball in order to stop it on a firm green



Replace the sand with water and the importance of knowing the correct yardage multiplies. 

I carry a laser rangefinder on all courses.  I use it all of the time in Florida.  I almost never touch it on a links because other factors such as trajectory, judging what the shot will do on the ground and simple feel are so much more important than precise carry distance.

[Greg Clark]

I kinda miss the 150 yard markers from my youth!

Exactly what I was thinking while reading this thread Joe.  I think I miss my youth more than the 150 bush, but as they were very common on the courses I played growing up, they have a fondness to me.  Thanks for posting the pic.

[Carl Nichols]

I don't think it works on courses with a lot of traffic.

The Valley Club has no markers but a book with the types and positions of trees, along with the yardage to the center of the green.

Occasionally that requires you to perform the role of amateur arborist. When you hit it way off line, some geometry skills are also required.

Anthony, that book is quite new. For years there was just a quarter of the scorecard devoted to 18 strips of hieroglyphics with yardages from various trees, sprinkler boxes, etc. A number of the trees had been missing for years.  And yes, in the words of one guest, "You have to be a frickin'  arborist to play this course" (to figure out which kind of tree, sycamore or elm!)

I played Cal Club a few weeks ago with a non-member and without caddies.  They don't have any yardage markers on the course, and the descriptions on the sheet of paper we got required some serious deciphering.  For most holes, they provide (1) a distance from the middle tees to a certain landform [e.g., "last tree on right" or "second bunker on left"] and (2) a distance from another landform to the middle of the green.  At the top there's something like a code to tell you whether you should be looking at the fronts or backs of the bunkers. 

I misjudged several shots.

[Garland Bayley]

I would be interested in knowing the view on judging distances from some of the early players/writers particularly as to the virtues of such skills. I would think many of those players would relish the idea of have yardages available to them. Even a 100, 150 and 200 yard marker would seem to violate the notion that we should all be skilled in judging distances. Further, I don’t see this virtue of playing without yardage indicators if you are playing with the latest club technology. The clubs you can play with today represent a dramatic departure in the way the game should be played. Having yardages markers on the course is insignificant compared to the way club technology has gutted any virtues in playing the game like earlier generations.

If you don't know how far you hit each club, and don't take advantage of yardage markers and play just from feel I would say you're a dumb son-of-a-bitch!

For a long time, I have felt this "the clubs you can play with today" argument has been a bunch of bs. I guess I might as well say it, and get it out of my system. I believe most golfers are brainwashed by golf club manufacturers. They are constantly preaching "easy to use" when all intelligent golfers know golf is not an easy game. I believe that if golfers went out and tested their handicap difference between using modern technology vs. traditional technology they would find at most a miniscule difference.

I say the average golfer that thinks he can gain an advantage by using exact distances instead of feel is a dumb sob.

[Scott Szabo]

I absolutly prefer golf when I have an idea of yardage thanks to markers. I don't need every sprinkler head marked, or a yardge book with every trap and mound marked. All i'm asking for is the 150 yard marker at a minimum and 100, 150, and 200 at the most.

I like to be as presice as possible when playing. There is a 10 yard (approximately) difference in each of my irons and I would rather be on the green then 10 yards short or past. Even with yardages you still need to have a feel for the distance so I dont' see whats so wrong with it. If it's a purist thing, i agree with previous posts, you must not be using titeliest balls, or taylormade irons, or drivers, or even sun mountain golf bags. 

+1

[Garland Bayley]

...someone told me the new balls will destroy the face of my Penna driver so I guess I'll retire it.

Kelly,

How can anyone agree with what you write, when you write things like this?
I guess you are claiming that all those rock flites that collided with my persimmon driver destroyed the face. Well, I just don't see it. The biggest advantage I see to metal woods is that I no longer break the heads off them, not that the balls destroyed the faces of my wooden clubs.

[Garland Bayley]

...someone told me the new balls will destroy the face of my Penna driver so I guess I'll retire it.

Kelly,

How can anyone agree with what you write, when you write things like this?
I guess you are claiming that all those rock flites that collided with my persimmon driver destroyed the face. Well, I just don't see it. The biggest advantage I see to metal woods is that I no longer break the heads off them, not that the balls destroyed the faces of my wooden clubs.

Garland,
I am not in the business of getting people to agree with me. As I said someone told me the new balls will destroy the face of my club. If this is wrong great. The only advantage to the metal drivers is you need less talent to hit a good drive. I have never had a wooden club break, but I have seen metal heads come off. Metal clubs don't provide the same pleasing feel as a wooden club.

I have had metal clubheads come off. They can be easily glued back on. My pro shop did my driver for free. When you break a wooden head, you have to replace the head.

I didn't follow the feel thread closely earlier, but I believe Rich Choi was saying that what people report as "feel" is really based on what they hear. I believe he was reporting scientific testing. I know the science has verified hearing was the cause of people "feeling" their putts.

[Greg Clark]

Kelly,

I play a reasonable amount of rounds in a year with persimmon woods and blades from the past.  Did so yesterday in fact.  Most modern balls are not a great match for persimmon.  The main reason for this is due to the low loft in the old clubs.  A lot  of the old persimmons had lofts in the 7.5 to 9.0 degree range, and they needed a high spin ball like a balata to give most golfers a chance to get the ball airborne.  Most folks today wanting to re-live the persimmon experience would be better playing with an old 2 wood, as they will hit it farther.  It is true that the cores on many modern high compression balls are harder than the old wound balls, and potentially could damage a poorly conditioned wood.

One solution for the driver is to get some balatas or Titleist Professionals off of Ebay.  I have bought a few dozen, and they are great to putt and chip with, but they go out of round really quick, and they punish bad shots.  Still fun.  The best solution is to find a low compression current ball that has some decent spin (most of these balls typically spin very little however).  I have found that the Wilson Zip is a great ball to play with persimmon drivers.  Zip stands for zero compression, and it spins enough to not suffer much in other areas of the game.  It is a solid mid tier ball for easy swingers, and a great ball for even hard swingers with the old gear.

Even if you do crack your Penna, they are plentiful on Ebay in great shape for $20 - $30.  In fact outside of a handful of specific models (mostly early 1950's Macgregors) a bunch of great woods can be had in this price range.  I hardily recommend getting some low compression modern balls and getting that Penna out on the course.

[Bill_McBride]

Kelly,

I play a reasonable amount of rounds in a year with persimmon woods and blades from the past.  Did so yesterday in fact.  Most modern balls are not a great match for persimmon.  The main reason for this is due to the low loft in the old clubs.  A lot  of the old persimmons had lofts in the 7.5 to 9.0 degree range, and they needed a high spin ball like a balata to give most golfers a chance to get the ball airborne.  Most folks today wanting to re-live the persimmon experience would be better playing with an old 2 wood, as they will hit it farther.  It is true that the cores on many modern high compression balls are harder than the old wound balls, and potentially could damage a poorly conditioned wood.

One solution for the driver is to get some balatas or Titleist Professionals off of Ebay.  I have bought a few dozen, and they are great to putt and chip with, but they go out of round really quick, and they punish bad shots.  Still fun.  The best solution is to find a low compression current ball that has some decent spin (most of these balls typically spin very little however).  I have found that the Wilson Zip is a great ball to play with persimmon drivers.  Zip stands for zero compression, and it spins enough to not suffer much in other areas of the game.  It is a solid mid tier ball for easy swingers, and a great ball for even hard swingers with the old gear.

Even if you do crack your Penna, they are plentiful on Ebay in great shape for $20 - $30.  In fact outside of a handful of specific models (mostly early 1950's Macgregors) a bunch of great woods can be had in this price range.  I hardily recommend getting some low compression modern balls and getting that Penna out on the course.

This is really good advice. When I was playing with my hickories more, I bought a bunch of gently used balata balls from some website I found with the Google.   I tried to hit my old persimmons last year with modern range balls, not much luck getting them airborne. Now those clubs live with Bret Morrisey in Oz!

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