Galloway National: A Fazio Course I ACTUALLY LIKE

[Michael Blake]

Kyle,

How does the hazard, when playing the set of tees one up from the regular tees (as I did both times there) affect one's decision off the tee, in theory?

[Michael Blake]

I've only really read Kyle's last post so I don't really know what the full disagreement is, but if the large bunker on the inside corner or #4 at Galloway is considered to have no strategic importance to the hole I'm really glad nobody asks for my opinion of the word strategic...

I agree.
It seems the debate is really about the shades of grey between strategic and penal, and people's own definitions of both.

[Kyle Harris]

I don't see that it does at all.

You still want to play inside the dogleg. The bunker isn't changing that fact - only limiting the amount of palatable space in which a golfer can do it.

The self-evident strategy of the hole is that playing just inside the corner in an area that leaves a clear shot at the green will give the best advantage. Just because someone places a bunker inside a dogleg near an ideal spot doesn't mean the hazard is in any way strategic.

Look at it this way - how does the bunker change the line of instinct? Where is Max Behr's so-called Line of Charm?

[JESII]

Kyle,

What are you assuming replaces the bunker in your scenario?

What if the replacement were more or less challenging than your initial thought? Such as fairway grass? Three foot high fescue?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

What are you assuming replaces the bunker in your scenario?

What if the replacement were more or less challenging than your initial thought? Such as fairway grass? Three foot high fescue?

It's been discussed, but anything in replacing that bunker. Any change is only going to change the difficulty of playing inside the dogleg not present different options for applying shots to the hole (read: strategy). Isn't it self-evident that playing inside the dogleg will give a shorter shot to the green than outside? How does the bunker alter that strategy? Changing the difficulty of a shot is NOT strategy, it's shot demand.

Is the key to get near the bunker or to the edge of the fairway - wherever that may be? This is a huge difference as the only aspect of that bunker that is affecting the tee shot is the edge of it that runs along the edge of the fairway. So really - how the fairway corridor is presented is the strategic element to the hole, not the bunker.

[JESII]

Kyle,

You just said "changing the difficulty of a shot is not strategy, it's shot demand".

In this scenario, which shot are we making more or less difficult by changing the bunker to something more or less difficult to play from?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

You just said "changing the difficulty of a shot is not strategy, it's shot demand".

In this scenario, which shot are we making more or less difficult by changing the bunker to something more or less difficult to play from?

The tee shot. Point of clarification: I didn't say anything about altering the difficulty of play from the bunker.

[JESII]

I asked about changing the bunker. To determine its value you have to imagine replacing it with a different surface. If it were fairway from wall to wall on that hole the strategy would be to play righ tthrough the center of what is currently sand. If the sand were replaced with three foot high fescue I would avoid it like the plague. As a bunker, I would try to get fairly close to it. That's strategy in my opinion.

[Kyle Harris]

I asked about changing the bunker. To determine its value you have to imagine replacing it with a different surface. If it were fairway from wall to wall on that hole the strategy would be to play righ tthrough the center of what is currently sand. If the sand were replaced with three foot high fescue I would avoid it like the plague. As a bunker, I would try to get fairly close to it. That's strategy in my opinion.

I disagree with the opinion is all. The nature of the hazard as a deterrent is inconsequential to the fact that playing inside the dogleg is still a superior play to playing outside the dogleg. The only thing altering the bunker does is to change the shot demands and tests your willingness to get near.

I think your definition of strategy does stand some scrutiny. By your definition, it could be reasonably argued that the bunkers pinching the fairway on the 18th at Bethpage Black are strategic, as well, since players can attempt to place a drive between them to gain a distance advantage from players playing short of them.

[JESII]

Kyle,

Every feature I have ever seen drives some degree of strategic planning.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Every feature I have ever seen drives some degree of strategic planning.

That's really my issue with it. The term just gets diluted thinking that way. I think enhancing the definition and employing a difference between strategic and tactical issues on the golf course is an important step to honing the art and science of golf architecture.

There is strategy in golf, which can either be pre-meditated or responsive in nature. Features drive strategy in many ways, but a strategic feature is a certain subset of golf feature that I feel requires a more stringent definition than "entering the golfer's mind." For me, simply accenting what is already apparent by the layout of the dogleg does not drive strategy.

[JESII]

Kyle,

The disparity in players ability is so tremendous in the context of analyzing the impact of a specific feature that if you're going to draw a line and say something doesn't qualify would be to take a big percentage of the population out of the conversation. I think you're trying to put something in a box that just doesn't fit.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

The disparity in players ability is so tremendous in the context of analyzing the impact of a specific feature that if you're going to draw a line and say something doesn't qualify would be to take a big percentage of the population out of the conversation. I think you're trying to put something in a box that just doesn't fit.

It's possible, but then again that would make any conversation about golf architecture a moot point since the variance in player ability would trump all. To use an extreme example, a mythical golfer always able to get down in two from 80 yards out will most likely never consider the bunker in attempting to get to that position. There are many different outliers, but we can draw many common threads across these different breadths of golfers. For example, I think we go both agree that before playing for the green, the golfer will ultimately have to reach the turn point of the dogleg, correct?

I agree that the variance in player ability is a gigantic factor in discussing golf strategy, however, there is a lot of merit in discussing player intent and methods of attack. I'm not particularly interested in how one golfer will play the hole at one point given all the variables at that moment in time.

[JESII]

Mt main point is that the bunker plays a very strategic role to me, but not necessarily any different than light rough to my mother and that the tree on the right up ahead is more of a problem for her, and not so much for me...

[Carl Nichols]

For the reasons I and others stated above and the reasons mentioned by Jim here, I think the waste bunker does have strategic value.  I don't want to put words in Kyle's mouth, but it seems like his primary argument is that the bunker doesn't have as *much* strategic value as others believe, since other aspects of the hole -- the dogleg, shape and angle of the green, and trees on the right -- have a greater effect on decisionmaking.  That seems like a reasonable position to me, but it doesn't mean that the decision to put a waste bunker there makes the hole worse, just that it doesn't deserve great praise.

[Kyle Harris]

For the reasons I and others stated above and the reasons mentioned by Jim here, I think the waste bunker does have strategic value.  I don't want to put words in Kyle's mouth, but it seems like his primary argument is that the bunker doesn't have as *much* strategic value as others believe, since other aspects of the hole -- the dogleg, shape and angle of the green, and trees on the right -- have a greater effect on decisionmaking.  That seems like a reasonable position to me, but it doesn't mean that the decision to put a waste bunker there makes the hole worse, just that it doesn't deserve great praise.

Carl:

You've got it, except for the part were you imply I made a qualitative judgment of the feature.

Just because it doesn't have strategic value, doesn't mean it doesn't have any value.

[JESII]

Kyle,

Every feature I have ever seen drives some degree of strategic planning.

That's really my issue with it. The term just gets diluted thinking that way. I think enhancing the definition and employing a difference between strategic and tactical issues on the golf course is an important step to honing the art and science of golf architecture.

There is strategy in golf, which can either be pre-meditated or responsive in nature. Features drive strategy in many ways, but a strategic feature is a certain subset of golf feature that I feel requires a more stringent definition than "entering the golfer's mind." For me, simply accenting what is already apparent by the layout of the dogleg does not drive strategy.

Kyle,

In this post here you sure seem to be aiming to take that bunker out of the Strategic end of the pool...

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Every feature I have ever seen drives some degree of strategic planning.

That's really my issue with it. The term just gets diluted thinking that way. I think enhancing the definition and employing a difference between strategic and tactical issues on the golf course is an important step to honing the art and science of golf architecture.

There is strategy in golf, which can either be pre-meditated or responsive in nature. Features drive strategy in many ways, but a strategic feature is a certain subset of golf feature that I feel requires a more stringent definition than "entering the golfer's mind." For me, simply accenting what is already apparent by the layout of the dogleg does not drive strategy.

Kyle,

In this post here you sure seem to be aiming to take that bunker out of the Strategic end of the pool...

That's right, by applying a more stringent definition. It has other more accurately descriptive features first.

Some people's yellow are others goldenrod.

[JESII]

The term Strategy/Strategic is too broad in the world of golf to only include the Goldenrod's...nice analogy by the way...

[Kyle Harris]

The term Strategy/Strategic is too broad in the world of golf to only include the Goldenrod's...

Exactly my point. We need our tans, etc.

[JESII]

Are you suggesting features like the bunker at Galloway fall under a different definition?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I've only really read Kyle's last post so I don't really know what the full disagreement is, but if the large bunker on the inside corner or #4 at Galloway is considered to have no strategic importance to the hole I'm really glad nobody asks for my opinion of the word strategic...

Jim,  What is your definition of strategic? 

return address, Ivory Tower, OH; Ivory Tower, CA

[Kyle Harris]

Are you suggesting features like the bunker at Galloway fall under a different definition?

Yes.

[JESII]

For what purpose?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kyle, what if the bunker was more of the placement and appearance of the 13th at Bethpage Red?[/color=red] 

I am in agreement with your points in this discussion.  [/color=red]