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Brian Curley

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Stone Forest International C.C.
« on: March 05, 2011, 01:38:21 AM »
Based on a few threads lately about the course, I wanted to share with you all a bit of information about the project and provide some commentary to go along with some of the spectacular photos that were posted last week.

I first walked the property about 4 years ago and was blown away at the potential. In a country where most properties we work with are in need of major, walloping dirt moves (sides of hills, massive cuts and fills, fish ponds, etc.) This property was rugged and challenging but had the potential to be very natural. I am sure I spent more time walking this property than any other to date. Prominent, massive stone formations made for obvious green locations/backdrops but there were few areas that weren’t awash with minor scatterings of stone. Walking was a chore in itself as the stone formations are both large and sharp and the thorny vegetation was covered with thick weeds harboring huge multi-colored spiders by the thousands.
  My first reaction was that the course would resemble those 1970’s calendars that showed cartoony golf holes with tees and greens perched atop rock pinnacles with ladders and rope swings where hikers/golfers braved the extremes. I was convinced a number of awesome holes would be found but was convinced most about how to make the connections. Finding great holes would be easy; the challenge was avoiding bad holes.
   The three courses have subtle differences in style but I was not convinced with creating “looks” or “styles” – I felt the stone was the show and wanted the courses to be about the natural features and not the courses itself. I did not want bunkers to say “look at me” with bright white sand and was happily able to talk the ownership into using a more grayish sand to match the stone, the result is a very natural three core course complex where holes are laid upon the terrain with what appears like a limited amount of work.
   Playability was always a concern but I feel we have 54 very playable & fair holes. Despite the dominance of stone in many of the photos, the holes are very forgiving and the number of times one may find themselves pinned against a potentially dangerous lie are few. As strong as the Yufeng Ridge and Masters Resort  courses are, Leaders Peak  is phenomenal from start to finish as it weaves through pine forest, to open meadow to a back nine of wicked stone formations. Feedback so far is that the courses play a bit easier than they appear; I think that is a good thing and during construction, always give the direction, “when in doubt, widen it out.” Golfers are there to be in the wild stone environment and I felt moderate difficulty combined with great conditioning would draw repeat play. Beating up players with relentless difficulty was not our goal and I believe we have a proper balance of playability, outstanding conditioning, and stunning scenery. I firmly believe this is one of the best golf experiences in China and a must-play for everyone. I also believe it should make a strong showing on the international scene.



Hole Description: #2 Yufeng Ridge 399Yards   Par4

(This photo is taken from well to the right on the fairway of #1)





Hole Description: #13 Yufeng Ridge 387Yards   Par4

(Easily one of the most photogenic holes as it hugs a rock-strewn ridge to a pinnacle backdrop. The views to the valley left and beyond go on for miles. I initial wanted to make this a driveable par 4 but the obvious greensite was not deep enough to accept tee shots. I opted to go with a shortish par 4 that swings right to left where the best tee shot sets up an approach into a long, narrow green.)





Hole Description: #16 Yufeng Ridge 340Yards   Par4

(Playing slightly downhill, the green is fairly severe and is fronted with deep bunkers. This was an obvious greensite but required a significant fill to make it adequate in size.)


Brian Curley

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2011, 01:46:03 AM »
Hole Description: #6 Leaders Peak 426 Yards   Par4

 (This landing areas was an existing flatish area that had been a corn field so most of the work was to the greensite where we did a fair amount of rock blasting, especially short-right. Out of the picture on the right is a ridge of outcrops that necks down the drive.)





Hole Description: #8 Leaders Peak 428 Yards   Par4

(The landing area was one of the widest clearings on the site so we have a centerline bunker splitting the fairway. The Photo is taken short and right of the green and shows how the fairway extends into the green, one of the largest, set in a series of pinnacles.)





Hole Description: #11 Leaders Peak 338 Yards   Par4

(Easily, one of the most dramatic holes on the property, it was cleared much like you see today. When I first saw the property the greensite was a small patch of corn field and the fairway was terraced farms so the hole required very little work. Ample room is available for lay-up options from the tee and the adventurous can take a direct line at the green by carrying a vicious swath of stone. The backdrop of stone features hanging vegetation and bougainvillea.  It is obviously dramatic but the options of play contribute to this hole being not just a pretty face, but also a smart and demanding golf hole.)



(Green Site)




Hole Description: #12 Leaders Peak 196 Yards   Par3
 
(The second of back to back visual stunners, this hole is very intimidating from the tee. It is in effect, and island green surrounded by stone but the “safe” landing area of green and fairway is exceptionally large at 21,300 sq. ft. or about 4 times the size of the T.P.C. Sawgrass #17. Because the rock extends up, it limits visibility making the target seem small. The walk to the green is an adventure as you meander along a narrow path that hugs the massive rock formations. Again, this greensite was all there when I first walked the property and I played with a number of options for the best angle of play)





Hole Description: #14 Leaders Peak 457 Yards   Par4

(This photo is taken from the landing area, a bit short of our staked turning point. The tee shot, especially from the tips, must carry a sea of stone but the fairway is massive and easily hit. The green sets into a natural clearing that is flanked right by tall pinnacles and fronted by deep stone chasms. Left of the green is a fairly large bail-out fairway area just below the green. A very picturesque and demanding hole but very fair.)





Hole Description: #16 Leaders Peak 350 Yards   Par4

(Once again, much of what you see was land relatively clean, used only to farm corn and fruit trees. From high above, you can boldly fly the centerline rock pinnacle to set up an approach to a greensite set atop an existing flat. We worked the rock through the fairway long right but much what you see was there. Wide, with plenty of room off the tee, it is one of the easier tee shots on an otherwise demanding set of holes.)






John Kirk

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2011, 01:48:29 AM »
Brian,

Thanks for sharing.  Those look very nice.


Matt_Cohn

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 02:20:39 AM »
That is so #$%^ing awesome!

Derek Dirksen

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 04:22:21 AM »
Looks great!!!

David Whitmer

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2011, 06:07:13 AM »
I don't recall seeing anything like that before. What a unique and cool-looking golf course.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2011, 06:52:11 AM »
Brian,

That topography is simply wild. I looked at the club's website and could not tell where this is in China as the map is in Chinese. What is the closest airport? Your journey in China reminds me of the film The Horse Boy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkT_GndKtE

Do you have a Blog about your journeys in China?

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2011, 10:08:12 PM »
It looks amazing.  There are quite a few things on Google about this course.  It is a 54 hole complex, not sure who the architects are but I saw that one has grass faced bunkers and is a completely different style.

The Stone Forest or Shilin (Chinese: 石林; pinyin: Shílín) is a notable set of karst formations located in Shilin Yi Autonomous County, Yunnan Province, People's Republic of China, approximately 120 kilometres (75 mi) from the provincial capital Kunming. The tall rocks seem to emanate from the ground in the manner of stalagmites, with many looking like petrified trees thereby creating the illusion of a forest made of stone. Since 2007, two parts of the site, the Naigu Stone Forest (乃古石林) and Suogeyi Village (所各邑村), have been UNESCO World Heritage Sites as part of the South China Karst.

http://www.stoneforestgolf.com/en/main.php?type=1&sub=2

Ryan Admussen

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2011, 10:22:02 PM »
It looks amazing.  There are quite a few things on Google about this course.  It is a 54 hole complex, not sure who the architects are but I saw that one has grass faced bunkers and is a completely different style.

The architect started this thread, Curley/Schmidt

paul cowley

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2011, 11:04:54 PM »


The project looks great Brian....hope to  see you in Beijing around the 16th.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 12:00:16 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jud_T

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2011, 06:19:00 AM »
Brian,

Great to have you contributing here.  I'm guessing you got a lot more out of this experience than a boatload of frequent flier miles ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adam Clayman

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2011, 07:10:52 AM »
Thanks Brian.

If I might, I'd like to switch gears on you a bit and ask what it was like working in China?

Was the language barrier an issue? The culture?

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tony Ristola

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2011, 07:41:22 AM »
First saw the photos and thought exactly what was in the OP... it looked like one of those paintings you'd see advertised in the golf magazines from the 70's. Looks dramatic, can't speak to the playability, but having spent years in Scandinavia, I'd developed a fine tuned dislike of rock outcroppings, as they have them in play way too often. Ricochet golf wasn't a strong suit.

Hope this is a success for the client.

.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 07:44:51 AM by Tony Ristola »

Ryan Farrow

Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2011, 08:48:13 AM »
All,

just thought I would respond to a few questions, while I remind Brian that he needs to respond to his own thread.

About getting to the course, currently all flights to Kunming go through Kunming Wujiaba International Airport, and the course is about a 1 hour and 30 minute drive. Kunming itself is a great city and enjoys a temperate year round climate....mid 70's most of the year!

Apparently the new airport will open up in Jan. 2012 about 20 KM east of the city and will be the 4th largest airport in China. There will be plenty of direct flights to Kunming daily from all major cities in China, as well as Hong Kong. For China, its an easily accessible course now, and it will only improve.


Mike,

Brian does not have a blog, but we just launched our new twitter page that we will keep up to date weekly with some chinglish, food, and golf course pictures and anything else odd that comes up....

Here is a link to our page:

http://www.twitter.com/schmidtcurley

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2011, 11:22:38 AM »
It looks amazing.  There are quite a few things on Google about this course.  It is a 54 hole complex, not sure who the architects are but I saw that one has grass faced bunkers and is a completely different style.

The architect started this thread, Curley/Schmidt

All 54 holes?

Mac Plumart

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2011, 02:57:16 PM »
This is the first course in China that I've seen that makes me want to get off my lazy butt and get over there to play golf.  I don't know if in the end I'd like playing it with all the rock, but it just as easily could turn out to be super fun.  And it looks totally stunning!  Nice work!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kirk

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 08:04:32 PM »
What a dreamy site to work on.  There has to be some "architect envy" among our members.  Brian or Ryan, how's the soil?  Can you walk the course?

Ian Andrew

Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2011, 10:22:12 PM »
There has to be some "architect envy" among our members.

John,

We envy anyone with work :  )


Brian and Ryan,

What a great site that must have been to work on.
Were any features removed to make a hole work, or does it all fall between the formations?

I don't think I can think of a course that looks quite like that.

Brian Curley

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2011, 01:24:07 AM »
 I responded earlier but it was lost in cyber-space .............my luck as I have the tying skills of a one armed man......maybe.

Walkable? Kinda/sorta. Lots of connections are very good- maybe 80% on each course . I was more concerned about not creating bad holes and I new I would end up with few long green to tee connections. It is all fine however as the way you play is caddies  ride the back of the cart and bring you clubs ( as is the case at a number of clubs). You can  have them drive as you walk , ride when needed. I like the method and I consider the experience to be a good walk on most every hole. With a site like this  ( elevation and rock) it is a given there are going to be some issues. I think we did a great job in that category. We built it with our construction management team ( Flagstick)  led by Boyd Bolte as well as Alex Huang and Ray Scofield at the end. They did a great job, especially with cart paths that weave through the   formations with ease.

The stone formations were very difficult to deal with at times. You can tell what was "there" vs. what was exposed by the color. The old stuff is dark and multi-colored , the new stone on the white side. We were told we could do a lot of blasting but that did not last long so I had to stay on my toes and constantly shift and move. The topo ( as is the case on most sites in China) was poor so it took a lot of on-site  manipulation and reaction..........our goal was to just make it playable and add a bit here and there. It was rare that we needed to do much at main landing areas - I spent much of my time finding the best green sites/backdrops and the easiest landing areas with the least rock and /or cross slope. That was a huge task.

As for playability, we have kicked around a local rule that allows a free drop backwards  in line with the hole if you feel the ball is coming back in your teeth.  Not sure how they stand at the moment. The thing about China is they give you a lot of freedom as they respect your design skills ( or their lack of) but it is difficult to tell them how to run things.The reality is the stone is rarely in play if you are on turf but the situation can arise at times.  We have played a few rounds and only once has this been needed ( and mainly because the caddie brought the wrong club). The photos ( by our in- house Ansel Adams ,Ryan Farrow) are "artsy" and a bit misleading with focus on the stone rather than the turf areas. There is width and rarely a condition that is too tight given the yardage you are asked to deal with.

Working in China.........different- but , for us, it is the norm. Lots of wacky stuff, wacky rules, wacky changes etc. so you have to learn to roll with the punches. You learn to say "May  wan tee" a lot ( no problem) and move on. Hit a lot of singles and know the home runs will come in time. It would drive an "every feature on a precise  plan- designer" crazy........You are never certain ; even after a hole is built it can move. Construction is always a crap-shoot.......as much as you may scream and yell, often the owner's rep you are dealing with may be in with the contractor so you need to mind what you say and who you say it to. I learned a long time ago to never ask a question I didn't already know the answer to...............just beware of the unknown and where it may lead.

Lots of great work going on now. The Weiskopf course in Wanning on Hainan Island is excellent on a spectacular site. Lots of really  bad stuff as well but that is changing quickly as a heap of good designers are in the three point stance at the border, ready for the charge. I honestly think there will be a BUNCH of world-class courses in no time. Things move  FAST  and the appetite for quality is gaining all the time.  More events will come and along with that a lot of attention. We have the World Cup this November at Mission Hills in Haikou and there are more and more planned..........who said "follow the money"?

Ian- You are welcome back anytime!


Lester George

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2011, 09:17:50 AM »

Brian,

You should be proud of this.  Great architecture on what appears to be an extraordinary site.  I like your comments about playability and walking and I understand (more than the last time we spoke) more about the challenges over there.  There is not an architect alive who wouldn't love to get his hands on this kind of site.  What you did here will be one of your flagship courses for a long time.
Congratulations!!!  Hope to see you in Denver?

Lester

Jeremy Aisenberg

Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2011, 09:33:16 AM »
Brian - looks amazing.  Let's sneak over there the next time Hank and I come over to Mission Hills Haikou!  Lester, you should join us!!

Rob Miller

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2012, 10:33:42 AM »
I'm traveling through Kunming this week and made a stop at Stone Forest.  Course closed indefinitely for "government inspection."  Three courses, great design, built without government approval?  Only in China.

Jackson C

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2012, 01:18:33 PM »
Brian,

Can you share some pictures of what the site looked like before the course was laid out?
The course looks spectacular, but to my eye, perhaps because it is so unique, it doesn't look natural to me.

"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Garland Bayley

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2012, 08:03:30 PM »
Sure looks better than it would have when it was planted in corn.
;)

Don't know how I missed this thread first time it was on the first page.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JWL

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Re: Stone Forest International C.C.
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2012, 10:50:30 PM »
Brian
As I told you in Lee's kitchen, I thought the photos of the course looked phenomenal    Thanks for the insights as it developed.     Hope the lesson has helped.  Cheers  :)