Dream Arena by Ron Garl

[Bill_McBride]

Ron did Amen Corner at Golden Ocala several years ago. He also wrote an article about designing replica courses maybe 10 years back as well.

I read that this Thailand project has already sold 600 of 1000 memberships.

Both holes were on my "sneak on" route growing up at adjacent Augusta CC

Was that actually possible once upon a time?

very much so in the summer.
The usual loop was 13, 14,11,12
I once played the entire back nine in the middle of the day-not walking up on 18 and dropping a drive on 10.
never saw a soul but could hear vehichles driving around working.
Was hitting it so good I couldn't quit-no cups or flags and nonoverseeded bermuda greens, but I knew where the Sunday pins where!

When I was a 17-year old college freshman we sneaked on San Francisco Golf Club.  This was with a true ne'er-do-well I met my first week at City College.  We pitched our bags over the chain link fence down by the seventh green and played until the maintenance staff threw us back over the fence.

Today that fence is probably electrified.

[Bill_McBride]

The ENTIRE back 9 is Augusta's back nine.

Other's I recognize:

#1- Oakmont's 3rd
#2- Pebble's 18th
#3- Sawgrass 17th
#4- Doral's 18th
#5- Postage Stamp?
#6- TOC Road hole
#7- Bethpage Black 4th
#8- Winged Foot West  10th
#9- 10th at the Brabazon Belfry course

#6 as a Road Hole is a stretch with no sheds, but that does look like a road!

[Doug Sobieski]

The ENTIRE back 9 is Augusta's back nine.

Other's I recognize:

#1- Oakmont's 3rd
#2- Pebble's 18th
#3- Sawgrass 17th
#4- Doral's 18th
#5- Postage Stamp?
#6- TOC Road hole
#7- Bethpage Black 4th
#8- Winged Foot West  10th
#9- 10th at the Brabazon Belfry course

I'm fairly certain #2 is intended to be #6 at Bay Hill, although the curvature of the hole differs significantly. The bunker positioning is spot on.

[Tom_Doak]

The sole reason I was hesitant to get involved with Old Macdonald was that I understood it was only one step away from this, although it was one very big step, in my opinion.

I would call this project "non-architecture".  It may be exactly what the client wants and what the people of Thailand want [or deserve].  And Ron Garl may or may not be a nice guy.  But is it really architecture at all if you just take a plan from somewhere else and lay it over your site and make no attempt to improve upon it or even adapt it to the terrain you have to work with?  As far as I can tell, all that's been done is to pick some famous holes and build something that looks like them ... and so far, all we've heard is that the course looks like these holes in two dimensions.  It would be more impressive if he actually managed to reproduce the third dimension, but even so, it still wouldn't be architecture, in my book.

[Garland Bayley]

... it still wouldn't be architecture, in my book.

Would it be civil engineering? Or just construction?

[jeffwarne]

The sole reason I was hesitant to get involved with Old Macdonald was that I understood it was only one step away from this, although it was one very big step, in my opinion. (cause that hole at yeaman's doesn't even sniff the same topography)

I would call this project "non-architecture".  It may be exactly what the client wants and what the people of Thailand want [or deserve].  And Ron Garl may or may not be a nice guy.  But is it really architecture at all if you just take a plan from somewhere else and lay it over your site and make no attempt to improve upon it or even adapt it to the terrain you have to work with?  As far as I can tell, all that's been done is to pick some famous holes and build something that looks like them ... and so far, all we've heard is that the course looks like these holes in two dimensions.  It would be more impressive if he actually managed to reproduce the third dimension, but even so, it still wouldn't be architecture, in my book.

It's interesting that the line is always drawn (in all industries)....... just above where someone is standing.

Is a template any different than "building a hole that looks like them"
If we build it perfectly in three dimensions it's a copy that no on respects (well maybe Tom Doak), if it's in two dimensions it's no good according to Tom Doak, but how is that different than a template?
I mean is the Alps hole at Yeamans (one of my favorite courses) any more than a two dimensional (flat) hole with an elevated green?
I didn't state that very well, but what I'm saying is , is the copy of 13 at augusta, even without the exact same topography, no worse than comparing the Alps at Yeamans to the original?

Obviously Tom Doak spent a lot of years grinding it out and sticking to his ideals while getting minimal prime opportunities (which is incredibly commendable) and ultimately it paid off to the point where he is the premier architect out there, and even in a nasty golf depression is able to get and do high quality work on prime sites. I'm guessing the other 95% are doing what it takes to keep the doors open and their associates fed.

With all the "original" crap that's been built in the last 40 years, I'd say an unoriginal copy of a great course isn't the end of the world.
I just wish he'd built the front nine from ANGC instead of the tribute to Florida.

Edit:If the general concensus in Thailand is that it's a fun and enjoyable course, and the course is a financial success due to its' popularity with players, does it matter that it's not considered "architecture" by some beard pullers.
And if I build  a colonial home, is it not "architecture" if someone spots a very similar design in Boston?
Cause last I checked, people always tell me they love the architecture style of my house, yet I had an architect copy the exterior out of a magazine (he must've needed the work too). Who knew i didn't need an architect (cause it's not architecture)

[Mark McKeever]

Given where the water is located throughout on the golf course, I feel like reproducing some of these elevation changes may be difficult on the back nine to give the severity of Augusta.  Hopefully somone can play it soon and let us all know.

Mark

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I'm a bit disappointed in your reaction and maybe I'm just misunderstanding you:

You stated, "But is it really architecture at all if you just take a plan from somewhere else and lay it over your site and make no attempt to improve upon it or even adapt it to the terrain you have to work with?"

You seem to be saying that Ron didn't do either, yet you also seem to be saying further on that you haven't seen it in person. Wouldn't you expect that someone at least visit the site of a design you did before criticizing it, especially where the question of improving on the original and/or adapting it to the terrain are important aspects of the judging of it? So why aren't you asking this of yourself?

"As far as I can tell, all that's been done is to pick some famous holes and build something that looks like them ... and so far, all we've heard is that the course looks like these holes in two dimensions.  It would be more impressive if he actually managed to reproduce the third dimension, but even so, it still wouldn't be architecture, in my book."

I disagree with that. This isn't a case of building the Empire State Building on a different plot of land... that would be easy and one could literally follow the original blueprints in doing so. To reproduce an entire nine holes of golf in the same routing, with the same features and with the same actual look of the original on different terrain would be an absolutely major architectural and engineering accomplishment. You know how difficult it is to "restore" a course to its original condition and that with the exact same land, original blueprints and even photographs of what it looked like. Are you now saying that isn't architecture? This is far beyond restoration and I think is worth a careful look before judging it in any manner...

[Bill_Yates]

Ron has done this very successfully before.  I played his Wooden Sticks Golf Club in Uxbridge, Ontario. It includes holes "inspired by" The Old Course, Oakmont, Carnoustie, TPC Sawgrass, Pine Valley, and Troon.

For example, the opening hole (inspired by #3 at Oakmont) looks nothing like the real thing and neither does the terrain. The watermark on the score card simply says "Church Pew Bunker Feature: Oakmont." 

He is certainly not trying to stake any creative claims, nor is he simply cutting and pasting.  It's a great course and fun to play.  And since golf is a mind game, as a player it's exciting looking forward to being able to play a shot similar to one you would play at "The Postage Stamp," "The Road Hole" or the 17th at TPC Sawgrass.

[Jason Connor]

Is #4 Doral or every finishing hole on the PGA tour?  I couldn't tell.

Seriously, I have no problem with this.  Especially as intro to golf in a developing country, why not share with them the best the game has to offer?

And besides.  If anyone built this outside [insert large American city here] it would be well received by the general golf public.

[Tim Leahy]

It may not be original but I would love to play it. I have walked Augusta and will most likely never get to play there, but I could at least play a replica somewhere else. I think it is a great idea.
I would love to see the Old Course rebuilt in it's entirety somewhere in the US.
Maybe the designer can take that on next.

[Tim Nugent]

".... And since golf is a mind game, as a player it's exciting looking forward to being able to play a shot similar to one you would play at "The Postage Stamp,""

It would be hard to creating a shot similar to the one you would play at the Postage Stamp.
1st off, the anticipation builds as you playup the preceeding hole #7 and look off to right and have to finish out knowing what comes next. Walking past, or if you are unlucky like my playing partner Bob Cupp, playing out of the Stamps rightside bunker, you realize just how far below the green it really is.
2nd, the 7th is relatively protected from the wind coming of the sea but the high perch of the 8th tee lets you really feel it.  And you know that it is going to have a direct effect on your ball.

The hardest thing on these replica courses is that it is rare that you get the terrain and the wind you get at the original.  My guess is that these have Bermuda greens, not the slick bent/poa of some of the courses or the fescue of others.  The same high lob that might stick on this version might just hop off the original.

Kinda like an Elvis impersonator, he looks and sounds pretty much like the real thing but the majic just isn't there.

[Bill_McBride]

I would love to see the Old Course rebuilt in it's entirety somewhere in the US.

That one you can play, Tim.  Nicklaus built it years ago, the "New Course" at Grand Cypress in Orlando.  Big double greens and a couple of Swilken Burn-style bridges are the more obvious homage elements.  I'd rather play it than any of the 27 holes on the Grand Cypress layout but it has little of the F&F you'd associate with the real thing.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

I agree with Mr. Doak

If you are going to be an architect, design something. Copying is not designing.

If you are going to be an artist, draw or paint something. Copying is not painting. If you copy the Mona Lisa, can you put your name on it?

I keep hearing and reading about "my next golf course is going to have a copy of "16th hole somewhere"
That is not architecture.

Why does literature penalize plagerism? Is copying a design any different>

[Peter Pallotta]

Dick - intellectually I know that you and Tom D and Phillipe are right; and philosophically I have to agree with you all about architecture/design. But, like Bill Y, I played Wooden Sticks once -- and you know, it was a lot of fun for me.  I have never played any of the world famous courses, and I can't compare the replicas to the originals -- but, e.g. I'd never hit to a fairway so wide or a green so big as I did at the replica of the 18th at TOC; and I'd never hit to a true island green that is the 17th at Sawgrass; and the replica of the 13th at August left me with kind of/sort of the same feeling/choice those playing the Masters have, i.e. I could reach it in two, but I have to get past the creek that fronts the green; and when I did get into the "Church Pews" I got a terrible lie and struggled to get out.  Anyway, just to say - it may be poor architecture in many ways, but I understand why people will enjoy it.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Philip:

To date, I don't believe a single person who has commented on this thread has actually been to Thailand to see the golf course.  In fact, we don't know for certain that it even exists, except for the drawing in the first post.  So what makes you believe your criticism (or fawning) is any more grounded in fact than anyone else's?

Garland's comment gets to the point of my criticism.  Who needs an architect to do this?  Why not just take the topo maps and a GPS and cut out the guy with the Rolex?  If you did manage to get it right, that would be a feat of construction, or engineering.  But not of design.

[jeffwarne]

I agree with Mr. Doak

If you are going to be an architect, design something. Copying is not designing.

If you are going to be an artist, draw or paint something. Copying is not painting. If you copy the Mona Lisa, can you put your name on it?

I keep hearing and reading about "my next golf course is going to have a copy of "16th hole somewhere"
That is not architecture.

Why does literature penalize plagerism? Is copying a design any different>

Dick,
It's very hard to argue with your statements and I agree to some degree.
But we have template holes we worship at, and tribute courses with cute names. (INHO opinion golf is better off with both as there are some great holes and courses in that category)
We also have a lot of noncopy crap-everywhere. Housing projects, bunker right-bunker left.Condos left, lake right. Fescue right and left. Obligatory 18th holes at TPC and 100 other places-)
Sure we'd all like to see original great stuff like we've been priviledged to see spring back up in the last 15 years, but there's also been plenty of garbage.
Those who hate "copies" can skip those courses (of course they'll have to define what a "step below" tribute and templates are)
Those of us who hate original crappy courses that are ironically all the same (hit it down the middle-can skip those.
Big World theory.

[jeffwarne]

Philip:

To date, I don't believe a single person who has commented on this thread has actually been to Thailand to see the golf course.  In fact, we don't know for certain that it even exists, except for the drawing in the first post.  So what makes you believe your criticism (or fawning) is any more grounded in fact than anyone else's?

Garland's comment gets to the point of my criticism.  Who needs an architect to do this?  Why not just take the topo maps and a GPS and cut out the guy with the Rolex?  If you did manage to get it right, that would be a feat of construction, or engineering.  But not of design.

Tom,
In an idealistic world, you and Dick are of course right.

but with that logic, why hire an architect for a restoration?
I have a feeling more than a few architects shudder when that conclusion can be drawn for from your comments above.

[Roger Wolfe]

The sole reason I was hesitant to get involved with Old Macdonald was that I understood it was only one step away from this, although it was one very big step, in my opinion.

I would call this project "non-architecture".  It may be exactly what the client wants and what the people of Thailand want [or deserve].  And Ron Garl may or may not be a nice guy.  But is it really architecture at all if you just take a plan from somewhere else and lay it over your site and make no attempt to improve upon it or even adapt it to the terrain you have to work with?  As far as I can tell, all that's been done is to pick some famous holes and build something that looks like them ... and so far, all we've heard is that the course looks like these holes in two dimensions.  It would be more impressive if he actually managed to reproduce the third dimension, but even so, it still wouldn't be architecture, in my book.

I have learned in my brief career that the routing/imagination/aesthetics of GCA is just a small part of the profession.  Giving the client holes that look like TPC and Augusta might have been a requirement to take the job... but drainage, agronomy, irrigation and reproducing these holes at the lowest cost possible is a talent that deserves credit, too.  Maybe "non-creative architecture" is a good name for Mr. Garl's role at Dream Arena.

[Ben Voelker]

I don't necessarily have an opinion about this either way.  But I live in Bangkok and could add a bit to the speculation.

The course is to be part of the Royal Gems City development, which in a suburb north of Bangkok.  There is NO elevation change in and around Bangkok, think Houston. I don't see any way the terrain at Augusta could be replicated here and if it somehow was, it would truly be an engineering marvel.

I think this is something that would do very well here.  As someone has mentioned previously, golf is not high on the list of Thailand's strengths, at least according to the preferences of this DG.  Golf here is far more about the overall experience than pure golf.  Caddies are basically mandatory and they are always tiny, cute Thai women who have never played golf, but are well trained and have decent knowledge of the game.

My wife is half Thai and I was going to play golf with her uncle on a trip to the resort area Hua Hin.  I was hoping to play Royal Hua Hin, which is supposed to be a pretty good course designed by an Englishman in the 1920's.  We didn't play there because it is "old and not very nice".  Right or wrong, I think that's a pretty good summary of the Thai attitude about golf.

[Brian_Ewen]

The ENTIRE back 9 is Augusta's back nine.

Other's I recognize:

#1- Oakmont's 3rd
#2- Pebble's 18th
#3- Sawgrass 17th
#4- Doral's 18th
#5- Postage Stamp?
#6- TOC Road hole
#7- Bethpage Black 4th
#8- Winged Foot West  10th
#9- 10th at the Brabazon Belfry course

I thought No.2 was Doral, and No.4 was Sawgrass 18th ?

By the way, have any of you ripping this course ever been to Thailand?  You do know that Thailand is like, the 7th circle of debauchery and instant gratification right?  This course fits there. 

Philip:
To date, I don't believe a single person who has commented on this thread has actually been to Thailand to see the golf course.

I have been golfing in Thailand since 1988, and now live here half the year.

This gives the average golfer in Thailand the opportunity to experience some of the best holes in America.

I dont think there is an average golfer in Thailand.

Your either rich or a tourist.

Caddies are basically mandatory and they are always tiny, cute Thai women who have never played golf, but are well trained and have decent knowledge of the game.

Maybe 30 years ago !

My wife is half Thai and I was going to play golf with her uncle on a trip to the resort area Hua Hin.  I was hoping to play Royal Hua Hin, which is supposed to be a pretty good course designed by an Englishman in the 1920's.  We didn't play there because it is "old and not very nice".  Right or wrong, I think that's a pretty good summary of the Thai attitude about golf.

Royal Hua Hin was designed by AO Robbins, a Scottish railway engineer, and is one of my favourite places to play golf in the world.

[Brian_Ewen]

[Don_Mahaffey]

They should have named it Old Mackenzie.

[Mike_Young]

If you are going to be an architect, design something. Copying is not designing.

If you are going to be an artist, draw or paint something. Copying is not painting. If you copy the Mona Lisa, can you put your name on it?

I keep hearing and reading about "my next golf course is going to have a copy of "16th hole somewhere"
That is not architecture.

I think the same when I see someone copy the original drawings of course's greens instead of "finding" what was actually there and recapturing...yet we call it restoration....oh well....

[Eric Smith]

Right now I'm imagining (wishing...hoping, call it what you want) that there are a few lucky bastards out there who don't spend much, if any, time on the internet, having to read the little piles of poop written about their work or maybe their friend's work. These lucky bastards get to work in the field of golf course architecture and get paid for it by clients who want to build new golf courses, maybe certain kinds of golf courses and I am imagining how happy the clients must be to see their golf course dreams become reality. So, before I hit the hay, I'm raising my glass of 2% to toast all of the lucky bastards out there making their clients happy. Here's hoping they make a shitload of golfers happy in the process. Keep on keeping on, you lucky bastards!