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Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Our club is about to embark on a size-able restoration this spring.  We decided to do as much of the work with our own "in-house" crew as possible and even went as far as to purchase our own construction equipment.

We obviously weighed our options and decided that for US, it makes sense.  We are projecting considerable savings vs. hiring a contractor and expect the final product to be just as good, if not better!

What are your experiences?  What might be your list of pro's and con's for either side? 

Also, has anybody ever done an irrigation project in house?  I'd be interested to hear your experiences with that too!

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian, some Pros may be that you have greater control over the budget, schedule, quality of matrials and installation.
         some Cons are that you have no one to blame when the budget, schedule, quality of matrials and installation  go aschew.

It's like the old Charlie Brown dilemma, "catch it, you're a hero, miss it, you're a goat".
One word of advise, don't forget that you have to still maintain the golf course while you do your side job.
And remember, you will be asking your workers to operate outside their comfort zone and therefore the learning curve will be steep.
I hope your superintendant has been down this road before or at least has a multi-year no-trade clause in his contract.:)
Coasting is a downhill process

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian - I work for a golf course contractor. Before taking this job a year ago, I was about the take a job at Southern Hills in Tulsa, OK where they do their work in house.

Sometimes a club will have people capable of operating some of the construction equipment, but thats not normally the case, even if they have a rusted backhoe in their dump already. What happens occasionally is that I will dig all the trenches for new irrigation and the course staff will install the pipe and wiring, or some variation on that. This way they dont have to worry about equipment or efficient operators (which we supply and get paid for), but will save a lot on outside labor and installation costs, plus we are nearby to answer questions (which they will have!)

Doing the project in house will probably save you money, but its probably going to take longer, and quality is always questionable. If you are buying dozers or an excavator of any size w knuckle buckets and the whole 9 yards, I hope you have someone with lots of construction experience, because you can do a lot of expensive damage to an existing course with these things, if you dont know exactly what you are doing! Also, who will be cutting your greens while all your best guys will be playing construction?!

Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps I should have included that we are hiring outside shapers to the bulk of the heavy lifting... although I'm hoping that by the end of the project we can be mostly on our own.  Also, the work will mostly be done in the early spring and fall and we are adding an entire crew of laborers to be dedicated specifically to the project, so cutting greens wont be an issue!  I don't expect things to move slowly, in fact part of the reason we decided to go without a contractor was that we felt it gave us the ability to set our own pace.  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 05:47:36 PM by Brian Chapin »

Phil_the_Author

The most important aspect are the answers to the questions, "How humble is the Superintendent and Does he think that he really is an architect in waiting?"

Listen to the architect and follow his directions! Only then will he deserve a raise... :)

Sorry Brian... couldn't help myself! Remember to feed that puppy of yours...

By the way, how about making the announcement for those on gca.com about the NEW NAME of the club!?!

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian, your bringing a shaper(s)? Well, why didn't you say so. Now I hope this guy is really experienced and has a history of working on his own.  Many will call themselves a Shaper but really are just guys who can operate and have worked on some golf course projects. And most shaers still had a construction superintendent doing all the planning and babysitting.  If you are lucky enough to get an "old hand" your next task is to determine who will be the leader.  It may be the shaper and his wealth of expewrience or it may be the Super who is used to being in control.  In any event, I would have a third (club president, greens chairman etc.) who has final "tie-breaking/peace-making" authority.
Finally, I hope you have an architect.
What you really need is an architect who can shape (and design/install irrigation)  :)

Phillip, that too!
Coasting is a downhill process

Don_Mahaffey

The most important thing is to stay grounded and honest about the entire project. Absolutely nothing wrong with taking it on yourselves as long as your honest enough to ask for help if needed.
My personal opinion is you would save money having the right architect directing the project and some construction management help.
Sort of a hybrid approach where you use the resources you have but bring in some expertise. Architects do a lot more than wax poetically about shot values and shadows. Getting quantities dead nuts and setting a time line is all part of a successful and cost effective renovation. I'm not an architect nor did I sleep at the holiday inn last night but I have learned a few thing as a super that directed quite a few in house projects.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
You get what you pay for.

IMHO, the best shapers are tied to the best architects and construction companies.

I saw it first hand, where we had an over bearing superintendent who hired his own architect who was a yes man and then did the majority of the work in house.  The result is horrid.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don, who knows, maybe they have a Holiday Inn right down the street and everyone can stay there :)  Seriously, great advice.  Pride goith before the Fall (or something to that effect).
Coasting is a downhill process

Andy Mitchell

My home course, Thornblade Club, in Greenville, SC just undertook a major renovation of its golf course from June until November of 2010.  We actually used 3 seperate contractors, a method recommended by the course architect, Tom Fazio and Tom Marzolf.  We had an excellent experience, not the mention the work was completed on time and under budget.  Our in house staff assisted the contractors during the work. 

Andy Mitchell

Actually... Below is the article that was written about the project in Golf Business.

Three Is the Magic Number
Working with a triumvirate of course builders, Thornblade Club completed a renovation project quickly and cost-effectively

By Trent Bouts
Published: October 2010, Golf Business

Two for the price of one is always a good deal, but Thornblade Club drove an even better bargain by effectively locking in three-for-one pricing on a recent renovation project. The Greenville, South Carolina-based club used three separate contractors—all working simultaneously on seven-, six- and five-hole sections of the course—to overhaul the greens and tees of the layout that co-hosts the Nationwide Tour’s BMW Charity Classic.

Conventional wisdom holds that what might be viewed as “boutique” contracting (using multiple contractors simultaneously on segments of a larger project) is more expensive than one-stop shopping. But Thornblade’s experience indicates that given the current economic climate, the old economies of scale no longer apply. It also suggests this may be a prime time for course owners to invest in updating their primary asset, particularly if they aren’t averse to trying creative approaches to their projects.

Pricing has certainly come down among contractors, many of whom are desperate for work and any kind of cash flow to keep gas in the corporate tank. In fact, Tom Marzolf, senior design associate for Fazio Golf Course Designers, says that architects’ and builders’ willingness to reduce profit margins is leading to “pricing we haven’t seen since 2000 to 2001.”

That trend certainly played in Thornblade’s favor, enabling the club to get not only a better price but a quicker timetable as well for its renovation. Somewhat surprisingly, it also reduced risks and led to a greater concentration of expertise, even if it caused a bit of initial anxiety.

“In my mind I thought ‘no way,’” recounts Patricia Calder, general manager of Thornblade. “Then I looked to my course superintendent and said that if he was comfortable with it, we should go with that plan.”

Admittedly, there was a good deal of logistical work required during the bidding and contracting process to ensure the three contractors were, in the words of Calder, “comparing apples to apples.” Thornblade representatives asked each contractor to quote for a section of the project and also for the entire job, and from those numbers elected to try the three-pronged strategy.

Soon after, the onus shifted to Randy Long, superintendent of Thornblade, who was responsible for overseeing the coordination of three staging areas, three times the amount of equipment and three construction foremen, all the while knowing that the 10-week window from start to the August 15 seeding date was non-negotiable.

“It was hectic, really frenetic,” Long says. “But I think it went extremely well.”

Aside from Long’s lengthy experience and enthusiasm for construction, a significant factor in Thornblade being able to effectively manage the logistics was the property’s geography. Set in an upscale residential neighborhood with multiple access points, the course was easily compartmentalized to minimize crossover traffic and confusion between contractors.

“Everyone did a great job,” Calder says. “We feel we got the work done sooner than we might have with just one contractor, and we certainly felt that having three contractors on the property ameliorated any risk. If one contractor had fallen behind, we could have called in help from the others to pick up the slack. But that didn’t happen.”

In addition to the “insurance” that three contractors offered, Thornblade benefitted from a greater concentration of expertise. Each group brought fewer people than if the entire job had been theirs, but each still had to assemble a core group of key personnel. Consequently, no one was spread too thin or ran the risk of running out of steam.

“We got more manpower and more equipment for our money,” Long notes.

Blake Bickford, who supervised construction on site for Fazio Golf Course Designers, says using multiple contractors in the heat of summer also increased efficiency. “Your production is better because the guys are fresh and more efficient,” he says. “That also reduces the need for overtime, which can drive up costs.”

In the end, the combined bill for three separate contractors performing sections was just 6 percent more than their average for the entire job. Numbers like that and a soft market are reasons Marzolf predicts more course operators—especially those at established facilities with stable finances and with an eye to the time when the economy rebounds—will consider this type of strategy in the future.

“That was one of the main factors in the club deciding to go ahead with the renovation now,” Calder says. “We didn’t want to wait until things improve, then shut down while the work got done. By doing it now, we’ll have the golf course that people will want to play when the recovery comes.”

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
As I see it there are two issues, firstly the design and secondly the build. A super might well be able to do the build as well if not better than a contractor who is unfamiliar with the course/agronomy etc but if the plan is poorly conceived in the first place then the exercise is likely to fail. Not sure if you were suggesting that the super was going to be responsible for deciding what was going to be done but I've seen work done on a number of courses I've been a member of, and done by the greenkeeping staff (including design) with a fair bit of mixed results. At best the results have been good if not great but at worst the result has been awful, not necessarily in terms of build quality but in terms of the design.

Basically, you don't call a plumber to fix your electrics do you.

Niall

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think this stuff is definitely site and club specific.  I have seen a hundred supts who have never been around construction that want to "play" with it and the board doesn't know the difference between their normal day to day job and a construction site.  So if you have a supt with construction and grow-in experience then that is one thing...if not...well that's another.  If you have a committee or green chair or supt that wants a method whereby his "design" can be blessed and his ass covered then don't dare use this method.
And lastly, IMHO if it is a restoration and the course has not had major earth moving changes then there is no need for dozers and major equipment in place....
And as for three contractors on site....that would scare the hell out of me...it is too easy to find one contractor that can find all the labor and machinery he needs to do a project today...in theory you could find enough people to have a contractor on each hole.  AND  I don't think you can rebuild 18 greens with that many shapers and have the same results as with one shaper....if you have to do it that way then have one guy on greens, one on tees and one on bunkers....BUT whatever you do, if the board or green chair or supt has the ability to overide the approved plan....don't do it...I been watching that for over a year....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0

Good Luck! 

But I must say, you are on a very slippery slope.  This kind of thing can blow up in your face.  I have seen many of them go well, but it is entirely based on the Supers experience and a lot of luck, especially using outside help. 

Lester

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
We did a restoration in house over the course of six years. The results were great as many can attest. Putting in a new irrigation system and pump house we hired outside contractors, we would have never been able to handle the project inhouse...RHE

Brian Chapin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim Urbina is the architect associated with the project.  We are 100% confident in his abilities to lead the project in the right direction.  In fact it was he who really encouraged us to consider an "in-house" crew rather than a contractor.  He will also be selecting the shapers. 

At first I was a bit nervous about taking on the project without a contractor.  However, as the planning stages have progressed, the owner has made significant investments in equipment and man-power to get the project done without sacrificing the quality of the work or the regular maintenance of the golf course.

I have high expectations for the project.  Weather permitting we will be starting in a few weeks, and I'll keep everyone posted as we progress.

Phil_the_Author

Brian,

And the name of the club/course? :)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian,
I knew I knew that name....met you at your course a few months ago  and played with a few guys....have fun....nice course....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don_Mahaffey

Brian,
Letting everyone know your in-house crew will be led by Jim would have reduced the responses by half or more. Your in good hands.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 09:50:12 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0

Jim will do a good job for you.  I no longer think you are on a slippery slope. 

There are just so many wanna bees out there I always advise caution. 

Lester

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brian,
Letting everyone know your in-house crew will be led by Jim would have reduced the responses by half or more. Your in good hands.

DITTO, but by leaving that tidbit of info out, one can now compare and contrast the replies and just how important many feel having someone with a proven track record of "get 'R done" is. Plus, with Jim getting to select the shapers, one can assured that they will be on HIS page.
Coasting is a downhill process

Phil_the_Author

Since Brian hasn't said, he is the superintendent at the PARAMOUNT Country Club. This is the new name for what was the Dellwood Country Club located in New city, New York. It is  a very unknown and unheralded Tillinghast original design from the early 1920s... And Jim's major goal is to bring Tilly back! The owners (it is privately-owned) are thrilled to have Jim and are giving him free creative reign and backing it up with making certain that he gets everything he needs. This is a ver5y exciting project and if you had a 5-minute phone conversation with Brian about it you'd be amazed at the energy that he would generaqte with that call...

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
You are on the right track.

The projects we did last year at West Bend were done this way.

We hired a world class shaper, Kye Goalby, and did the finish work in house. This is a cost efficient way to do great work.

Kye is an architect as well. Having your architect do the shaping can make the difference between good work and great work.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0

Have an in house supervisor , if a sufficiently talented / educated as to the clubs desire is avaiable. Then hire the best outside contractors (preferably local) that you can afford.  Give them a budget and timetable and have at it. Definitely include your super in the mix, as he has to manage the results and understands the drainage, limitations of your irrigation system and what works at your site better than anyone else.   If you are lucky , his assistant can run the show while he is on the job .

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Put me in the "Use the Contractor" camp, even on small projects for these reasons:

It reduces project risks and increases the quality of the final product in almost all cases.  My experience is that many clubs see modest construction savings going in house, but you may very well spend more if problems occur.

Savings might top out at 15%, but overruns are unlimited.

Large contractors are doing small projects now at prices lower than ever before. 

In short, a good contractor pays for itself when unforeseen conditions arise.  These are particularly common in renovation projects, where you will probably run across many unknown buried projects of the past.

Why not do a small project correctly the first time?  It takes longer to do it wrong as it does to do it right, given that you’ll do it again.”

Superintendents often run into unexpected problems – both in construction and in member relationships.  Many superintendents who have been through it believe the cost of using architects and contractors is worth it to buffer you from your own club. 

Perhaps the best justification for using contractors on even the smallest renovation projects is that my clients rarely undertake large construction project the “second time” without using a contractor.  One superintendent told me he would have raised another million dollars to hire a contractor, rather than do it himself again. 

That statement pretty well sums up my feelings about using qualified golf course contractors on every project, and even puts a dollar value on it!  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach