THM! Alps - #5 Yale Golf Course 12th vs #12 St Enodoc 6th (Advances)

[Richard Choi]

You have till EOD (PST) Wed to cast your votes. Just state your preference on this thread. The voting is open to all. I highly recommend those who have played the holes to try to influence the voters as much as possible. I will tally the results on Thu and schedule the next round.

Seed #5

Yale Golf Course 12th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 400 yards

Why: From Ran - Since Green Keeper Scott Ramsey arrived here in 2003 and since Yale started spending the appropriate care and attention on this treasure of a golf course, this is the single most improved hole. Roger Rulewich did a fine job in re-creating the deep Alps bunker in front of the green and in rebuilding the bank before it. Set across tumbling land, this is one of thethree or fourfinestAlps holes in play today.
From Yale website - The narrow tee box opens up to a wider fairway, however the woods to the left and right will leave no shot to the elevated green. The second uphill shot is blind to a two terrace green with two traps in the front and a trap wide on left side of green. As with many of the other Yale holes, reaching the correct tier on the green is a must in order to make par or better.






Seed #12

St Enodoc 6th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 378 yards

Why: From Sean – It’s an unusual Alps in that the mound is further from the green than Prestwick's and the Himalaya Bunker (the other name for this type hole!) is incorporated into the dune.   However, it is a famous hole and the approach is not easy.  This hole also has the advantage of it being possible - ever so slightly possible, but possible, to gain a view of the green off the tee.

[Sean_A]

I must say Yale's Alps looks to be a superb hole adn if it doesn't dictate a lay-up off the tee I am inclined to call this one early: Yale. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

I must say Yale's Alps looks to be a superb hole adn if it doesn't dictate a lay-up off the tee I am inclined to call this one early: Yale. 

Ciao

Sean,
I found the Alps hole at Yale to be an interesting, well conceived golf hole.
It feels a bit less than a pure  Alps hole though and more of an uphill shot to a sunken green (a la 15 at Sleepy Hollow or any # of holes at The machrie)

I think anyone who plays the Alps hole at St. Enodoc will remember that hole vividly for the rest of their life.
The tee shot involves strategy as to how far, and how far left you dare to go to improve visibility and the fear factor of the dune on the second shot.
The second shot(if you driven anywhere but dangerously left) is simply one of the most memorable, knee buckling, leap of faith shots in golf (to a relatively small target). And it involves one of the most dramatic vertical hazards in golf, thus is far more representative of the name "Alps"

You said it yourself, terrain is important in golf and St. Enodoc gets the nod here based on terrain,strategy, and quality of the hole, despite the quality and interesting terrain of the hole at Yale.

[Mark Pearce]

I've only played the Yale version.  It's a really good hole in a run of good holes.  It was also one of the few pars I made in my round there, having taken 10 holes to get any feel for the speed of the greens at all.  It gets my vote.

[Bill_McBride]

It would be Yale if you had to have the played the hole to vote for it, but that hole at St Enodoc is breathtaking so I'll vote for it.

[jeffwarne]

It would be Yale if you had to have the played the hole to vote for it, but that hole at St Enodoc is breathtaking so I'll vote for it.

I'm not sure what the rules are.but having to have played the hole to vote for it (automatically making you vote against one you hadn't played) would seem a huge disadvantage to lesser known, remote courses.

[Tom Dunne]

Sean,

The Alps at Yale is a driver all the way. From the back tees, I consider it one of the most intimidating tee shots on the course--there's plenty of width, but it's a pretty long carry to reach the fairway.

Brian,

Sloppiness is not rewarded here. The approach is uphill and blind, and the green has two distinct tiers--high left, and a larger lower right section. You can't just flip a short-iron up there and expect an automatic two-putt if your ball finds the wrong tier. To paraphrase Ran's review, a scratch man can hit 14 greens in regulation at Yale and not break 80. I've seen it happen.

I haven't played St. Enodoc, so I'll abstain from voting.

[Bill_McBride]

It would be Yale if you had to have the played the hole to vote for it, but that hole at St Enodoc is breathtaking so I'll vote for it.

I'm not sure what the rules are.but having to have played the hole to vote for it (automatically making you vote against one you hadn't played) would seem a huge disadvantage to lesser known, remote courses.

I thought anyone could vote for any course, but will have to let Richard clarify.

[Richard Choi]

I'm not sure what the rules are.but having to have played the hole to vote for it (automatically making you vote against one you hadn't played) would seem a huge disadvantage to lesser known, remote courses.

Jeff, it is a free for all. You can vote however you may wish based on whatever criteria you want to use. And really no need for abstaining, everyone should voice their opinions. I just encourage those who have played the holes to tell us why it is a great hole.

The real goal for these series of threads is to learn more about template holes and how they are used in wide variety of holes throughout the world. Voting is just bonus...

[Mark Pearce]

Tom knows Yale much better than I do but I agree with what he says.  It's a driver off the tee (though I played there a couple of days after some NCAA strokeplay event last year and the members I played with said that one player had almost reached the bunker.  That is a FRIGHTENINGLY big hit, the hole is steeply uphill and that is a long, long way.  Also, the approach needs to be very accurate.  I have never three (or four) putted as often in my life as I did at Yale.  Missing the right part of the green makes par difficult, missing the green makes it extremely difficult.

[Tim Nugent]

Yale distills #17 @ Prestwick down to just one element - a blind bunker fronting a green.  It lacks the drama/discision of having to pick a spot (nob) on that impressive ridgeline to aim at on top of needing to get the distance correct.

St. E has the impressive ridge but lacks the dilemma of the approach.  

While both draw some similarity to the original, neither succeed in employing all the variables.  That said, of the two holes, I favor the St. E hole because it works with what was there but the lack of the fronting bunker is hard for me to come to grips with when referring to this as a Template.  Yale on the otherhand is a weak-kneed attempt that allows for a diplomatic layup and a 'wedge-over' for par.  The lack of the imposing ridge (which wouldn't fit with the landscape IMO) lesds to the watered-down comparision to the original.  However, taken for what they are,  I won't argue that these are a pair of good and intriqueing golf holes.

[Richard Choi]

Tim, that is a great write-up, thanks. Can we have a true NCAA tourney style #12 over #5 upset brewing?

[Tom Dunne]

Tim,

You do kind of need to know a.) Where the hole location is and b.) Remember how the high left side of the green relates to the lower right when you're picking out a line on the ridge for a blind shot. Those that two putt coming from one tier to the other don't deserve a medal or anything, but they've done well.

As for the "diplomatic" layup, I guess that's valid if you feel like you can consistently get up and down for par from 50 yards with only the aerial shot available. Oh, and unless you're really at the very top of the hill (at which point you have anawkward ~30 yard shot over the bunker), the hole location is still going to be blind. Getting up and down in two from there is not nearly the cakewalk you're making it out to be, especially if the flag is on the left-hand side.

I don't think Yale's is the greatest Alps by any means, but I wouldn't describe it as "weak-kneed".

[Mark McKeever]

Yale

Mark

[Morgan Clawson]

St Enodoc.

The entire hole aside, I think that is the coolest looking Alps hill I have seen so far.

[Jason Topp]

Would this type of hole be more interesting if the hole were longer - say 425-470 yards. I would think such a hole would play more like the original in gutta percha times and force an intersting layup/go for it decision on the 2nd.

[Noel Freeman]

I've played the one at Yale over 100 times and the one at St. Enodoc 6 times.. I don't see a comparison b/t the two and it really isnt worth comparing.  I say this not to impugn the thread but if we are going to talk about this, then why not throw the Klondyke at Lahinch in too.  Yale's Alps on the card looks short but at 400 yards or so where we play it, it is severely uphill and the 2nd shot is dictated by where the flag is due to the vertical spine running thru the green.  You definitely have to hit driver off the tee..

St. Enodoc's hole is a 3 or 5 wood to play short of the Himalaya bunker (I've heard downwind some big hitters trying to drive the hole) and if you get your tee shot enough left you may have a peak at the hole.  The 2nd is nothing but an 8 iron to wedge to an amphitheater green.

I just think they are nothing alike as St. Enodoc's 6th is not an Alps and remotely not similar to any Alps I've really played..

[jeffwarne]

I've played the one at Yale over 100 times and the one at St. Enodoc 6 times.. I don't see a comparison b/t the two and it really isnt worth comparing.  I say this not to impugn the thread but if we are going to talk about this, then why not throw the Klondyke at Lahinch in too.  Yale's Alps on the card looks short but at 400 yards or so where we play it, it is severely uphill and the 2nd shot is dictated by where the flag is due to the vertical spine running thru the green.  You definitely have to hit driver off the tee..

St. Enodoc's hole is a 3 or 5 wood to play short of the Himalaya bunker (I've heard downwind some big hitters trying to drive the hole) and if you get your tee shot enough left you may have a peak at the hole.  The 2nd is nothing but an 8 iron to wedge to an amphitheater green.

I just think they are nothing alike as St. Enodoc's 6th is not an Alps and remotely not similar to any Alps I've really played..

Noel,
St. Enodoc's 6th is 416 yards from the white tees(378 metres)but not uphill like Yale's 400 (all the way back)
I'm guessing if you hit 5 wood-8 iron-wedge, you were on the visitors tees, the ground was extremely firm, or you were downwind.

No one's disputing the quality of either hole, but to dismiss the verticality of that giant bunker to an average member at St. Enodoc from the 416 yard member tees,would be a mistake in my opinion. If he hits it 220(which most amateurs don't), he's still got 196 in over a HUGE hill.(if he's playing the yellows he's still got 180 left as the hole is 400 yards from the yellow tees.
The same golfer wouldn't be playing from 400 yards at yale, but rather 350-granted the uphill nature of that hole and difficult approach would cause him to struggle to hit and hold the green as well, but I doubt he would be nearly as visually intimidated.

The 12th at Yale is one of many excellent holes at yale, but I doubt many (even on this thread) remember it as distinctly as well as the 6th at St. Enodoc, which is instantly recognizeable for anyone who's ever played there.
While you may dismiss St. Enodoc's hole for lack of a fronting bunker and a bowled approach, other's may dismiss Yale's Alps for lack of a distinctive Alps landform.
For the record, I happen to really enjoy uphill holes and really liked this paticular hole at Yale.

Both great holes-this may go down to the wire.
Subtlety vs. in your face-two different uses of different terrain (as you said maybe not the best holes to compare)

[Noel Freeman]

Jeff-

When I play a UK course I always go where the tees are set up as it would be bad form to do otherwise and you nailed it, I've played it at 375 ish or so which when hard and fast is certainly understandable how I hit 3 wood or 5 wood and has 8 iron to wedge in.. I don't recall the 416 yard tee and St. Enodoc did do a lot of renovation in the last few years and I wonder (I'll have to look on my old scorecards) if that is a new tee.. For example due to the new green on #16, that hole is much longer that it used to be.  For me a 416 yard tee would probably still be 3 wood on that hole depending on the wind as you could hit it thru the fairway and bring the bunkers into play but at worst I'd probably have a 6 or 7 iron in.  That would make it play more similar to Yale from a club selection aspect but at Yale I have an uphill lie and if the pin is left a shot with all sorts of shot values to it (less so if the pin is right and more bailout room).. At St. Enodoc I agree the bunker is an issue for the high handicapper but it served its purpose as one of the curios of golf back in the old days of the game when the prospect of clearing it was heroic indeed. Sadly for mid and lower handicaps it is but a relic.  For a player of your quality, the hole is nothing but fairway wood, wedge depending on the vagaries of the wind and I would say you pay the bunker no mind.. At Yale, the uphill lie is trickier to judge and the green more difficult.

YMMV

[Pete_Pittock]

Played St. Enodoc once, not been to Yale. Pulled my drive and was down by the cart path, free drop off path, unobstructed view of the green. It didn't play as an Alps for me. Despite the trmendous dunes my

Vote is for Yale.

Plus if you go by George Bahto's decription, St Enodoc doesn't have a fronting bunker. The Alps is sort of a steeplechase obstacle with a hedge jump and pond having a dune/bunker substitute.

[Sean_A]

Jeff-

When I play a UK course I always go where the tees are set up as it would be bad form to do otherwise and you nailed it, I've played it at 375 ish or so which when hard and fast is certainly understandable how I hit 3 wood or 5 wood and has 8 iron to wedge in.. I don't recall the 416 yard tee and St. Enodoc did do a lot of renovation in the last few years and I wonder (I'll have to look on my old scorecards) if that is a new tee.. For example due to the new green on #16, that hole is much longer that it used to be.  For me a 416 yard tee would probably still be 3 wood on that hole depending on the wind as you could hit it thru the fairway and bring the bunkers into play but at worst I'd probably have a 6 or 7 iron in.  That would make it play more similar to Yale from a club selection aspect but at Yale I have an uphill lie and if the pin is left a shot with all sorts of shot values to it (less so if the pin is right and more bailout room).. At St. Enodoc I agree the bunker is an issue for the high handicapper but it served its purpose as one of the curios of golf back in the old days of the game when the prospect of clearing it was heroic indeed. Sadly for mid and lower handicaps it is but a relic.  For a player of your quality, the hole is nothing but fairway wood, wedge depending on the vagaries of the wind and I would say you pay the bunker no mind.. At Yale, the uphill lie is trickier to judge and the green more difficult.

YMMV

Tuco

So you never played St Enodoc's Alps into a wind then?  I can guarantee you that the dune can be of serious concern - enough so to watch guys layup over the dune because they weren't sure a lower iron would have enough height.  I would also add that the green is bowl shaped, but the grass on the banks is not cut so it doesn't play a punchbowl.  Its not an easy target especially if you stray to the right side of the fairway and leave a poor angle.  

Ciao  

[Noel Freeman]

Sean,

Into the wind, with the wind are all illusions.. Is the 17th at Deal an Alps now too? Into a 35mph southwesterly it aint easy to clear the cross bunkers and the hole is only 380ish as well.  I played St. Enodoc once with Paul Turner with that hole into a mild zephyr.. It really didnt frighten me but into a strong enough wind, we can argue anything.

Let me say, I'm a fan of #6, I love St. Enodoc and wrote about it for Golf Architecture magazine but to me the holes are not really comparable. Again, then why don't we add the Klondyke in for good measure.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Into the wind, with the wind are all illusions.. Is the 17th at Deal an Alps now too? Into a 35mph southwesterly it aint easy to clear the cross bunkers and the hole is only 380ish as well.  I played St. Enodoc once with Paul Turner with that hole into a mild zephyr.. It really didnt frighten me but into a strong enough wind, we can argue anything.

Let me say, I'm a fan of #6, I love St. Enodoc and wrote about it for Golf Architecture magazine but to me the holes are not really comparable. Again, then why don't we add the Klondyke in for good measure.

Tuco

An Alps exists independent of wind, but wind can certainly make a proper Alps play very differently on any given day.  You must also realize that you are what, a low single marker?  Think outside the box a bit.

Ciao

[Noel Freeman]

Sean,

Into the wind, with the wind are all illusions.. Is the 17th at Deal an Alps now too? Into a 35mph southwesterly it aint easy to clear the cross bunkers and the hole is only 380ish as well.  I played St. Enodoc once with Paul Turner with that hole into a mild zephyr.. It really didnt frighten me but into a strong enough wind, we can argue anything.

Let me say, I'm a fan of #6, I love St. Enodoc and wrote about it for Golf Architecture magazine but to me the holes are not really comparable. Again, then why don't we add the Klondyke in for good measure.

Tuco

An Alps exists independent of wind, but wind can certainly make a proper Alps play very differently on any given day.  You must also realize that you are what, a low single marker?  Think outside the box a bit.

Ciao

Sean-


I just disagree that every shot over a blind ridge or hill is an Alps.  Should I throw in the 3rd at Deal for the shot over Lang's Neck (that is what it was called in the 20s and 30s).. An Alps is an Alps--Prestwick or the Macdonald Raynor Templates.. The others are blind shots over vertical obstacles.

[Richard Choi]

A friendly reminder that the voting window closes end of day today (Pacific time).

This is the most interesting matchup so far. Yale is squeaking by with 5 to 4.