THM! Alps - 1st Rnd - #1 Prestwick (Advances) vs #16 Yeamans Hall

[Richard Choi]

OK, Here we go...

Sorry, it took me awhile to get all the pics and info arranged for these matchups. I narrowed the nominations to sweet 16 holes (sorry Kingston Heath - you were the last out) for easier seeding and matchups.

You have till EOD (PST) Wed to cast your votes. Just state your preference on this thread. The voting is open to all. I highly recommend those who have played the holes to try to influence the voters as much as possible. I will tally the results on Thu and schedule the next round.

Enjoy.

Seed #1

Prestwick 17th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 391 yards

Why: The original. The hole is so good others decided to copy it. Nuff said.






Seed #16

Yeamans Hall 5th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 420 yards

Why: From Ran - By 1925, though, Seth Raynor had already heard the complaints from a number of memberships about the blind aspect of his Alps holes to the point where here at Yeamans Hall, he merely put in the front Alps bunker and didn’t bother with the blind aspect of a conventional Alps. Still, the central hazards in the forms of cops and bunkers between the tee and green create plenty of playing interest for this flat hole just as the Bottle bunker configuration originally did at the 4th.

[JNC Lyon]

This seeding worked out perfectly for me, since I've played both Yeamans Hall and Prestwick.

Prestwick's 17th is pure fun from tee to green.  The tee shot is not highly strategic, but I like the drive because the landing area is wide enough so, even after a wayward tee shot, players will have a chance to take on the Alps approach.  The green itself exists out of prescription in that fits beautifully between two large dunes.  While modern architects might have seen the need to bulldoze the dune in front of the green, the 17th green is just there, with the dugout bunker standing as the hole's only artificiality.

The second shot can only be described as thrilling.  During my day at Prestwick, the wind was howling in my face.  This meant that I had to rip a two-iron into the green on both tries, despite the hole being under 400 yards.  The sight of the golf ball disappearing over the dune is surely one of the greatest feelings in golf, as is scrambling to the top of the hill to see the result.  A poorly played shot may find the bunker, but a solid hit will either come to rest on the green or in an awkward position off the putting surface.

It is not until the player gets past the famous Alps bunker that things get really interesting.  The green is a rippling halfpipe.  Any shot that does not find the perfect position relative to the flag will leave a difficult recovery.  However, taking the blindness of the second shot into account, the green's sideboards always allow the creative golfer a legitimate chance for an up-and-down.  It is great fun to play pitch shots and long putts well to the side of the hole and watch them drift back towards the pin.  Each of the two times I played this hole, I spent 10 to 15 minutes around the green trying all sorts of shots.  The endless array of shot game options, combined with the thrill of the blind second, is what makes the Alps at Prestwick so timeless.

[JNC Lyon]

I love the original Alps at Prestwick.  Yet the 5th at Yeamans Hall is a gem as well.  Yeamans' Alps is often known as the flatest Alps Hole in the world.  Interestingly, Raynor had some undulating terrain to work with at Yeamans Hall, but he chose to lay out the Alps over the flatest ground.  Yeamans' 5th of course lacks the giant dune hill of holes like Prestwick's 17th, Tain's 11th, or NGLA's 3rd.  Nevertheless, Raynor built in several bunkers and oddly shaped mounds as substitutes.  Furthermore, he recreates Prestwick's fearsome bunker directly in front of the green at Yeamans. 

This bunker is the key to the entire operation at the 5th, as Raynor raised up the face of the bunker so that any approach from the low-lying fairway is obscured.  The golfer can see the flag, but he will never see the bottom of the flag and will rarely see the green.  Yeamans Hall's 5th is an example of brilliant bunkering from Raynor (as restored by Tom Doak and Jim Urbina), and it is a clever way to recreate the blindness and uncertainty of the original over flat ground.

The green surface at Yeamans Hall is also quite fearsome, sloping steeply from back to front.  It does not have the complexity of Prestwick's 17th, but it still defends the hole well and forces the player to stay below the hole.  Control is of the utmost importance coming into this green, and it can be a very difficult proposition because of the obscured nature of the approach.

The matchup between Prestwick's 17th and Yeamans Hall's 5th is truly one of man versus nature.  Prestwick's Alps is entirely natural, with a brilliant green placed in a hollow between two large dunes.  Man's hand is soft upon the land here, and, because of that, one of the greatest concepts in golf course architecture was born.  On the other hand, Yeamans Hall's Alps is a completely artificial creation over dead flat land.  It shows the genius of the greatest earthmover of them all, Seth Raynor.  Ultimately, Yeamans Hall's 5th is that cinderella story you can't help but root for.  You love the golf hole, but you also know that, at some point, the carriage will turn into a pumpkin.  Despite Seth the Surveyor's best efforts, I pick Prestwick's 17th for the win.

[Bryan Izatt]

I haven't played Yeaman's, but based on the pictures and my play of Prestwick, Prestwick is the easy winner.  Yeaman's has wussy pimples, where dramatic hills are required for the concept.  Apparently that much earth movement would have been impossible on Yeaman's site.

I disagree with JNC about the drive at Prestwick's 17th.  I don't see that "landing area is wide enough so, even after a wayward tee shot, players will have a chance to take on the Alps approach".  I thought the tee shot is demanding in its own right and even hitting the fairway is almost a guarantee of having an uneven lie to attempt the thrilling second.  The fairway is fairly tight, especially on such a windy site.  As for driving it anywhere and still having a shot at the green, well, the rough was very gnarly when I was there.

A couple of extra pics of the tee shot and the second shot:

[Sean_A]

Prestwick wins this in a cake walk.  However, I don't think Prestwick is a template in the sense of how that word is used for Templates - its the original!  If we do accept the original as a template (read copy) rather than The Template, in all of the similar cases any template is going to struggle to be better.  VOTE: due to a DQ YH wins this match.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Prestwick.  Richard makes the rules.  And a copy can be better than the original.  Just not in this case.

[jeffwarne]

Prestwick.  Richard makes the rules.  And a copy can be better than the original.  Just not in this case.

I thought the hole at yeamans was a great use of flat land
just not an Alps
prestwick

[Morgan Clawson]

An Alps on flat land is an oxymoron.
Prestwick.

[Bill_McBride]

Prestwick.

I think the Alps hole at Mountain Lake is a bit like Yeaman's, slightly uphill, no blind shot, bunkering to deal with in front.  #3?

[JNC Lyon]

I think an examination of any Alps hole, be it Prestwick, NGLA, or any other one, shows that the Alps Hole is not just about the blind approach over the huge hill.  The green contours and surrounding areas play a huge role in the hole's interest and greatness.  Yeamans Hall's 5th does not have a big dune, but the approach shot is still obscured and difficult to judge due to Raynor's handiwork.  Don't rule out the 5th at Yeamans as "not an Alps" because it does not have the huge dune.  There is so much more to the Alps than that blind approach.

[Anthony Gray]

  Do most greens found on Alps holes feed the ball to the center?

  Anthony

[Norbert P]

 

  Disclosure - I have not played YH - played Prestwick.

  Y Hall's green fronting bunker should have the right third filled in.    The original concept should be adjusted here.

 


   

[Anthony Gray]

  One of the treats that Prestwick has is the tee shot crosses the Cardinal Bunker.This is often overlooked,but it adds character to the hole.

  Anthony

[Mark McKeever]

An Alps on flat land is an oxymoron.
Prestwick.

Prestwick.

Mark

[JNC Lyon]

Slag,

Why do you think the right third of the Yeamans bunker should be filled in?

Anthony,

I agree, nobody notices that the Cardinal extends across the front of the 17th tee to guard the 16th green (the original first green).  The railway ties are a huge part of the charm of Prestwick, and they make the look of the Alps very interesting.

[Gary Slatter]

Prestwick wins.  Even when it is your third shot ending up in the sand.  Plus you practice earlier on the front nine.

[Norbert P]

Slag,

Why do you think the right third of the Yeamans bunker should be filled in?

From the picture presented . . .It gives a more balanced option off the tee.  Why would anybody want to go right?  Entice them a little to flirt with the bunker by opening up the right entry.

Again, I have not been there and don't know the green, and understand that the pin placement can determine tee options somewhat, but I think filling in the right section would make the hole more interesting.

 Designers are continually inspired by concepts but it's a shame when these concepts are not adjusted to the terrain of a hole but merely "cut and pasted" without scrutinizing the design for its utmost strategic playability.

[JNC Lyon]

Slag,

Check out the first ground-level photo of Yeamans Hall.  You can see that the left half of the fairway is filled with random mounding.  This means that the golfer who drives left to avoid the bunkers has to deal with the possibility of a very awkward stance on the second shot.  From an uneven lie, it will be much harder to make the forced carry on the second shot than it will from a level on the right.

There is a distinct advantage to driving left at the 5th, but the advantage is a level lie rather than a better angle.  Yeamans Hall's Alps has a much more strategic tee shot than the original Alps.  Yeamans' 5th is hardly a cut and paste of the original.  The reason Prestwick is better is because of the thrill of the approach over the dune and the more interesting green.

[Norbert P]

Slag,

 #1  Check out the first ground-level photo of Yeamans Hall.  You can see that the left half of the fairway is filled with random mounding.  . . .

  #2 The reason Prestwick is better is because of the thrill of the approach over the dune and the more interesting green.

 #  I saw the random mounding on my Hasbro Laptop and mistook them for the bunker digging spoils.  D'oh!   Too funny. I can now see the divot holes in the mound slopes.    Thusly, see your point.      It is an odd artistic effect - sort of like Mr. Potato Head pieces stuck on the land.  I don't mean to offend Seth or those that love his work, it's just (in pictures) not naturalistic to my eye or geologic beliefs.  I wonder what Robert Price would think.

#2 And the Red LYon Inn (sic)
www.redlionprestwick.com/node/1

[Brian Brady]

In this case, the original hole defeats the copy. Never been to Prestwick, but have played Yeamans, which is an awesome place, yet it doesn't compare to Prestwick in terms of the Alps.

[JNC Lyon]

Slag,

 #1  Check out the first ground-level photo of Yeamans Hall.  You can see that the left half of the fairway is filled with random mounding.  . . .

  #2 The reason Prestwick is better is because of the thrill of the approach over the dune and the more interesting green.

 #  I saw the random mounding on my Hasbro Laptop and mistook them for the bunker digging spoils.  D'oh!   Too funny. I can now see the divot holes in the mound slopes.    Thusly, see your point.      It is an odd artistic effect - sort of like Mr. Potato Head pieces stuck on the land.  I don't mean to offend Seth or those that love his work, it's just (in pictures) not naturalistic to my eye or geologic beliefs.  I wonder what Robert Price would think.

#2 And the Red LYon Inn (sic)
www.redlionprestwick.com/node/1

I agree, the mounding is a bit strange, but it's one of those cool manmade features that make Raynor's courses fascinating.  The mounds blend in well with the surrouding land, especially because of the rugged appearance of the course, and they achieve their strategic purpose.

Prestwick will always have a place in my heart, though not necessarily because of the Red Lion Inn. http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43568.0.html

[Anthony Gray]

  Let's not forget about those scotish caddies and the tonb stones at the top of the mound.Prestwick has great theater.

  Anthony

[Doug Siebert]

I've played Prestwick but not YH.  So based on the pictures I've seen for Yeamans I've got to give it to Prestwick.  Prestwick does have a couple weak holes, but this is not one of them.

[JNC Lyon]

I don't buy the "original not a template" theory.  Doesn't the original serve as a template for future imitators?

[Sean_A]

JNC

If we accept the original as a template rather than The Template then this whole deal is a waste of time.  Prestwick won this contest 100 years ago - thats why CBM used the concept.  Do you honestly think any other Alps tops Prestwick's?  Not a chance.  It has history, beauty, drama and a great balance of chance and skill involved. 

Ciao