[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

Fair comment and yes I do question many things. Done so in the voice of fellowship and hopefully improved discussion between us, in the hope of understanding the complexity of a simple game. 

What I do not understand is how do you know that you are right and that I need to save ‘the invalidation for someone else’.

Like it or not I do have an interest in Golf, quite frankly a unique connection to the game that goes back centuries. If my families collective understand, knowledge and association is not wanted on this site just say the word and I will do the honourable thing and fall upon my sword and leave, but I will not do that for the minority. But then as someone recently mentioned “There are a lot of members and different ideas” who I believe have a right to voice their opinion whatever that may be.


Pat

You say “It is very clear in here what you believe is right and wrong in the game today”. Should we not be celebrating because GCA.com has achieved one of its many. many targets of conveying thoughts and opinions.

I think America should be congratulated too for promoting and grabbing golf and taken it to their hearts. Your TV coverage with your golf publications have done wonders worldwide by introducing the game to millions.

Of those millions of Americans, a proportion can be seen as members of GCA.com who also believe in golf as a Walking and Thinking game. Apparently a minority but on the scale of things in my country a large minority. So I have much to cherish about the game in your country.

I digress for a moment, please bear with me.

The USA has its culture at home, when its troops or large group travel to live overseas, do they embrace the local culture, no, the first thing we see is a mini USA be it done by The Military, its Embassies and collective group of citizens. Nothing wrong there, you are maintaining your status quo.

So pray tell me what I am doing wrong in my wish that golf should remain as it was and is on our Island. I wish to see the game remain challenge by Walking and Thinking. To have a consistency in golfing equipment that’s allow a golfer to follow and understand over the years where his game has gone. To return to an old course hardly touched for 25 years and play it again knowing he retained the original scorecard and his clubs are more or less the same, it is indescribable.

So there you have it I am asking for the very same thing your own country offer its citizens, consistency wherever you go in the world, again just like staying at The Hilton, same effect. However some of you seem to take pleasure in attaching me, some calling me an elitist forgetting that’s the very thing you do yourselves, but in a much bigger and far more expensive way. Please note I just want consistency on the golf course back to the days of pre carts and distance aids (for me that’s the 1960’s early 1970’s.

Melvyn

PS  I feel some great debates could be had if we look back and discuss what may have been had we stayed with The Haskell or a specific club say circa 1900 and 1950 and its affect upon the old great courses. Is there any more fun in hitting the hell out of a ball if it only travelled 200 yards against over 300yards or quite frankly once you got use to the fact it would still be just as enjoyable. The point being is that I do not think the game would suffer, in fact I believe the game would improve, our old course with their great Holes will come back into play as they were originally designed and perhaps the latest Designers may design some new great Holes to match the Road Hole of Redan.

PPS I never said that Fine Golf was better than GCA.com, all I mentioned serious golfing issues, surprise how many seems to have ignore that rather major point.

[Mac Plumart]

PS  I feel some great debates could be had if we look back and discuss what may have been had we stayed with The Haskell or a specific club say circa 1900 and 1950 and its affect upon the old great courses. Is there any more fun in hitting the hell out of a ball if it only travelled 200 yards against over 300yards or quite frankly once you got use to the fact it would still be just as enjoyable. The point being is that I do not think the game would suffer, in fact I believe the game would improve, our old course with their great Holes will come back into play as they were originally designed and perhaps the latest Designers may design some new great Holes to match the Road Hole of Redan.

Melvyn...

I find this point fascinating and I think you are largely correct.  Given the fact that I am still fairly new to the game and my interest to learn first hand about all of these changes and to see for myself how they've changed things, I think I have a decent foundation to speak to some of these issues...as they are still fresh in my mind.

To your point about hitting the hell out of the ball and seeing it only go 200 yards.  I agree that is fun...no matter if it is 200, 250, 275...and I'd imagine 300 feels even better, but I can't speak from first hand experience unless you count the flukey shot.  BUT I have found that when playing with gutties, I don't get that thrill.  I've hit the hell out of them, see them take off like a rocket, die in the air, and drop down at 160ish.  Kind of like smashing a wiffle ball.  I don't get the same sense of satisfaction out of hitting balata and persimmon, or the replica haskell/bramble balls, or modern clubs and balls. 

And there is no doubt whatsoever that these technological changes have had an effect on golf course architecture.  And frankly, I am of the opinion that that effect isn't neccessarily good.  Maybe I can even strike out neccessarily and simply state that it hasn't been good, but I didn't, and don't, build courses, run golf clubs, or a golf construction business...so I don't know for sure.  But I would venture a guess that the cost/benefit analysis doesn't render a very good result. 

However, I do play the game...with all sorts of different equipment.  I don't derive an immense amount of extra pleasure from playing modern balls and modern equipment from 6,700 yards rather than persimmons from 6,200 yards.  In fact, my personal favorite feeling is hitting my persimmons on the screws.  The sound and feeling is something I can't quite put into words other than to say it is a thrill and a pleasure.

These are just my opinions...we all will have differing ones.  But I find this discussion on technology and the changes it has had on, not only architecture but, the game in its entirety to be vitally important...and fun to "research". 

[SL_Solow]

I said I would not engage but I feel compelled.  I have stayed away from most of the similar posts and I suspect that I may regret weighing in but I have done foolish things before.  The unwarranted condescension contained in the most recent post cannot be left alone.

The issues raised are the same ones that have been raised on almost every post.  We understand the points.  As others stated, many of us don't like carts except for those who could not play without them.  I always walk when allowed and often walk behind the cart when they are required.  I lament the architectural and aesthetic problems created by cart paths.

But I understand the lessons of King Canute.  Just as he could not stop the tide from rolling in, I suspect none of us (I was tempted to say not even King Melvyn) can roll back time and eliminate carts.  Too many clubs view them as revenue sources and too many players have become dependent on them.  Thus we should be grateful for places like Bandon Dunes and then spend the rest of our time productively  seeking ways to minimize carts' impact.

Similarly regarding the use of "unsuitable" ground, no one will dispute that a good site makes it easier and cheaper to design and build  a good golf course.  But people want to play golf wherever they go.  After all, that is how the game came inland in the first instance and if my reading is correct, it was widely stated that good golf required a seaside location.  There are a few examples where that was incorrect.  Thus if we assume that people will build wherever they go, the question is how do they do it in the best way possible.  That is a topic worthy of discussion; weighing the expense of building a "better" course versus taking the land as it lies.  In any event, this is a discussion that is much less important in the near term.  Most of the bad sites were a result of housing developments.  Given current trends, we are much less likely to see new courses on bad sites then we are to see course closings.

As to equipment, while I agree an equipment roll back would be useful, I do not believe it will occur.  Thus while it may be an interesting discussion, if we are really trying to impact  the game and architecture, a better focus would be to try to limit further changes which would aid distance.  A ball roll back might be possible but it will be a difficult fight.  I can't think of any sport that, having allowed equipment to "improve", has then gone backwards.  Baseball has done a reasonable job of holding the line but it has never gone back.

My last comment goes directly to you, Melvyn.  It is not my place to invite people on or off this site and I wouldn't want that authority.  It is clear you have a passion for the game which I applaud.  But your repeated allusions to your family are more than an annoyance.  At least on this side of the pond there are no hereditary titles.  Ability and understanding are sometimes passed from generation to generation but too often they are not.  Let your arguments stand or fall on their own.  It is admirable that you are proud of your heritage as you should be.  But appealing to Old Tom will not add credence to what you say, it is viewed as a make weight when the force of your argument is insufficient.

[Alex Miller]

I think America should be congratulated too for promoting and grabbing golf and taken it to their hearts. Your TV coverage with your golf publications have done wonders worldwide by introducing the game to millions.

Of those millions of Americans, a proportion can be seen as members of GCA.com who also believe in golf as a Walking and Thinking game. Apparently a minority but on the scale of things in my country a large minority. So I have much to cherish about the game in your country.

I digress for a moment, please bear with me.

The USA has its culture at home, when its troops or large group travel to live overseas, do they embrace the local culture, no, the first thing we see is a mini USA be it done by The Military, its Embassies and collective group of citizens. Nothing wrong there, you are maintaining your status quo.

So pray tell me what I am doing wrong in my wish that golf should remain as it was and is on our Island. I wish to see the game remain challenge by Walking and Thinking. To have a consistency in golfing equipment that’s allow a golfer to follow and understand over the years where his game has gone. To return to an old course hardly touched for 25 years and play it again knowing he retained the original scorecard and his clubs are more or less the same, it is indescribable.

So there you have it I am asking for the very same thing your own country offer its citizens, consistency wherever you go in the world, again just like staying at The Hilton, same effect. However some of you seem to take pleasure in attaching me, some calling me an elitist forgetting that’s the very thing you do yourselves, but in a much bigger and far more expensive way.

Melvyn,

This is the wrong website to solve an "issue" like this. For a few reasons:

1, How many Americans on here do you think act like this? I would wager <5.
2, What does having a revenge influence solve? If you don't appreciate people acting like this why would you want to do the same thing to others? Especially on here where repeatedly crying to us over the same issues does not change our opinions (we are likeminded for the mostpart) but only belabors the point.


And as for your desire for the game of golf to remain untouched on your island, what are you going to do here to ensure that? I joined this group to learn more about golf course architecture. I found out I had an interest in the subject because I realized I would watch PGA Tour events for the course and not the players and the strategy of golf fascinated me. I've learned about countless courses I probably won't ever play in my life on here, learned about the golden age architects, learned about Old Tom's collaboration with nature, and have had a few questions answered by another Tom. I appreciate 99% of the discussion on here, even a good number of the OTs are written with good intentions, but every post from you is repetitive and lies on the edge of what the DG is really about. I appreciate the passion and sense of history you bring here, but I don't know if the forum for your golf issues exists yet and I think until it does you will receive backlash to your posts, no matter how correct or incessant they are.

[Garland Bayley]

It seems that many of you have drifted so far from the game of golf that you do not seem to understand the architectural requirements anymore.

I have no idea where you get this from. ...

Perhaps you should look up a thread or two about Engh cartball courses.

[David_Tepper]

SL Solow -

Thank you for your most recent post. You expressed a number of my thoughts far more tactfully and tastefully than I could have.

DT

[Jonathan Cummings]

SL Solow -

Thank you for your most recent post. You expressed a number of my thoughts far more tactfully and tastefully than I could have.

DT

Man - I couldn't agree more.

As a longtime freelance golf writer if I tried to make a point using condescension that would be the last time my editors asked me to write an article!

JC

[Tim Martin]

Melvin-What comes through most is your unrelenting chorus of everything that is wrong with the game and not what is great about it. I looked at the FineGolf site and it was certainly interesting and contained some good information. That said I don`t think that GCA has much to worry about in that they are not trying to appeal to the same target audience. Take the best of both and tuck that information in your hip pocket.

[Bob_Huntley]

SL Solow,

Thank you for excellent response to Melvyn's latest epistle. If you are a lawyer, I would not llike to be cross examined by you; you puncture ill-considered statements with a rapier like thrust. Uxorious is the word given to excessive love of one's wife; what is it for ancestors?

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

Could it possibly be called “Going Native” or is that reserved for something else!!

Trust you are now fully fit and ready for what life throws at you

Melvyn

[Pat Burke]

From Melvyn's reply
"I digress for a moment, please bear with me.

The USA has its culture at home, when its troops or large group travel to live overseas, do they embrace the local culture, no, the first thing we see is a mini USA be it done by The Military, its Embassies and collective group of citizens. Nothing wrong there, you are maintaining your status quo.

So pray tell me what I am doing wrong in my wish that golf should remain as it was and is on our Island. I wish to see the game remain challenge by Walking and Thinking. To have a consistency in golfing equipment that’s allow a golfer to follow and understand over the years where his game has gone. To return to an old course hardly touched for 25 years and play it again knowing he retained the original scorecard and his clubs are more or less the same, it is indescribable.

So there you have it I am asking for the very same thing your own country offer its citizens, consistency wherever you go in the world, again just like staying at The Hilton, same effect. However some of you seem to take pleasure in attaching me, some calling me an elitist forgetting that’s the very thing you do yourselves, but in a much bigger and far more expensive way. Please note I just want consistency on the golf course back to the days of pre carts and distance aids (for me that’s the 1960’s early 1970’s."


Melvyn,
Thanks for the response. Your reply on what is positive, I basically agree with.

In regards to consistency in my country.  The only thing consistent is our inconsistency.
I played a golf course for a charity event this week.  Drove through two neighborhoods.  One neighborhood was decidedly Asian, and the signage on the shops and buildings was amazing.  I then went through a largely Latino neighborhood, and it was pretty clear that their culture was dominant in the storefronts and shops.  The radical differences in cultures and beliefs in this country is reflected in communities AND golf courses.  Remote, inexpensive places for the locals, exotic/over the top courses for those desiring it.

Growth of this country, as well as the attraction to the game, spread golf across the land to sites that many in Scotland may see as unsuitable to golf.  In my eyes, as I drive across our land, I am forever visualizing golf holes and courses stretching along highways and country roads.  Sometimes on beautiful sandy land, sometimes with simply beautiful vistas.  The good and the bad our country has given golf, is an expansion of the game, to areas not originally thought to be for the game.  To me, providing a venue for anybody to be introduced to this game is a positive.  Ideally, that would come with a way to KEEP them interested in it.

As far as my question that led to your response, I simply asked what you LIKED about American golf.  If my question was seen in any way as an attack, I am uncertain what to say.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

I noticed no attack nor took it as one, I just tried to answer you.

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

Melvyn, a direct question:  have you ever to the United States and played golf?

[Pat Burke]

Melvyn,
Apologies.
Your original response mentions attacks, and I assumed.  Stupid of me.  Sorry
Pat

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

As per previous answers in past posts  NO, so I can only comment upon the blogs, mags, newspapers and internet material hence my statement. Have I travelled the world, Yes a fair amount in the Tropical regions where I have played and enjoyed golf – and came across many American overseas communities thus experiencing home goods more or less on tap. Something our own Embassy failed to provide, ditto with the other European expat communities.

Melvyn

Pat

Attack but not by you - in the past.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

As per previous answers in past posts  NO, so I can only comment upon the blogs, mags, newspapers and internet material hence my statement. Have I travelled the world, Yes a fair amount in the Tropical regions where I have played and enjoyed golf – and came across many American overseas communities thus experiencing home goods more or less on tap. Something our own Embassy failed to provide, ditto with the other European expat communities.

Melvyn

I wish you could personally experience some golf over here.

It's like Americans who only know about UK golf from sources like yours.  They have no feeling for what golf is like over on your end.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

I agree with you

Melvyn

[PCCraig]

'Fine Golf' is a hackjob of a golf website and pales in comparison to GCA. Sorry.

[Troy Alderson]

Fine Golf is a great site, dedicated to the advancement of fescue turf.  GCA may have helped start the trend, but Fine Golf is continuing the trend.  I find more pertinent information regarding why golf should be played on fine turf than on GCA.  Both sites are helping the cause to change how golf is managed.  I know that I would add links to my monthly article for the club to both sites to encouage golfers/members to visit the sites and change the way they look at golf and the golf course.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat Craig makes the following comment

'Fine Golf' is a hackjob of a golf website and pales in comparison to GCA. Sorry.

Fine Golf is basically aimed at the GB Golfer, defining the quality of the game. A few on this site have had the pleasure of meeting Lorne at a UK GCA golfing day and I am lead to believe would not accept that statement, but that’s down to them to defend Lorne and his publication.

IMHO while both this site and Fine Golf look at golf from different view points, it seem that Fine Golf are grasping the nettle exposing the problems with the modern game while GCA.com wastes its time on subjects like What are you listening to; what moves are you watching;  Does anyone have a prettier swing than Luke Donald; best advertising dollar ever spent;   Sports you do not get;  AZ’sTop 25; Global Warming; and again the list goes on and on.

GCA.com has all that is needed to been taken seriously in Golf, Ran and Ben have seen to that. Our job as Members is to raise issue and talk them through but I have never encounter a DG that has accepted defeat before it even is willing to debate the subject in real detail. Say from the design consequences through to cost & build/material problems, the on-going maintenance set against revenue – is it really viable or is the cost to maintain them and the course negating real profit for the course. There is a heap of design questions, if we were only interested but apathy or is it we think we know better and anyway things never change. The point is that things do change, we can if interested in the quality of the game do something about it, perhaps only little by little via feeding out information , by explaining how the game is played and the health advantages. But it takes determination and an interest in Golf, its history and Golf Course Architecture – all which GCA.com is meant to embrace.  How the hell do nations ever become independent, that drive seems to have been lost in a pool of lost souls worshiping at the God Apathy.  I look at Britain today, if we had to face WW2 again I do not feel we have the mental let alone the physical ability to go through it and come out on the winning site. Nevertheless as far as I am concerned it’s not over until the Fat Lady sings and she not even been born yet IMHO.

Mock me for believing that there is something worth fight for -  get frustrated because of the repetitive nature of the fight, go walk away or cross to the other side because you do not think its your fight, because it is, its as much yours as mine, but it’s time to take sided because we need to save the game from fragmenting any more, unless that’s your wish.  Let’s just focus on the Majors, no carts are used as all Golfers walk, so they are our Majors ‘the Cream of the Cream, the actual worldwide Championships still play the traditional way – that not the ending it could be the starting point to reverse the trend, but are you interested enough to maintain the game that so many say they love or is apathy going to break through our ranks. So no balls for a fight , not interested, then let those who still believe try to stop the rot, yet the thought of surrendering before it even starts…..

Follow Pat and his closed mind or reach out to maintain a great game with its great existing courses.

Melvyn

[Terry Lavin]

SL Solow,

Thank you for excellent response to Melvyn's latest epistle. If you are a lawyer, I would not llike to be cross examined by you; you puncture ill-considered statements with a rapier like thrust. Uxorious is the word given to excessive love of one's wife; what is it for ancestors?

Bob

Gotta love a guy who knows the meaning of "uxorious"!  Another gift from the Greeks to modern culture.

As for the other website, if it's something that can lure Melvyn and his monomaniacal rants away from gca, I say God Bless and Godspeed, MHM.

[Mike Hendren]

Like Shel said, it's not a competition.

What's wrong with being number two?
--- Tuesdays With Morrie

[PThomas]

As for the other website, if it's something that can lure Melvyn and his monomaniacal rants away from gca, I say God Bless and Godspeed, MHM.

one of my faults is that I dont look at both sides of things often enough...as i failed to do here...well done Your Honor!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ladies and Gentlemen

The last few posts show the underlining sickness that has penetrated this site. Even with Ran’s cull a few months ago, the bottom feeders on this site have decided to deliberately ignore his wishes. Why enter into a debate when you can attacking the author of an honest post.

A bunch of so called men who care nought for others let alone this site. Your appalling behaviour to others is what weakens GCA.com but then you just do not care.

What is needed are others to voice their opinion to resolve this once and for all – do we debate matters or attacker those we dislike or do the rest of you also not care?

Melvyn

[PCCraig]

Ladies and Gentlemen

The last few posts show the underlining sickness that has penetrated this site. Even with Ran’s cull a few months ago, the bottom feeders on this site have decided to deliberately ignore his wishes. Why enter into a debate when you can attacking the author of an honest post.

A bunch of so called men who care nought for others let alone this site. Your appalling behaviour to others is what weakens GCA.com but then you just do not care.

What is needed are others to voice their opinion to resolve this once and for all – do we debate matters or attacker those we dislike or do the rest of you also not care?

Melvyn

The above few posters are some of the best contributors to GCA, its spirit, and in content. If you like your other GB site better...have fun over there in the comments section. I standby my statement that GCA is a far far far better website and I personally wouldn't waste my time at Fine Golf.

Ironic that you claim others are closed minded when you advocate only one type of "golf", no?

Was this thread started because you actually think Fine Golf is a better website, or because you feel ignored and need another excuse to talk about yourself?

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