...the Next Sand Hills?

[George Pazin]

Universal acclaim strives for this false achievement.

Do you believe that anyone strives for universal acclaim?

[John Kavanaugh]

Universal acclaim strives for this false achievement.

Do you believe that anyone strives for universal acclaim?

The Old Mac committee was built for that purpose.

[Norbert P]

  Maybe a question could be . . .  what is the next golf course paradigm?

As mentioned Sand Hills was/is.  Bandon Dunes was/is.    What's next? 

  And, as mentioned, those that tried to emulate did not always succeed.

[John Kavanaugh]

Slag,

It's right under your nose, what's next is the once failed course under new ownership with no debt.  Better get ya some before it's all gone. 

[Chris Johnston]

Michael - I've never heard of a club that got it absolutely right the first time.   I pointed out DRGC certainly didn't and it wsn't just the course.   Subsequent owners have little to do with Architect mistakes but rather the huge costs to build the infrastructure for a "National" club.  The cabins, and clubhouses cost a fortune above the course and there aren't any lots to pay for it.  It's 100% membership fees that pay the freight - the old way with new costs.  Folks today don't like the cost and, yet, the bill must be paid.  That is what hurt Dismal and others using the model - the non golf pieces were VERY expensive.  Early on, Dismal was not a commercial or financial success.  With no debt, we are getting there.  Coincidence?  

Another Sand Hills - Dick Youngscap built a national club but anyone who knows Dick will agree, he seldom wastes money.  He finds the most cost efficient way to do things right.  I love Dick as a friend and have learned alot form him.  Dismal strayed from the footprints - they tried to go too fancy and alienated people along the way.  

Sand Hills filled quickly as it was (1) cool and (2) not cost prohibitive to join.  <<<Number 2 is as, or more, important as anything and we often ignore it here.  Cool and expensive is...expensive.

There are two main constraints for further courses in the Sand Hills:
  1.  Shortage of people for staff - there are less than 1,000 people in Hooker County.
  2.  Cost to complete facilities for a national club.

The course is the least expensive component in this salad.  If you want outside staff, you have to add employee housing.  Dismal tried to do it all with a clubhouse to die for.  They also built 78 beds for guests, 56 beds for employees, and a huge maintenance facility.  We are lucky to have it all but there is no way we would have done it from scratch.  That is what is impacting the model, people simply spent too much.  I tried to explain that yesterday.  Statistically, the first owner of a new golf club has incredibly low chances for financial success.  It always costs MORE than you thought, members joined SLOWER than you thought, and the $$$ you can get for a membership is LOWER than you thought.  I don't like it any more than you guys and believe people should work together for it may be the path out of the mess.

If you have the infrastructure fully in place + little to no debt, a second course is fairly inexpensive and is doakable.  Stay tuned...

[jeffwarne]

Michael - I've never heard of a club that got it absolutely right the first time.   I pointed out DRGC certainly didn't and it wsn't just the course.   Subsequent owners have little to do with Architect mistakes but rather the huge costs to build the infrastructure for a "National" club.  The cabins, and clubhouses cost a fortune above the course and there aren't any lots to pay for it.  It's 100% membership fees that pay the freight - the old way with new costs.  Folks today don't like the cost and, yet, the bill must be paid.  That is what hurt Dismal and others using the model - the non golf pieces were VERY expensive.  Early on, Dismal was not a commercial or financial success.  With no debt, we are getting there.  Coincidence?  

Another Sand Hills - Dick Youngscap built a national club but anyone who knows Dick will agree, he seldom wastes money.  He finds the most cost efficient way to do things right.  I love Dick as a friend and have learned alot form him.  Dismal strayed from the footprints - they tried to go too fancy and alienated people along the way.  

Sand Hills filled quickly as it was (1) cool and (2) not cost prohibitive to join.  <<<Number 2 is as, or more, important as anything and we often ignore it here.  Cool and expensive is...expensive.

There are two main constraints for further courses in the Sand Hills:
  1.  Shortage of people for staff - there are less than 1,000 people in Hooker County.
  2.  Cost to complete facilities for a national club.

The course is the least expensive component in this salad.  If you want outside staff, you have to add employee housing.  Dismal tried to do it all with a clubhouse to die for.  They also built 78 beds for guests, 56 beds for employees, and a huge maintenance facility.  We are lucky to have it all but there is no way we would have done it from scratch.  That is what is impacting the model, people simply spent too much.  I tried to explain that yesterday.  Statistically, the first owner of a new golf club has incredibly low chances for financial success.  It always costs MORE than you thought, members joined SLOWER than you thought, and the $$$ you can get for a membership is LOWER than you thought.  I don't like it any more than you guys and believe people should work together for it may be the path out of the mess.

If you have the infrastructure fully in place + little to no debt, a second course is fairly inexpensive and is doakable.  Stay tuned...

Is that last sentence a typo or an announcement

[Mac Plumart]

Simply incredible information on this thread.

[Chris Johnston]

Jeff - Yes

That was fast.

[Michael Dugger]

Michael - I've never heard of a club that got it absolutely right the first time.   I pointed out DRGC certainly didn't and it wsn't just the course.   Subsequent owners have little to do with Architect mistakes but rather the huge costs to build the infrastructure for a "National" club.  The cabins, and clubhouses cost a fortune above the course and there aren't any lots to pay for it.  It's 100% membership fees that pay the freight - the old way with new costs.  Folks today don't like the cost and, yet, the bill must be paid.  That is what hurt Dismal and others using the model - the non golf pieces were VERY expensive.  Early on, Dismal was not a commercial or financial success.  With no debt, we are getting there.  Coincidence?  

Another Sand Hills - Dick Youngscap built a national club but anyone who knows Dick will agree, he seldom wastes money.  He finds the most cost efficient way to do things right.  I love Dick as a friend and have learned alot form him.  Dismal strayed from the footprints - they tried to go too fancy and alienated people along the way.  

Sand Hills filled quickly as it was (1) cool and (2) not cost prohibitive to join.  <<<Number 2 is as, or more, important as anything and we often ignore it here.  Cool and expensive is...expensive.

There are two main constraints for further courses in the Sand Hills:
  1.  Shortage of people for staff - there are less than 1,000 people in Hooker County.
  2.  Cost to complete facilities for a national club.

The course is the least expensive component in this salad.  If you want outside staff, you have to add employee housing.  Dismal tried to do it all with a clubhouse to die for.  They also built 78 beds for guests, 56 beds for employees, and a huge maintenance facility.  We are lucky to have it all but there is no way we would have done it from scratch.  That is what is impacting the model, people simply spent too much.  I tried to explain that yesterday.  Statistically, the first owner of a new golf club has incredibly low chances for financial success.  It always costs MORE than you thought, members joined SLOWER than you thought, and the $$$ you can get for a membership is LOWER than you thought.  I don't like it any more than you guys and believe people should work together for it may be the path out of the mess.

If you have the infrastructure fully in place + little to no debt, a second course is fairly inexpensive and is doakable.  Stay tuned...

Chris,

I can't disagree with anything you've written here, makes perfect sense to me.  It seems we've gone a little off topic, however, with regards to your referencing of the clubhouse and other infrastructure expenses instead of discussing the costs associated with building the golf course over again.

If I am reading between the lines correctly, however, I think you are saying that rebuilding greens and altering the routing, redoing irrigation, re-shaping of features etc etc etc. is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of building a clubhouse, lodging for employees, etc.

I imagine you are correct, but that fact doesn't address the issue at hand.

Does an architect come back and re-do their work for free?  Is there any contractual obligation with regard to wind and rain eroding away golf holes?  Is it "chargeable" when the owner says "I'd like this green re-located over there" but not chargeable when the architect comes back and says, "Upon closer observation I think this hole would work better if we did such and such."

I'm curious what folk's opinions are in regards to what type of erroneous decision making and subsequent flawed construction constitutes malpractice?  Does anything?  Does it ever?

Or is this the wild wild west where you get what you get?

[Chris Johnston]

MD

A cost is a cost on the income statement, be it golf or f&b, or infrastructure.  They are all drops in the bucket for a dollar is a dollar.  I agree this is an architecture threat, I am trying to provide an owner view, a slightly different angle.

Post completion work...I can only speak to our case...The Nicklaus organization has been incredibly supportive to us. 

Another point to help those who have never been out here - there are golf holes everywhere.  There aren't 18 holes created.  They are found.  The challenge is there may be 1,000 choices.  C&C found 138 holes at Sand Hills within the course halo.

[Mac Plumart]

Chris...

I love your owner's perspective.  I think it is really neat to have on this site, especially with how frank you've been.

As to finding golf holes out in the sand hills of Nebraska, that is what I was so blown away with this last summer.  From the drive from Wild Horse to Dismal we saw countless golf holes one after the other with truly AMAZING natural blow out bunkers.  For anyone who hasn't seen that, it is quite something.  This is a big reason why I want to be associated with the happening in the sand hills.  It is really special.

For illustration...here is a photo of the natural landscape of the area.  This land is just sitting there, natural, untouched by the hand of man...and then blammo, there is a kick ass bunker.  Truly special land.

[Anthony Gray]

Chris...

I love your owner's perspective.  I think it is really neat to have on this site, especially with how frank you've been.

As to finding golf holes out in the sand hills of Nebraska, that is what I was so blown away with this last summer.  From the drive from Wild Horse to Dismal we saw countless golf holes one after the other with truly AMAZING natural blow out bunkers.  For anyone who hasn't seen that, it is quite something.  This is a big reason why I want to be associated with the happening in the sand hills.  It is really special.

For illustration...here is a photo of the natural landscape of the area.  This land is just sitting there, natural, untouched by the hand of man...and then blammo, there is a kick ass bunker.  Truly special land.

  Too severe

[Chris Johnston]

Blammo? 

[Mac Plumart]

Yeah...blammo.  Like kapow; boom; shazam...etc.

[Tony Weiler]

Chris, so the second course at DR will be a Doak, and not a Woods?  That is probably much more "exotic" around here! 

[Chris Johnston]

Tony

We are making progress and meeting our goals in selecting our "design partner".  Stay tuned...

It's all I can say at the moment, at least here.

CJ

[Scott Szabo]

Chris, very intriguing.  Please share more as you can...

[Chris Johnston]

Chris, very intriguing.  Please share more as you can...

Scott - were aren't out of the woods yet.  The ground needs to thaw.

[Doug Siebert]

There are two main constraints for further courses in the Sand Hills:
  1.  Shortage of people for staff - there are less than 1,000 people in Hooker County.
  2.  Cost to complete facilities for a national club.

Is the shortage of people really an issue?  Don't you think that someone who works on a golf course in a more populous area wouldn't be willing to relocate to Hooker County to work on one of the top courses in the world (which "the next Sand Hills" would be)  I mean, you probably won't get the guy living in LA even if he's currently working at some crappy CCFAD because he likes LA more than he dislikes the CCFAD, but if the guy is already living in a rural area, moving to an even more rural area won't be a big stretch for him.  Just being able to PLAY that top ranked course on a daily basis would be a pretty good draw for a lot of people.  You'd probably get a few of the retired guys in the county willing to work 10-20 hours a week for free in exchange for playing there

[Chris Johnston]

There are two main constraints for further courses in the Sand Hills:
  1.  Shortage of people for staff - there are less than 1,000 people in Hooker County.
  2.  Cost to complete facilities for a national club.

Is the shortage of people really an issue?  Don't you think that someone who works on a golf course in a more populous area wouldn't be willing to relocate to Hooker County to work on one of the top courses in the world (which "the next Sand Hills" would be)  I mean, you probably won't get the guy living in LA even if he's currently working at some crappy CCFAD because he likes LA more than he dislikes the CCFAD, but if the guy is already living in a rural area, moving to an even more rural area won't be a big stretch for him.  Just being able to PLAY that top ranked course on a daily basis would be a pretty good draw for a lot of people.  You'd probably get a few of the retired guys in the county willing to work 10-20 hours a week for free in exchange for playing there

Doug - The Sand Hills are a very unique place with great people.  That said, there aren't many single girls for the single guys and outsiders are, well, outsiders.  They are ranchers and ranchers don't really retire.  The schools are excellent but the graduating class can be less than 20.  The nearest WalMart is an hour and a half away.  You have to love the country.

Remember, you need golf course staff, golf staff, housekeepers, cooks, servers, and infrastructure people.  If it were only about staffing a course, you may be right. 

[Steve_Roths]

Chris,

Is there a chance that this a Doak/Tiger codesign?  Trying to read the tea leaves.  You mention Doak and then you mention "out of the woods".  Not sure if that was a double entendre?

[Garland Bayley]

Chris,

Is there a chance that this a Doak/Tiger codesign?  Trying to read the tea leaves.  You mention Doak and then you mention "out of the woods".  Not sure if that was a double entendre?

How about a Kelly Blake Moran design?


I hear the A&W team of Ian Arther & Mike Weir is available.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chris,

Is there a chance that this a Doak/Tiger codesign?  Trying to read the tea leaves.  You mention Doak and then you mention "out of the woods".  Not sure if that was a double entendre?

How about a Kelly Blake Moran design?


I hear the A&W team of Ian Arther & Mike Weir is available.

Grow up.

[Garland Bayley]

Chris,

Is there a chance that this a Doak/Tiger codesign?  Trying to read the tea leaves.  You mention Doak and then you mention "out of the woods".  Not sure if that was a double entendre?

How about a Kelly Blake Moran design?


I hear the A&W team of Ian Arther & Mike Weir is available.

Grow up.

So someone who often takes on the demeanor of the anti-Doak, wants to squash ideas that might lead to something other than getting a Doak course at his club. Nice John!

From the reports you read on this website, Kelly Blake has clearly shown that he can bring something interesting and different to the table.

However, if you like what Doak and C&C bring to the table (both of whom have courses in the Sand Hills), you can get philosophically like minded architects with Ian and Mike.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chris,

Is there a chance that this a Doak/Tiger codesign?  Trying to read the tea leaves.  You mention Doak and then you mention "out of the woods".  Not sure if that was a double entendre?

How about a Kelly Blake Moran design?


I hear the A&W team of Ian Arther & Mike Weir is available.

Grow up.

So someone who often takes on the demeanor of the anti-Doak, wants to squash ideas that might lead to something other than getting a Doak course at his club. Nice John!

From the reports you read on this website, Kelly Blake has clearly shown that he can bring something interesting and different to the table.

However, if you like what Doak and C&C bring to the table (both of whom have courses in the Sand Hills), you can get philosophically like minded architects with Ian and Mike.

Garland,

I'm curious, if you can be serious for a minute, would you hire either one of those guys to go with your Nicklaus course if you were interested in building a successful club of national members?  Ballyneal and Dismal are two completely different types of properties, the fact that Doak built a course in a Colorado some 3 hrs away has nothing to do with this project.  Thank God the people of California weren't so petty when Mackenzie was on the scene.