What is the point of staircase tees?

[George Pazin]

I don't know what else to call them, but by staircase tees I mean tees that, as you go back, you go up.

John Kav, I know you hate my lowly game, but how do you feel about the best golfers getting the best look at the green/fairway?

It seems to seriously undermine the multiple tee theory (which, if you've been paying attention, you know I disagree with strongly).

If you're playing from the tips, really play from the tips, not just the longest card yardage... With elevated tees, that yardage is fake.

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes indeed, George.

But if you're going to pander to a rich man's ego (the kind that wants to play from the tips) and make sure he comes back and pays for more, you need to offer him something worthwhile in return (preferably without him realizing it) -- and so some architects happily give that rich man a course that plays much shorter than the card suggests, as well as spots to hit from that are literally 'above' the common man.

Peter

[Adam Clayman]

George, As usual it's hard to make generalities, because sometimes they are well done/appropriate. But, for the most part you're right, especially when back tracking, uphill, is involved, from the previous green.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Of the tees I've seen, they mostly stink
I do not like what you describe
You'll see none of that at you know where
Cheers

[Adam Clayman]

Pazin, I'm smelling another Texas road trip. How about late fall or next winter?

[George Pazin]

Pazin, I'm smelling another Texas road trip. How about late fall or next winter?

Make it so. You have the conn.

[Melvyn Morrow]

George

Three Steps to Heaven – the only high tech item that should be allowed on a golf course IMHO.

If it really was three steps to heaven watch the carts riders run up the stairs, while checking how far they still had to go with their distance aids, bet they would still be last to get there while slowing down all others in the process.

St Peter hopefully will black ball them (with a good kick in the balls) thus refusing access due to their self-centred selfish behaviour while trying to play golf. That I hope would also be one in the eye to all those who spit on a golf course.

Three Steps to Heaven – – that’s the reason George or are you an old woman preferring the Stalls (at the front bottom level).

Another uplifting report from

St Melvyn

[Mike Nuzzo]

Make it so. You have the conn.

I thought you had the conn?

[Scott Stearns]

hard to do it otherwise-i've seen back tees below the whires-seems a little stupid to force the better players to hit OVER the forward tee.

[Garland Bayley]

Make it so. You have the conn.

I thought you had the conn?

See George, Mikey likes you.

[Matt_Cohn]

The point is that this would usually occur on a downhill hole. Holes where the view is blocked by a forward tee, as opposed to some kind of natural feature, are some of the most annoying holes in the world.

[Jason Topp]

Does anyone think it is preferable to have a blind shot from the back portion of a tee box? 

[Garland Bayley]

The point is that this would usually occur on a downhill hole. Holes where the view is blocked by a forward tee, as opposed to some kind of natural feature, are some of the most annoying holes in the world.

If you look around, you will find many courses that step the back tees up without any need to do so for visibility. My home course has been removing these unnecessary and space wasting "features".

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, That's not always true. The tee shot is downhill but the whole hole could be uphill. In those cases playing the forwards tees makes for a much better hole. The fairway features loom large and accentuate the uphill nature of the whole hole.I could cite you examples infinitum.

Scott Stearns, I don't think it's that much to ask the better player to play a shot over the forward teeing grounds. especially when it makes them feel so uncomfortable doing so.

George, This is just another one of those examples where the myth of self importance is at play. We've discussed it many times over the years, I just gave it a new name. i.e. Telling yourself it's more difficult but in the final analysis it's actually easier. And BTW, I have no wife and child. So, the ball is in your court. I won't be available until after July 1, but, I'd rather visit when the weather up north sucks.

[Peter Pallotta]

Slide it back and over twenty yards to the left if the hole turns left or back and over twenty yards to the right if the hole goes right. Make it a longer shot and a harder shot.  ANY hole will be a downhill hole if there are stairs (or rock steps) that take you 30 paces back and up some artificial mounding.  We see it all the time on new courses. For the first 70 years of golf in Americas you saw it, well, almost never.

P

[Ryan Farrow]

I don't know of any architect who would not do staircase tees.... its a natural and logical choice for any downhill hole. On flat ground, of course you do not want the tees in front to be higher as some players hit very low shots, or very poor shots, it just adds insult to injury.
They help show the golfer more of the landing area, bunkers, etc...  visibility off of the tee is not a bad thing. Sometimes it gets outrageous and overdone and looks silly, but at the end of the day, nobody but us would notice an excessively built up back tee... what people do notice is when the tee in front of them is higher.


I'm not buying the extra yardage theory, most of the time it is only a difference of a few feet.... and the forward tees are typically so far in front, the lack of elevation is not a big deal.... plus who plays a match where you are playing 3 sets of tees in front of your playing partner?

[Adam Clayman]

plus who plays a match where you are playing 3 sets of tees in front of your playing partner?

All the time. It really evens things up for some of us.

[Wade Whitehead]

Implied in George's post is that angles matter.  On courses where tees simply stack behind one another they don't tend to.

It's true that the hole may get prettier as one climbs back and up, but it doesn't necessarily get better.

WW

[Bill_McBride]

I don't know what else to call them, but by staircase tees I mean tees that, as you go back, you go up.

John Kav, I know you hate my lowly game, but how do you feel about the best golfers getting the best look at the green/fairway?

It seems to seriously undermine the multiple tee theory (which, if you've been paying attention, you know I disagree with strongly).

If you're playing from the tips, really play from the tips, not just the longest card yardage... With elevated tees, that yardage is fake.

When I thought of awful elevated tees, Oakmont #4 came to mind.

[Doug Siebert]

1) Architects like making holes with downhill tee shots (because most golfers prefer them)  You can't have the back tees be on the far side of the hill, so they end up on the top (or at least closer to the top)

2) Courses built on expensive land or cut out of forests try to minimize the amount of land they are using & clearing.  It might make a more challenging hole from the back tees to have the tee shot on the same level (or even below) the forward tees, but off at an angle, but if you have to clear and utilize several more acres for just that one hole, you probably don't do it if you have some sort of budget.  Or at least you only do it on one or two holes.  I'll bet there are a lot more staircase tees on courses cut from forests or built on expensive land than on cheap land that was already cleared (think new course in California versus new course in South Dakota)

3) Realization that some people playing the back tees do not belong there.  Thin nearly topped shots aren't so disastrous from up on high (well, this applied before big headed drivers and the consequential high tees made topped shots mostly a thing of the past for those with handicaps under 20)

4) If you really don't want the guys on the back tees to have an advantage from their shot that's more downhill and has a better view, just make it a big longer than you would have otherwise done...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Most of you guys on this board only see golf course architecture through one dimension. Golf course design is about doing the best you can within a BUDGET in the real world. Not all golf courses or parts of courses are ideal. The staircase tee often represents the best value for that situation.
The staircase tee is often just the same as a singular tee but the stepping aspect aids the construction process and as mentioned allows visibility, remember it possible to have blind downhill holes.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The staircase tee is usually the result of the golf course architect trying to match the tees to the topography as well as he can.

Quite often tees are placed on the side of hills, not only because of the better overview, but also because the flatter areas of the terrain are reserved for the landing areas.The inclined terrain are usually played over or carried, thus tees in the side of a hill.

As already pointed out, without the stepping, the visibility would be severely compromised from the back of the tee.

The aesthetic consideration  should also be taken into account – imagine one large flat tee platform sticking out of the side of a hill – great for a rocket launcher?
A much better solution is a series of tees matching the inclination

In my opinion the primary concern should be to fit the tee into the natural terrain as well as possible, even if the general shape of the tee is not necessarily pointing in the direction of the green

 - now that’s controversial !!!

[Sean_A]

The biggest problem with stepped tees is that angles are eliminated from consideration - no different from runway tees in that respect.  From an aesthetic PoV often times there isn't enough space to employ them.  This look is especially troublesome when more than two levels are used.  To me, stepped tees need lots of space so wild vegetation can grow between the area.  Otherwise, why not just use a smallish flat area or if the site demands it a mini runway style?  Because stepped tees are more or less a style which is used for modern courses they  put a course in a place in time rather than offer a feeling of timelessness. 

Burnham has recently built a new the for the 13th which not only destroys the angle of the tee shot (by far the biggest crime), but is also out of place as it is stepped.  I don't think folks looked around the course to discover what the other tees looked like before embarking on the project.  If they did do, they must have closed their eyes as to the prevalent style.  All the other "stepped" tees use their own platform (and many are hidden because of this) so they are not really stepped in the way suggested for this thread - which is a good thing imo.  Burnham has some of the best teeing areas in golf not only for how they blend but because of the various angles on offer. 

Of course, I take the view that tees should be the most inert area of the course.  They are simply a place to start a hole and should not draw attention to themselves except as good models of inertness and as possible backdrops to previous holes - tee hee.  I am not sure many archies take the same view. As always, there are exceptions to PoV.

Ciao

[Tim Nugent]

When one says "stepped or staircase" are they referring to one "tee" with a step within the sufrace or a seriies of tees that the "step" down a slope?
I have a personal distaste for any tee the is more than 1 foot above the access side. Some basic items to consider.
1) a tee should be big enough to be able to spread out the wear
2) a tee should be big enough to be mowed with a riding tri-plex
3) a tee's width should be a multiple of the width that the tee markers are customarily placed
4) tees should have a cross-slope of at least 1%
5) on a slope, the tee elevation should be as close to the natural mid-point elevation as possible. This cut on one side/end and fill on the
    opposite will not only achieve a more natural look, it will limit the area of construction.  Rookie mistake is when you see a tee where the fill begins at the back elevation, resulting in many feet of fill at the front.
6) the tee should have a flat area around it to allow for equipment to be turned around.  Tees that have sharp drop slopes just off the surface
    make maintenance more difficult and time-consuming

As for vision, a golfer's sightline starts about 5' above the ground.  Most architect worth their salt will run sightline profiles to insure that there is unobstructed views to the fairway features.  Ironically, it is on the desired slightly downhill hole that tees can appear to look like aircraft carrier flight decks and the main reason tees are staggered. This is not much of an issue on drop-shot holes.  The architect should let the natual slope of the terrain dictate the slope of the tee surface for drainage. All to often I see the "nails on the chalkboard" error of tees that are sloped against the grain just because someone follows the cookbook standard that all tee must slope the back-left (an old frick for imparting a natural draw stance to combat the average Chop's tendancy to fade or slice). But, on a downhill slope, this can amount to the front of the tee being raise a net of 2' from that of a downhill sloped tee. Not only does this give an unnatural appearance, that added height in the front must be overcome by the tee behind it.  This leads to a domino effect.

Conversely, it is the rear of tees on uphill holes that must be considered.

A final consideration is how the surface drainage relates to the access side of the tee.  Ideally, one should access the tee from the high side. Not only does this make for amore natural feeling transition, surface water drainage will not collect in a heavy wear area (leading to compaction issues). A path can also serve to collect hillside water and channel it away from the tee surface.

[George Pazin]

Make it so. You have the conn.

I thought you had the conn?

I was just goofing around, throwing in a little Star Trek reference. Hopefully things will improve and I will indeed have the conn later this year, but I've been thinking that for too long now


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Lots of interesting stuff, thanks for the responses.

Adrian, I hadn't really considered it from a budgeting perspective, I suppose that makes sense.

Bill McB, I don't think the 4th at Oakmont is bad at all, but that probably isn't surprising to anyone on here who has been paying attention to my posts. I suppose if it were a recurring theme at Oakmont, like it appears to be at many desert courses, I would have more of a problem with it. Fortunately there aren't many elevated tees of the type I dislike at Oakmont.

To those who think it is a problem to hit over forward tees, why? I'm not suggesting anyone sink the tees back as you go back, stepping them down, I'm merely suggesting they be a similar height. I've hit over forward tees many times in my limited experiences, I don't see where it is a problem.