Seaview Bay: How Good Is It?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Keep in mind my listing of Hopewell Valley is more about a few holes of note -- I would not include it in the same breath with a place like Morris County or Forest Hill -- the former is a Raynor - the latter a Tillinghast design.

I too share affection for Glen Ridge -- but it's more about again certain elements. The 8th and 11th holes are solid par-3 holes -- interestingly they are right across from one another.

The closing par-4 18th is a tough one -- especially into any westerly breeze.

JNC:

If you google Morris County and study the layout -- the course is about three section of six holes apiece. The first six are the place where you most go low to score -- the next six are where you try to hold on to what you achieved and the final six are a good blend of the first two elements.

I would have loved to include Somerset Hills in the mix but it falls just beyond the 6,500 yard cut-off. JNC, when you speak about unique and fun greens - play SH when they start to hit 10+ on the stimp -- very e-z to three wack at-will when playing there. One other thing -- the final hole there is even weaker than the closer at CP in CA.

When you play the aforementioned courses you will begin to appreciate (I hope you will) why I believe NJ has a range of courses that offer a good bit more than the Bay.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I'm not really familiar with the fee structures at Deal and Worplesdon, but if you play as a guest of a member at either place, the fees are nearly identical.

NC

I understand about guest fees, but I prefer to be able to play golf without having to feel a need to place a call.  If the course/experience is good enough I don't mind paying the green fee.  Luckily I am of the opinion that there are a great many wonderful places to play which don't require a mortgage payment like green fee.  I only want to rent the course for a day, not make a first payment toward memebrship. 

Matt

Some people are better wired to figure out the essence of a course and can do so in a play.  Some people may not figure it out in ten plays.  Quality review is not all a numbers game though it should be of great help to most people.  Then there is the importance of getting one's ideas on the page.  If a guy can't explain what he means he doesn't really understand it. 

My only interest in SB was as a possible venue to play if I were ever in the area.  It probably sounds freaky, but I do keep lists of courses for areas I may visit in the future.  I don't get too crazy with it, just some notes of why the course may be worth a visit. 

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

I don't doubt there are people who won't be able to speak about the nature of a golf course even if they played it 100 or more times.

But the original premise I mentioned still stands -- those who are capable in doing a review -- will gain more insight from multiple plays rather than a single one. Candidly, I think you have missed the boat on the Bay -- you have taken the comments of some people and not really bothered to really understand what I have mentioned. Fair enough. Like I said before -- you are free to decide what you wish.

I simply stated that if you had a group of people who came to Pennard and played it once and made such comments -- and then when held against the likes of someone -- like yourself who has played there multiple times -- the former group could not fully understand the natiure of the course from a singular visit when held against you. The same applies to me with the Bay, the comments I provided on it and the range of courses -- in a similar situation -- that I have brought forward as a showcase.

If you do keep such a listing -- then do yourself a huge favor and broaden it a bit to include those in my backyard that I have played multiple times for well over 35+ years. But then again -- what the hell would I know about courses in the state I live.

[Sean_A]

Matt

Again, it depends on the person.  As an example Ian Andrew and myself had a convivial exchange concerning Pennard.  I could fully understand some of his concerns, especially centred around safety, even if I disagreed with him.  Whether or not Ian would ever change his mind with further visitss is a question only he can answer, but first impressions are often difficult to overcome. 

I also had an exchange with Ben Stephens concerning Pennard.  I strongly disagreed with him because his main concerns were blindness and unfairness.  Well, it wouldn't matter who it was - if they mention unfairness I will give them no quarter.  I also thought he was incorrect about blindness and suspected he drove the ball very poorly to hold his opinion. 

But mostly, my stance had nothing to do with number of plays.  It was about retaining what makes Pennard, Pennard.  Rectifying the issues raised by the chaps would have gone along way toward eliminating what makes the course unique.  That can be seen in a single visit.

So far as I can tell from your comments concerning SB, you think the course is too short given the nature of the greens.  The reason SB intrigues me is I am not in the least bothered by short yardage or the supposed link between shorter holes having more involved greens.  I know JNC and the sort of stuff he liked in the UK and feel as though he is a good sounding board. 

Ciao

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

   How much does routing factor in your analysis? I ask because I believe you are a fan of Galloway Nat'l. I can't stand that routing and that diminishes my felling for the course. The Bay went all over the place taking advantage of the terrain and the wind with proximity of green to tee.

[Mike Cirba]

While I think this is an interesting discussioni/debate, I think it misses the historical context and importance of Seaview and what it was intended to be, as well as how it evolved, or didn't.

For instance, Verdant Greene wrote the following around the time Seaview opened, and made clear the purpose of the course.




Seaview had its inception around the beginning of 1913.    After the course opened formally in January 1915 (play on the course started in July 1914) Geist had a bit of a change of heart and brought in Donald Ross to "stiffen" the test with the creation of new bunkers.   He also brought in a famous pro, Wilfrid Reid, as well as a top Superintendent in William Connellan at the time.   Wilson had resigned as Greens Committee chairman at Merion in December 1914, citing the need to focus on family business after having designed Merion East, Merion West, Seaview, as well as co-designing North Hills in the previous three years as a part-time, "amateur" architect.

Some of Ross's proposed bunkering was completed, other proposed changes were not.  

WWI intervened and not much happened with Seaview over the years, except for the creation of a William Flynn designed third nine, and Geist's attentions went south to his developments of Boca Raton.

So, today at Seaview, you have essentially the same course that Hugh Wilson routed and designed with additional bunkering by Donald Ross as those 1914-15 players were dealing with using hickory shafts and vintage golf balls.

Its 6100 yards, flexible at that time up to 6,400 yards at sea level on a very windy but flattish site, was never lengthened over the years.  In many ways, it is similar to Merion West in that regard, although the latter on more challenging topography is a bit shorter still on total card yardage, if not in playability.

What's happened at Seaview over the years is that the greens have shrunken considerably...a few were also sadly moved and/or changed dramatically  in size and context, a bunch of evergreen trees were planted in the 1950s, but all in all the charm and interest that was intended originally is still a big part of the attraction.

For a course to be large part musuem 100 years later, and still be a Doak Scale 5 is to me saying a LOT.

If you're an architectural history nerd like some of us here, it's a treasure.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

A Doak 5 ?

Re-read the definition and let me know what makes it worthy of being one step beyond what number I gave it -- a Doak 4.

If people see the Bay as "charming" my God -- they should head immediately to the ones I mentioned that are of equal length.

Mike:

First off -- happy birthday -- even if its belated !

Good question / re: routing. After the actual land that a course occupies -- the next important ingredient for me is routing. Routing demonstrates the ultimate skills in any architect to get the most out of a given property.

You'll have to tell me in greater detail why you can't stand GN's routing.

The Bay does have movement of the holes but it's the quality of the individual holes themselves which is quite limiting. Courses can be under 6,500 yards but never give you the impressions of repetitive characteristics. I like a few of the short par-4 but it's a big time stretch for people to label them as All-NJ golf holes or anything close to that. Ditto for the par-5's which are quite pedestrian in their presentation.

Sean:

Please stop it - you haggle on points that are quite straightforward -- yes, there are those RARE individuals who can encapsulate the nature of a course from simply one play -- the percentage of those folks is tiny -- frankly very small indeed. Those who are keen observers are the first to admit that the first impression(s) will need another visit to confirm or refute what was originally seen.

As I said before -- multiple plays -- in different times of years and with different weather / wind patterns exposes the course to the fullest range of critical reviews.

In your own comments about people who made one time visits -- it's likely that a subsequent replay would have added a good bit more to their understanding. One time visits -- such as at the Bay at Seaview -- or any other person provides for a view of what is there but minus the especially keen eye there are plenty of storylines about the course that will be missed.

My comments are far beyond just the comment on lack of length at Bay. You need to re-read what I posted -- the course has allowed outside features to clutter up the place and Mike Cirba's comments speak to that. The redundancy of the holes is also an issue. Even short courses to do provide a wonderful pace whereby holes will not permit sameness or bland repetitive shotmaking to dominate.

Should you ever come to the NJ area -- there are other more richer and more diversified layouts that are not long but have less of the overall deficiencies that they Bay provides.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

I've done as you suggested and yes, I'm quite comfortable that it's a Doak Scale 5 as opposed to a 4.

There were some big hitters in our group and I'm confident that no one felt that they were lacking "sufficient challenge".


4. A modestly interesting course, with a couple of distinctive holes among the 18, or at least some scenic interest and decent golf. Also reserved for some very good courses that are much too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished golfers.

5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

We will likely quibble on the exact #.

I don't know when you say "big hitters" what that specifically means.

And, my point on the Bay was not tied to the insufficient length there alone.

If someone were in the vicinity of AC - I would not have the Bay among the first ten choices I can name.

Given all the work elements you mentioned -- the potential is there but plenty of courses can say likewise.

[JNC Lyon]

5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska.

Upstate New York feels like Alaska sometimes.  Maybe that's why I made the trip to see it.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

As long as Shore Gate isn't in your Top Ten Regional Recommendations, I'm sure we're pretty close in our points of view.   

[Gary Slatter]

Matt, I have not played other area courses, as I like Seaview and enjoy returning.  We didn't stay in the area and enjoyed the drive from Wilmington.  To me it is classic, and remains to be what it was originally designed to be.  Our game has evolved, it's nice to play courses that haven't.   Courses are like friends, I prefer saying hello to old friends rather than making new ones.  There are occasions when I seek out new ones, both courses and friends.  That's how I ended up at Wolf Creek. and RC.

[Kyle Harris]

I've encountered with Seaview that it's one of those places you always mention as option in return plans to the area.

"Hey, next time we're down here let's get back to Seaview."

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I remember quite vividly what Shoregate was about.

Amazing day we had back when -- what's happened to Dr. Childs ?

The AC market, fortunately, does have some solid golf options available -- both private and public.

Curious to know Mike -- how many of the under 6,500-yard recommendations I made that you have played. Comments ?

Gary:

Hear what you say -- enjoy whatever course you choose to play.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

I've played Riverton and Glen Ridge, both quite enjoyable, thanks.

I'm hoping to get to a few others this year on your list.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Be sure to play Morris County and Forest Hill -- the closing par-3 at FH is vastly underrated although I am quite confident folks like Pat Mucci and George Bahto can fill in the details.