Seaview Bay: How Good Is It?

[Jaeger Kovich]

I haven't played ACCC yet, but I'm hoping to see it Sunday. My bullet point review of Seaview is on the Cabin Fever thread, but since I cant post pictures here at the moment, you can follow the link to my new site for my full thoughts.

http://golfmeisterproductions.com/SeaviewBay.php

[Joe Bausch]

I haven't played ACCC yet, but I'm hoping to see it Sunday. My bullet point review of Seaview is on the Cabin Fever thread, but since I cant post pictures here at the moment, you can follow the link to my new site for my full thoughts.

http://golfmeisterproductions.com/SeaviewBay.php

I would prefer to think of the architects as following Jaeger:  Hugh Wilson (not Flynn!) and Donald Ross.

:-)

[Jaeger Kovich]

WOops... duh!! good thing I dont go near any Merion threads!

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Well said on Brigatine -- the only missing ingredient is highlighting how much the mosquitos love eating up golfers who play there.

Kyle:

Do yourself a favor -- instead of being a prosecutor -- offer your take.

I went into detail on a number of holes at the place and I offered my perspective in having been going to Seaview for well over 30 years. I see it for what it is -- nothing more -- nothing less.

You've played the verbal joust game previously and it's tiresome -- see your attempt at listing the best of public golf in the greater phila area as proof positive of your own limitations. I provide my opinions -- based on playing of the course(s) and usually in plenty of instances after numerous rounds played.

The same type of hole is presented again and again at the Bay with minor deviations -- the greens are decent but they are far from special or noteworthy and the terrain is held back because of tree inclusions. Read what Tony spelled out -- plenty of work could be carried out that would make the place a good bit better. In my take of NJ public golf the Bay would be lucky to sniff a top 20 position. It's old time classic which you nostaglia types here just drool over. More of the "what might be" than what actually is.

The executive tag is merely my way of stating how limited the course is. Does it match verbatim the industry tag -- no it doesn't. But frankly it's no different than when people apply the term slog to any course they can't play because they have a pee-shooter tee game.

[Anton]

Oh the mosquitos just add to the experience here in Jersey.  Bunkers, water, and mosquitos make up Jersey Shore golf!

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Thanks for the clarification, I just cannot engage in meaningful discourse without knowing what it is you mean by certain terms you throw around.

For me, the golf course lacks a shot where it is necessary to execute a long approach to a green. JNC discusses the long holes but as far as relation to par, they yield an extra stroke - there is not "urgency" to hit an approach of longer than 200 yard if necessary. I consider the eighth hole to be a real miss opportunity for a longer hole. It's by far the most mundane.

I'll share my criticism of the course with an excerpt from an earlier conversation I had with JNC:

"Your assessment is okay. The thing is, I'd say 95 times out of 100, a +2 that was in your position on the 4th hole would have made a 3. The Bay Course just let's longer and better players do that too often. I shot an 84 that was a few missed putts away from being a 78, and I downright missed several full shots. The course needs firmness and some high grass areas to defend it from the long ball. The bones are there but there's a ways to go. It's a Doak 6 at most, as Cirba said. But thoroughly enjoyable."

AND

"The question we must ask ourselves is whether or not the toughness is derived from a set of different challenges or one or two sets. In many ways Seaview Bay commits the same error that Matt Ward's preferences commit, but in the exact opposite way. A scratch golfer would find himself in your position on 4 probably 3-4 times per round there."

To provide you the context, JNC hit a monster drive on the 4th hole that ended up just short of the green in the approach. He missed his chip due to the awkward stance and ended up carding a five. A scratch player simply will not do that, and will be afforded the chance to card threes in many similar instances on other holes.

For me, the card yardages are not necessarily formulaic since the variety in the greens do much to offer different tactical problems to the golfer (ground game, aerial game, etc.) but the better players have too many opportunities to overpower the golf course. Adding length to a hole like the eighth and the tenth would do much to counteract the distance issue.

The strength of the course, as I wrote earlier, is in the variety of the short holes, and that the two holes calling for mid-irons play much longer than the card yardage due to a different set of variables day-in and day-out.  

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Do yourself a HUGE favor -- and check out what various people have opined on the course. Compare those positions (minus you asnd JNC) and see what I have said and what they have added. Likely you will find that the same comments are being made.

The simple fact that you ignorantly (with all due respect) ignore -- is that hole variety is lacking. It's no different if a course were offerring nothing more than a tired rendition of long par-4 followed by another long par-4 -- see Firestone / South as a good example of that. Minus the 2nd hole -- which is stellar change of pace hole AND which I highlighted in my initial remarks to JNC -- the course is a repeat exercise time after time.

When I hear the glowing comments about the putting surfaces one would think you had greens which were really special. Alas, they are fairly predictable with a few variations from time to time. Read what Tony wrote again and you will see how his comments dovetail with mine.

I laugh out loud if anyone serious thinks what exists at the Bay now is a Doak 6. I'd love those folks grading my papers in graduate school. For me -- it no more than a four (4) with the potential to go up one level with some serious makeover work. The bunkering is fairly mundane in many spots and really needs a restudy in terms of look and placement to be really effective as a counterweight to ineffective shotmaking.

Kyle, play a few more of the short classic Jersey courses -- check out Morris County when you can or even a place like Maplewood in Northern Jersey. They are far more rich in the details you erroneously wax poetic about the Bay Course.

Anyone traveling from 50+ miles simply to play the Bay needs to do some serious re-evaluation of their time and available $$. AC has got a number of superior public course layouts -- the Bay has potential to improve but Kyle you are simply projecting what "might be" and have grossly underplayed the existing deficiencies in my mind -- then again what the hell do I know about Jersey golf.

[Anton]

Ugh!  You sited Firestone with its back and forth / back and forth layout.  I even hate the video game version of that course. 

Seaview, in my book, Bay Course is a 5 with the Pines being a 4 on a 10 pt scale.  Neither is great.  Both occassionally offer enjoyable rounds of golf but neither leave me wanting to return any time soon.  If you were to venture to the AC area to play quality +memorable golf then try ACCC + Sandbarrens on the public end.  On the private side definitely hit Hidden Creek + Galloway National.  All 4 of these courses I would rank at an 8 (or even higher) and are just a lot of fun any time of year.  Wildwood, Shoregate, Twisted Dunes, Ballamor are exceptional layouts that will generally be a good bit of fun to hit up.  Blue Heron is nothing overly exciting anymore. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

Shoregate ?

Ballamor ?

In the former you have hideous bunkers that look like a plastic surgeon's gone mad.

In the latter -- you have an OK layout at best.

Agree w you on HC, GN, TD and even SB with the right combo of nines there.

If one wants to talk quirky -- head over to Stone Harbor -- too bad the original 7th hole is not around anymore !

[Joe Bausch]

Dear the Fourteen Golfers that Followed My Suggestion to Play Seaview Bay Last Weekend,

     It is clear that Debbie Downer Matt Ward has presented indisputable evidence that I made a mistake in inviting you to travel large distances and pony up a large sum of money to play such an uninspiring course.  I would like to apologize and next year I will make sure to check with the all-knowing Mr. Ward before organizing the 2nd annual gathering.

     I hope you all can forgive me for subjecting you to this executive golf course.

Sincerely,
JWB
-------------

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

Who cares what I think.

If everyone has a grand time that's all that counts.

Joe, get a thicker skin -- opinions happen in this world.

I see better in the AC area -- simple as that.

[Joe Bausch]

Matt, you really might want to consider how you deliver your opinion.  It might be better received if not so haughty.

[Sean_A]

Zowie - a 6!  Considering a 7 is essentially a world class course a 6 must be a bit of a stretch for Seaview Bay - no?  A 6 is a very, very good course with perhaps as few as 300 in the world better.  I am finding this hard to believe about SB.  For instance, Doak gave the following 6s:

Nairn
Moortown
Little Aston
Both Berkshires
Worplesdon
Walton Heath New
Deal
Broadstone
Saunton
Pennard
Southerndown
Portrush Valley
Co Louth

You get the idea.  

Ciao

[Mike Cirba]

Sean,

I said 5.5 earlier, and that may be generous and I'm admittedly biased.

I think it has possibility to be a 6 but that would require new back tees, some serious green expansion, wholesale removal of cedars planted in the 1950s, and some drainage improvements in the low-lying holes.

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

I said 5.5 earlier, and that may be generous and I'm admittedly biased.

I think it has possibility to be a 6 but that would require new back tees, some serious green expansion, wholesale removal of cedars planted in the 1950s, and some drainage improvements in the low-lying holes.

You notice some of the drainage work in the process of completion?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I said 5.5 earlier, and that may be generous and I'm admittedly biased.

I think it has possibility to be a 6 but that would require new back tees, some serious green expansion, wholesale removal of cedars planted in the 1950s, and some drainage improvements in the low-lying holes.

Mike

There is no such thing as a half full glass in the Doak Scale.  If you call SB a 5.5 that makes it a 6.  It sounds like you are really saying its a 5, but that you hope it gets better one day.  Now, what for instance makes you think SB is in a comfortable neighbourhood with Merion West, Philmont North, Essex Co, Mountain Ridge, Metedeconk National & Columbia CC?  All of these are Doak 5s which are somewhat in your neighbourhood.   I don't know anything about SB, but I enjoy the discussion so long as it gets beyond generalities and rhetoric that only those in the know can have any hope of figuring out.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Sean:

Did Doak rate Huntingdon Valley early-nineties version a 5 or a 6?

[Mike Cirba]

Sean,

I'm comfortable with a 5, and for me it's in Merion West territory.   Philmont North has some great holes but is quite uneven.

Essex County and Mountain Ridge have been markedly improved through restorations in recent years so aren't a good comparision.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

Did Doak rate Huntingdon Valley early-nineties version a 5 or a 6?

Kyle

6 - it sounds like Doak didn't appreciate the front nine and if the Richard Petty description is correct this is an understandable position to hold.

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

It's not haughty -- it's just my thoughts.

If you all had a grand time playing down the middle of a public street -- more power to you.

Enjoy ...

Gents:

What Mike has said about the needed corrections fall under the broad umbrella of "serious" work.

Plenty of course with "serious" work can be improved. Whether the Bay ever does it is unknown and even if it does -- the question becomes is that really a six (6) under the Doak scale. Hard to say until it's done.

[Kyle Harris]

Sean:

Did Doak rate Huntingdon Valley early-nineties version a 5 or a 6?

Kyle

6 - it sounds like Doak didn't appreciate the front nine and if the Richard Petty description is correct this is an understandable position to hold.

Ciao

It's understandable position for playing once or twice. I'd be eager to show him around again, and point out how a few of the redundancies are not so redundant. The Richard Petty description is a bit trite, though.

HVCC and Philmont North should be a 7 and a 6, respectively.

The local courses you mentioned at 5 are all well-regarded and represent a broad spectrum of design and difficulty. Seaview Bay would complement the group nicely.

[Sean_A]

Mike & Kyle

SB sounds a winner.  Maybe if I ever visit Philly again it should be on the itinerary.  Who knows about these no name courses?  Sometimes they really surprise as did Lederach.  I think about that course often and marvel at what was built, but also wonder what could have been if the course were a stand alone project.  How does SB stand up to Lederach?

Ciao 

[Kevin Pallier]

6 must be a bit of a stretch for Seaview Bay - no?  A 6 is a very, very good course with perhaps as few as 300 in the world better.  I am finding this hard to believe about SB.  For instance, Doak gave the following 6s:

Nairn
Moortown
Both Berkshires
Worplesdon
Walton Heath New
Deal
Broadstone
Saunton
Portrush Valley
Co Louth

Sean

Seaview (Bay) is an OK course but it's not in the league of any of those above. It's a Doak 4 or 5 at best IMO.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

Well said.

Sean:

The answer to your question is simple -- night day difference between Bay and Lederach -- the Hawleysville-PA layout is rich in the kind of design details that are either non-existent at Bay or frankly held back because of existing patterns that havee been allowed to stay in place.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mike & Kyle

SB sounds a winner.  Maybe if I ever visit Philly again it should be on the itinerary.  Who knows about these no name courses?  Sometimes they really surprise as did Lederach.  I think about that course often and marvel at what was built, but also wonder what could have been if the course were a stand alone project.  How does SB stand up to Lederach?

Ciao  

Sean-

  I'm not certain that one can really compare the two, besides the fact that they're both 18 holes and accessible to the public.   I really don't know why the hell we always have to compare, contrast, and 'rank' courses.  It's just not necessary.  (Yes, Matt, I mean you.  I like you, but we don't always have to rank courses).

Frankly, and this is pointed at everybody, I'm not even sure why we still use Doak numbers to rank golf courses, as this list is close to 15 years old.  Maybe Doak gets a pass because of who he is, I don't know.  

Many here choose to harp on Seaview for its relative lack of length, because of lack of anything else to criticize.  To call a spade a spade, yes, it is shorter.  It was built around 1916 and can't go much longer.  Give it a rest.  However, many of the holes are oriented to take advantage of the wind, and wind is everpresent down here.  Some holes are into the wind, some downwind, some crosswind. 

But, executive course?  No f'ing way.  

Lederach is built within a housing development on heavy clay soil.  It has outstanding holes that the presence of housing and maintenance take away from.  This is no shot on the architect, but a shot on the management.  This course needs to be maintained dry and fast, not soggy.  Having said that, the soil is heavy clay.

This course would be outstanding if was anywhere else, sandier soil, windier site, absence of homes and retention basins.  But, it is what it is.  It's still a good golf course.  

I often wonder about courses like this--Forsgate and Lederach are two that come to mind--if you could pick them up and place them somewhere without the housing, how much more attractive they would be.  But we can't, so I'm dropping this.

Both courses are fun and enjoyable in their own right. I do think Lederach would be better on a windy or sandy site.

It's not even night and day, Sean--it's apples and oranges.  Two different things.  I have played with you, and I think you would enjoy Seaview in the way you enjoyed Mid Pines a few years back.  As I think you'd probably enjoy Atlantic City.  Come down anytime, we would be happy to have you.