Seaview Bay: How Good Is It?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

You must have glossed over what I wrote to JNC -- try it again -- it's all there.

I'm not finding the formula - just a lot of rhetoric.

Are you saying the first hole is too similar to others on the course? Which ones? Why?

I don't agree. For my eye, the "formulaic" holes at Seaview are the fourth and the twelfth. Similar length, similar greens, etc. 

I told Rory as we walked up 18 that the course was really simply missing another compulsory two-shot hole like the second. I think that's what you're saying. You just used about 200 words more than necessary to say it.

[David Federman]

IMHO the Bay Course at Seaview is a weak sister compared to the Pines. The Flynn/Toomey design outshines its bayside neighbor in every conceivable way - imagination, creativity, degree of difficulty, and just plain fun. Given the choice, I would always play the Pines.
ALthough every hole is tree-lined, the trees do not impede shots, rather they frame the holes and make the fairways appear much narrower than they really are. Each hole is separate and apart from the others; each is memorable; a great combination of 5 par 3s, 4 par 5s, and 9 par 4s of varying lengths  and configurations. I have played the Pines dozens of times and the Bay less than 7. Even after the Bay was renovated for the return of the Women's Tour event, although improved, it failed to leave much of an impression on me.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You define rhetoric because it doesn't meet your pre-conceived notion of what constitutes quality golf design.

The Bay is a diversion courser -- a sporty executive layout with flashes -- and I mean flashes - of note.

You harp on the 1st hole -- OK -- let's just say I concede that. The endless repetition is what Tony mentioned. I agree. The sad fact is that people who rave about the 6,100 type courses are no less guilty of those who only see 7,600 yard courses as a panacea.

Unfortunately, there are people here on GCA who kneel and worship the presentation aspect but fail to connect the
dots on the totality of what is presented. You did, to your credit, begin to see that with your second to last sentence regarding how important the 2nd hole is and what could have been added that wasn't.

Kyle, I've provided my take on the Bay -- you can play silly word games or split hairs. If you like it -- you and Joe can knock each other and play at to your heart's content. There are other significantly more worthy courses in the AC area tio spend one's time and $$.

[JNC Lyon]

I keep seeing these words and phrases used to criticize the Bay: "formulaic," "repetitive," "singing the same notes."  Yet I see no substance to back up these statements.

Seaview Bay has a large number of short par fours.  These holes require a drive and a short iron into the green.  However, each of these short par fours requires very different shots, and they put a variety of demands on the player as a whole.  The first hole features a fallaway green, which will lead to bogeys after seemingly well-played approach shots.  The 5th is a very short par four with bunkers fronting the green.  However, this green also slopes front-to-back, meaning the golfer has to think out his approach very carefully.  The 8th green has a similar look to the 5th, but it slopes hard from back to front, and it is defended by wetlands all the way down the right hand side.  The 10th features a brilliant bowl greensite tucked around the corner of the dogleg left.  As I found out, one misplayed shot here can lead to a big number.  The 12th, my favorite hole on the course, contains a brilliant bunkerless green that falls off diabolically on all sides.

The par fives, too, feature a solid amount of diversity.  The spine green at the 3rd, the cross bunkering and tilted green at the 9th, and the diagonal tee shot over dune-like bunkers on 18 are all interesting and diverse.  Again, your claim of "lack of diversity" among the fives speaks to the lengths of the holes only.  It does not consider the actual features on the ground, ESPECIALLY the greens.

Just because a course features holes of similar lengths does not mean the golfer will face the same challenges over and over again.  I found radically different challenges among each of the short fours at Seaview.  There is more to golf course architecture than length on the scorecard.

"The Bay Coiurse works for the masses quite well. It is ideal venue for the LPGA and the ladies can both score at times and be vexed when the wind really whips off the nearby Bay."

Matt, this quote speaks to one reason why the Bay is so good.  It provides an enjoyable test for the everyday golfer, but it can still host a professional tournament effectively.  That's high praise for any golf course.

[Mike Cirba]

In terms of architectural interest, it's probably a Doak Scale 5.5 today that could be polished to a 6 with tree clearing, green expansion, and perhaps the creation of a few new back tees.

For archie history buffs like many of us, it's probably a few notches higher given some of the vintage features still on display there.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

I use rhetoric because all you have in your appeal is pathos. Which is fine, I just wish you'd admit it. Don't use words for which you don't have a consistent meaning. That's why I harped on your calling the first hole formulaic. You said it because it sounded good, not because the first hole followed a prescribed formula, and when it came to answering my direct question on what you meant - you backed down.

As for your general thoughts, Tillinghast called them "Man-Sized Golf Courses," like Winged Foot and Bethpage Black. You like those types of layouts. They're noteworthy and excellent at identifying a substantial subset of golf skill that identifies skillful play better than most. Your problem Matt is that your view on other subsets of skill is so myopic that you draw comparisons that simply cannot be made, and that's really what sticks in my side as it pertains to the discussion between you and I. You're lumping me into something I am not. The only comment I made on the Bay Course before your participation on this thread concerned the variety in the one-shot holes. I feel this aspect of the design is the strength of the golf course. I chose to focus on this strength. Let's discuss the merits of the holes as they exist on the Bay Course, not as they compare to holes ten miles down the road.

It's tiring Matt, these threads become about the rhetoric you pump into them despite those wishing to discuss the golf course with you asking you to stick to the physical features of the place. I'd be more than happy to read what you have to say in a different context and discuss your opinions in a meta- sense as a thread here, but I think we'd all be better served to understand your line of thinking if you could actually stick to one golf course in any analysis.

I simply do not have a grasp of what skills and shots you value in a golf course.

[JNC Lyon]

In terms of architectural interest, it's probably a Doak Scale 5.5 today that could be polished to a 6 with tree clearing, green expansion, and perhaps the creation of a few new back tees.

For archie history buffs like many of us, it's probably a few notches higher given some of the vintage features still on display there.

Mike,

I think that explains part of what I like about the Bay Course.  I would rather play a fun museum piece like Seaview Bay than see a modern layout that might be slightly better in terms of maintenance details like trees and tees.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I have stated what I have seen after having played the place at least ten times over a period of 30+ years.

Let me help your misunderstanding of something.

The LPGA players CARVE up the place with scoring -- it is akin to a Hope courser that the PGA Tour players play.

Read what Mike Cirba wrote - I concur with him. There needs to be numerous tee boxes added in different spots to provide some needed upgrading that's lacking.

JNC -- read what others, who have already posted too, they see the same thing over and over. It's a fun diversionary sporty executive layout -- with flashes of interesting elements. End of story. If you are suggesting that if someone has one round to play in the AC area and they should head to the Bay Course then your head, with all due respect, is too far into the sand.

Let's debunk this thing about the 1st hole -- nice opener but please nuff of the genuflecting about it being something of real vintage note. The patr-5 holes are fairly mundane and again what Mike Cirba said applies to them too. A bit more teeth would make them more challenging without making them vastly different.

JNC -- make note of what I said -- I did mention the nature of the better holes from #10 thru #15 -- I also said how the two longer par-3's on the back should be played as is during the tournament -- something that doesn't happen.  By the way -- I have been at the event numerous times -- have you ? I've seen the nature of play and personally played the course numerous times over the time frame I mentioned. Feel free to take a different stance - but save the lecture about my word choosings for someone else. The Bay has its moments and for those who believe endless pitch shots and short iron play is high quality design -- then so be it -- for you and others like you.

I never said length is the only domain of importance. You are the one who first mentioned that element.

The reason why the event works is more so because the overall greater community of AC busts its tail for the LPGA and the overall facility is indeed a worthy place for the ladies to stage such an event. The golf course is really only a side note to those key items I just mentioned. Do yourself a favor and attend it this year to back up what I just said.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You don't seem to read the details I originally provided.

Nothing like the cheap shot routine to prove some mindless point.

I've been going to Seaview long before most on this site -- seen what the facility was really about during the glory days long before Marriott and now Troon entered the scene.

I have an appreciation for what the Bay Course is about -- but all this wax poetic talk about being so unique and special -- one would think if you had not been there that the course is really some undiscovered gem. Far from it -- Mike C said some of the same things I have mentioned -- place a few different tee boxes -- spruce up the grounds and 86 some of the trees and the place could be better. But this fantasyland theory that the course is anything close to a must play when coming to AC is overkill in my mind. If such a course floats your boat -- like I said before -- knock yourself out and play it. I'll be heading to the other recommendations I previously made and if you bothered to notice the other comments from others who have posted my thinking is more in that line.

Kyle, my "problem" is that I like the fullest range of coursers. Too many of the presentation types here on GCA -- don't like anything that they can't handle from a golf playing perspective. I have a "problem" in exposing that narrow preference point that some favor here. You like the one-shot holes -- did you read what I wrote about the two long par-3 holes on the back side and how they should play for the LPGA event? Must have missed that huh ? I've articulated quite well hole diferentiations and details. I can't help it if people are hellbent on ignoring that and simply reguritating tired and predictable stereotypes back to me.

Kyle, I have championed a far greater array of courses -- especially in my home state. Try a visit to Morris County GC in Convent Station which I really love. The place is max 6,300 yards and it's really fun in so many ways with Raynor elements that few ever discuss.

[archie_struthers]

The Bay Course is loads of fun but modern technology has rendered it pretty tame.  We just had an Atlantic Winter League Event there and the cold and wind made it play like the olden days , lots of fun.  The ball wasn't flying very far in the 30 degree weather , and the greens were partially frozen so it was quite a test that day. Lot's of good cold beer at McGettigan's afterward capped off a nice day.

The second hole played dead into the blow and conjured up visions of earlier times when it was a beastly par four , Hogan supposedly commented as to the quality of this hole. In many ways it could fit in at Seminole , it is really good.  Lots of short , fun holes . Seaview Bay would make a great members course , as many good scores make for happy players. They are obviously enlarging some of the greens , notably the !6th and 17th , and regaining some lost contour on the perimeter.  Hard not to enjoy this golf course , it just isn't real hard .....so be it!

[mike_malone]

 What makes for interesting golf is that ACCC and the Bay can sit on practically the same spit of land and yet provide a different playing experience. I would throw Wildwood into the mix as another classic effort at seaside golf that makes the Jersey shore a draw for the classically inclined player.

   I think Matt Ward's view is perfectly fine.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

You're still lumping me. Please stop. I read what you wrote about the one-shotters. I agree. I agree with Mike Cirba about the additional length and discussed it with him on Sunday. You're taking my asking what you meant by formulaic as an attack on your entire position, which it was not. My opinion is that you are a mediocre writer who has difficulty getting your point across. You use terms and words in a derisive context without stating what you mean, allowing the traditional assumed context to invoke an emotional response in your reader - the very definition of pathos - that will sway them to your view. However, your continuing to rely on that one appeal to frame your position is what kills your otherwise credible statements about the relative merits of the golf course.

What do you mean by Executive Course? Most industry sources define an Executive Course as one not exceeding 5999 yards in length. Seaview Bay easily exceeds this limit.

It's all the same with you - no internal consistency to your statements. Your finer critiques are gutted by your flourishing statements.

[JNC Lyon]

Folks, a par four of over 400 yards is still a good challenge for most golfers.  Maybe not professionals, maybe not top level amateur players, but the challenge is still there for the vast majority of golfers that don't average 280 off the tee.  4, 6, 13, and 14 will all provide plenty of length and challenge at Seaview for the vast majority of the golfing population.  I wouldn't doubt that a +2 could tear up on the Bay, but is that such a bad thing?  To me, the variety is still there for a large set of the golfing population.

For me, the argument that "technology has rendered the course obsolete" does not hold water.  New equipment measurably helps only a small percentage of golfers.  Ultimately, the defense of the course comes down to the greens, and Seaview still holds up in that regard.

[Gary Slatter]

I played the Pines in the morning and the Bay in the afternoon.  Both were good, the Bay was more enjoyable.  Our game consisted of two pros and a 16 Hdcp woman.  I would play the Bay if my choice was to play only one course in the area. 

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

The issue is -- you can't hack disagreement. So you throw people under the bus. I've been to Seaview long before you knew it existed. I liked what the previous ownership did -- before Marriott inserted itself into the process. At that time -- if you can remember it -- Seaview had charm and appeal.

I've provided sufficient depth of analysis -- the issue is I don't agree with you. That's life amigo -- get over it.

Mediocre writer -- really. My points get through to most people -- might be your eyes and ears are closed. I see the Bay for what it is -- I don't get worked up to the point in elevating it as some sort of wonderful must play course in the AC area. You, on the other hand, see a
it's some sort of gem. I've provided the appropriate context for what it provides and for what players might find interesting.

Let me point out that the Bay is a diversionary course -- it's an executive style course in my mind. You want to haggle over the total tip distance -- so be it. The course plays just over 6,100 yards. Oh forgive me -- that's a 200-yard distance -- the way you make it sound it's like the course was much, much longer.

Kyle, try to understand -- there are people who have a sense of the broader universe of golf that exists in NJ and I have placed the merits of Bay in my narrative -- you want people to genuflect to your statements and frankly you have done this petulant child dance before when discussing the best public courses in the south jersey / pennsy area previously. Nuff said.

Gary:

When you say you would play the Bay if you had "only course in the area" -- have you played others in the AC area ?

Mike Malone:

How were the mosquitos when you played Wildwood. I've been there when you could wear an EPA suit and they still would bite through the fabric.

By the way -- I'd rather play Bay over Wildwood by a smidge -- curious to know if you have played Buena Vista which is near to AC. The Gordon design has its moments of note.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

Marriott doesn't own the golf course now.  Dolce owns the resort, and Troon Golf manages the golf course.  If you are going to shred people for not playing the golf course under different management conditions, you should know and understand who manages it now.  I think the place still has plenty of charm.  We had a great time at our outing on Sunday, and there is a lot of character to the golf course and the surrounding facilities.  The cozy pro shop (albeit a temporary one) and the neighboring pub had great charm, and I know there is talk of establishing a caddie program at Seaview in the next few years.

I'm not really sure how this pertains to the golf course architecture at the Bay, either.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I know Marriott doesn't own it now and I even mentioned Troon is the existing mgmt company in a previous post. My point -- which you may have and likely missed - is that when Seaview was private years ago the place had a distinctive charm -- likely the old timers on GCA can speak to this. I didn't "shred" people -- I was shredded because I view things differently. How bout you direct the aim to other parties on that front ? Or do you withhold the arrows because you agree with that person and not I. How convenient.

I never said the course has no character or that the surrounding facilities are a waste. I simply opined one needs a bit of perspective and I've played the course numerous times over a far longer span of time than many who are quick to pontificate that I'm all wet on this one.

The Bay is a diversionary course -- it has some holes of note -- but is it worth the time and energy to plan a special visit just to play there. No.

Mike Cirba provided some important perspective -- as he often does. I would quibble with his Doak number -- likely a four (4) now and maybe a five (5) if other elements were carried out.

I still stand by what I said -- if someone had one round to play in the greater AC area -- the Bay would not be the best choice -- and I mean that when held against the other public options -- not the private ones.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC:

I know Marriott doesn't own it now and I even mentioned Troon is the existing mgmt company in a previous post. My point -- which you may have and likely missed - is that when Seaview was private years ago the place had a distinctive charm -- likely the old timers on GCA can speak to this. I didn't "shred" people -- I was shredded because I view things differently. How bout you direct the aim to other parties on that front ? Or do you withhold the arrows because you agree with that person and not I. How convenient.

I'm sure the charm of the private Seaview Bay was very cool.  However, I think it is great that the course is public access today.  I'm guessing most of wouldn't be discussing the course now if it were not open to the public.  That charm can exist at Seaview without being a private club.  Personally, I put a high value on Golden Age, public access courses like Seaview Bay.

I never said the course has no character or that the surrounding facilities are a waste. I simply opined one needs a bit of perspective and I've played the course numerous times over a far longer span of time than many who are quick to pontificate that I'm all wet on this one.

The Bay is a diversionary course -- it has some holes of note -- but is it worth the time and energy to plan a special visit just to play there. No.

Well, we had a 15-person outing there on Sunday, and everyone involved put in time and energy to plan a special visit just to play there.  I, for one, thought it was well worth the trip.  It's not Pine Valley or Merion, but I think there is a lot to learn from it.

Mike Cirba provided some important perspective -- as he often does. I would quibble with his Doak number -- likely a four (4) now and maybe a five (5) if other elements were carried out.

I still stand by what I said -- if someone had one round to play in the greater AC area -- the Bay would not be the best choice -- and I mean that when held against the other public options -- not the private ones.

[Anton]

Matt,

I agree with your perception on the Bay vs the other courses in AC.  The property is similar to that of ACCC and Wildwood but has just fallen short of being a great golf course.  Archie hit the nail on the head with technology being a huge factor to the strategy involved in negotiating each hole (shot).  On a windy day the Bay is a blast (as are most courses in the AC area).  For me, the problem with the Bay course is that the potential is there.  Every time I play that course I am left disappointed because I know how great a course it 'could' be.  The property doesnt have much movement on it but its setting would allow more of a great lowland links course.  the Ross greens are fine.  Opening up the playing corridors with tree removal would provide tons of air flow throughout the course and also open up the site lines to the skyline.  Also the bunkering on the Bay is not up to its potential.  i personally think that 'links' courses should always have natural blowout bunkers and/or pot bunkers.  ACCC did a great job of this.  It always amazes me how the bunkers at ACCC seem to punch into the greens and look as though the rest of the course was built around them.  Much like classic dunes courses.  Of course they are man-made but they always leave me with that impression.  Also the Bay has some good holes but too many have just straight cut fairways without any movement or shape to them.  Varying widths and swirls would work wonders on adding some variety to the layout.  

I dont know if you guys have done this but just look at the arial shots of ACCC versus The Bay course on Google Earth or Bing Maps.  For me, it really speaks volumes to the difference between these 2 courses.  
Also.....is the Pines course under renovation now?  That course could really use a lot of attention.  

[Anton]

Mike,

How would you rank Linwood?  It shares simalar topography and is a classic style course.  Is it ACCC level or Bay Course level?  :-)

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

   I played Buena last friday. I share your interest in it. I was restricting myself to classic seaside courses in my last post. I played Wildwood in the early spring so I did not experience mosquitos.

    

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Would love to see Buena updated -- the famed par-5 10th is often overlooked by many -- ditto for the qualities of the 2nd hole. Too bad the $$ isn't there.

Hats off to you in missing the mosquitos at Wildwood -- they are so big they could drain the blood out of a cow in 30 minutes during high season.

JNC:

Fine. If what's there floats your boat more power to you. Knock yourself out silly playing it. The issue is if people had one choice to play in the AC area -- it would not be for the overwhelming number of them the Bay -- and I am just holding the course against other public course options in that area.

JNC, there's plenty to learn about courses -- of all types. Read again what I wrote - I highlighted key holes at the course and I mentioned how well the course does for an LPGA event in which low scoring is all but guaranteed -- save for a typhoon hitting the area.

Tony:

Well said.

The "potential" is there but it would require some detailed work -- adding a bit of distance would help -- not making it anything close to 6,800 or more yards -- but getting it up so that it's not a variation of wedge, 9-iron, sw, pw, 8-iron, etc, etc, etc, -- yawn, yawn, yawn. Even adding just 300 yards in the right spots would do a big time thing for a few of the holes. Tony -- well said on the updating of the bunker presentation. The Bay has to be also cleared of trees which block the gorgeous views of the surrounding area.

[mike_malone]

 I have not played Linwood or Brigantine yet.

[Anton]

Well your not missing much at Brigantine for sure.  Linwood is pretty nice.  It reminds me of what ACCC was before the renovation.  The potential is there but the members seem very content with the course the way it is.  If you get a chance give Linwood a shot, Brigantine is "neighborhood" golf.  Houses, houses, and more houses.  :-)

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

The issue is -- you can't hack disagreement. So you throw people under the bus. I've been to Seaview long before you knew it existed. I liked what the previous ownership did -- before Marriott inserted itself into the process. At that time -- if you can remember it -- Seaview had charm and appeal.

I've provided sufficient depth of analysis -- the issue is I don't agree with you. That's life amigo -- get over it.

Mediocre writer -- really. My points get through to most people -- might be your eyes and ears are closed. I see the Bay for what it is -- I don't get worked up to the point in elevating it as some sort of wonderful must play course in the AC area. You, on the other hand, see a
it's some sort of gem. I've provided the appropriate context for what it provides and for what players might find interesting.

Let me point out that the Bay is a diversionary course -- it's an executive style course in my mind. You want to haggle over the total tip distance -- so be it. The course plays just over 6,100 yards. Oh forgive me -- that's a 200-yard distance -- the way you make it sound it's like the course was much, much longer.

Kyle, try to understand -- there are people who have a sense of the broader universe of golf that exists in NJ and I have placed the merits of Bay in my narrative -- you want people to genuflect to your statements and frankly you have done this petulant child dance before when discussing the best public courses in the south jersey / pennsy area previously. Nuff said.

Gary:

When you say you would play the Bay if you had "only course in the area" -- have you played others in the AC area ?

Mike Malone:

How were the mosquitos when you played Wildwood. I've been there when you could wear an EPA suit and they still would bite through the fabric.

By the way -- I'd rather play Bay over Wildwood by a smidge -- curious to know if you have played Buena Vista which is near to AC. The Gordon design has its moments of note.

Matt:

I've given you no opinion on the Bay Course with which you can disagree. You are lumping me with JNC and anyone else that is offering a position. I haven't given you one. I am, however, picking apart your own words to determine what is it you mean by them.

The problem is, you cannot explain what you mean by formulaic in describing the opener and what you mean by the Bay Course as being an executive course. You used these terms, not by any standard of definition, but because you know they will elicit a response. That is rhetoric.

Now, could you describe what formula the opening hole follows that makes it formulaic? What do you mean when the Bay Course is really an Executive layout? The commonly accepted definition in the industry does not match this view, therefore, I seek to understand.

Do not bother to answer unless it's about those two questions. From then, I can then compare and contrast my own views to yours. As I've said twice now - I do not understand your view.