Seaview Bay: How Good Is It?

[JNC Lyon]

We had a little bit of discussion on Seaview Bay in the Cabin Fever thread.  However, after a couple of days to think about it, I'd like throw the question out to the group.  How good is Seaview Bay?

The course has the obvious drawbacks.  Filler trees are everywhere, and they limit visibility on many critical parts of the course.  For example, the 12th, my favorite hole on the course, has a perfectly placed fairway bunker on the inside of the dogleg right.  The bunker will catch wayward lay-ups off the tee and will also challenges golfers trying to go at the green.  The bunker is ideal, but it is also masked from view by a row of trees.  The tress, most of which are very ugly in appearance, also block excellent views of the bay.  Additionally, the greens have clearly been rounded off over the years, and the club could do a lot more to recapture old hole locations.

Despite these problems, Seaview Bay is a treat from start to finish.  The course has a great collection of short par fours that remain challenging because of great green complexes.  From the front-to-back sloping green at the first, to the bowl at the tenth, to the precarious plateau green at the 12th, the short fours are compelling throughout.  In general, the course maintains its challenge at the greens.  Some were simple and subtle, like the pushed-up 2nd or the right-to-left sloping 9th.  Others were bold, such as the two-tiered 13th or the rolling 16th.  Either way, it has been awhile since I've seen a set of greens that are as consistently interesting throughout.

Although several them were in disrepair, the bunkers were also excellent.  I thought the big, flashed-up faces were bold and enticing.  The bunkers were also quite varied in placement in form.  The snake bunker at 16 was a highlight, as was the gathering bunkering to the left of 18.  The bunkers surrounding the 7th green made me feel as if I was playing through dunesland.  Unusually for many courses of the Golden era, short-carry bunkers remain in brilliant fashion on holes 2, 6, and 14.

Seaview Bay has just about everything I look for in a golf course: classic architecture (from TWO greats: Ross and Wilson), great short fours, a brilliant set of greens, engaging bunkering, and an intimate routing that encourages walking golf.  Am I crazy, or is Seaview really that good?

[mike_malone]

 Well, I've lived in the area for a long time and avoided the course mostly because of the value proposition . So, I had low expectations. The look from the first tee out to the bay and the look of the bunkers impressed me right away. Then the fallaway green brought a smile to my face. The variety of greens and 360 degree routing clinched it for me. It comes down to the fun factor for me and this course was fun. My definition of fun is encountering a variety of looks and challenges with an opportunity for recovery.

  Now I wouldn't pay $150 to play it because I don't have to. I think going back in Nov/Dec while the turf is firmer would be the best strategy.

    I was surprised to hear Rory suggest it was superior to ACCC. I'll have to think about that.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

John,

The most reliable method I use to gauge the quality of a golf course is whether or not I remember every hole afterward.

Seaview passes with flying colors.!

[Rory Connaughton]

I think the course is very good. I have no idea how it is maintained during the growing season but if it is kept reasonably firm, the lack of sheer distance is negated somewhat by the likelihood of running out of fairway not to mention some well placed fairway bunkers.  Nice to see fairway bunkers on short holes that are well placed and not irrelevant.

As for the condition of the bunkers, I think we just happened to catch the course during a time when it is not really ready for play so some of the bunkers showed signs of work but in season I suspect its not an issue.  I do think some tree removal is in order but given the proximity of the holes to one another and the fact that it is a resort course, I can't see a total removal if only for safety's sake though some could surely go.

As for the comparison with ACCC, on a match of cards, ACCC may win but I think that the stretch on the back at ACCC where things are a little too crammed in makes it close.  I would be happy to split 10 rounds 5-5.

[JNC Lyon]

The good thing about the trees as that they didn't really affect playing angles.  The fairways are plenty wide, and I don't remember a time when a tree encroached unnecessarily into an approach shot.

Do you all think the course would play better or worse in the summer months?

[Mark McKeever]

Rory,

Do you think you would you have different thougths on the "crunched holes" at ACCC if you were the only group on the course?

I think the fact that we were waiting on every shot at that point and struggling to finish before dark was more frustrating than the routing.

Mark

[Kyle Harris]

The good thing about the trees as that they didn't really affect playing angles.  The fairways are plenty wide, and I don't remember a time when a tree encroached unnecessarily into an approach shot.

Do you all think the course would play better or worse in the summer months?

In my experience, it's played better.

[Mike Cirba]

I'm not a fan of the finishing holes as revised at ACCC.

I realize the creation of the practice facility/range dictated a lot of the compromises, but I really feel the course is a let-down after #14.

As far as Seaview Bay, I recuse myself due to my supposed Wilson addiction, but I am enjoying hearing other's thoughts.

[Mark McKeever]

Final thought on the closing stretch of ACCC. I think 16 and 18 are good holes.  The final two par 3's dont do it for me.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Mark

[JNC Lyon]

I'm not a fan of the finishing holes as revised at ACCC.

I realize the creation of the practice facility/range dictated a lot of the compromises, but I really feel the course is a let-down after #14.

As far as Seaview Bay, I recuse myself due to my supposed Wilson addiction, but I am enjoying hearing other's thoughts.

I don't know about everyone else Mike, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on Seaview Bay.

[Rory Connaughton]

Mark

  I think that the holes are good on an individual basis.  I think its just a slightly awkward way to finish.  I have a lot of time for the 18th.
My guess is that they both play the best from mid September to mid October.

[Kyle Harris]

The strength of the golf course is in the one-shotters.

Those calling for a mid-iron generally play longer than the card yardage (an aspect I've found to be desirable in many one-shot holes between 150-200 yards). With a number of different variables contributing to the increase in playable yardag, it's much easier to have variety between holes of similar length. The mid-iron length holes are complemented by one short pitch-type hole, well defended with a steeply pitched green, and a longer one with a large green and inviting approach to allow a variety of different attacks by players of varying length. Additionally, the quartet represent the four cardinal directions of the golf course, with the longest playing toward the Bay.

I even think the off-balances approach is an asset as three of the one-shot holes are on the second nine. This may play hell with the handicap game even though it enhanced our own better-ball match.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

ACCC is the winner and not by that close a margin with the Bay.

Mike is correct about the conclusion but the Bay is more about a wish that it could be better than what actually is there.

Add up the Jersey public golf scene and the Bay would be lucky to sniff a top 20 position.

[Joe Bausch]

Gents:

ACCC is the winner and not by that close a margin with the Bay.

Mike is correct about the conclusion but the Bay is more about a wish that it could be better than what actually is there.

Add up the Jersey public golf scene and the Bay would be lucky to sniff a top 20 position.

Now that Matt has weighed in no more discussion is needed. 

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

Far from it -- just wanted to turn the Bunsen burner up a bit !

I really enjoy the LPGA in playing the Bay -- really good event and the course is just enough to
keep the lady's guessing.

[JNC Lyon]

Gents:

ACCC is the winner and not by that close a margin with the Bay.

Mike is correct about the conclusion but the Bay is more about a wish that it could be better than what actually is there.

Add up the Jersey public golf scene and the Bay would be lucky to sniff a top 20 position.

Matt,

What do you think are Seaview's weaknesses?  Sure, the course doesn't have a good long par five, and the par fours run a little on the short end.  However, each hole brings something different and interesting to the table.  The greens are phenomenal as a set, and the course has an excellent collection of short fours.  What makes Seaview deficient other than length for the top 5% of golfers?

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Try to realize this -- many folks here approach things from the perspective that length is the killer FOR THEM (my EMPHASIS added) when evaluating courses.

That's why a place like Winged Foot West gets so little love here. People don't really cotton to a place that beats the crap out of them or forces them to play shots they don't wish to play. That's why many members of this treehouse run like mad to play a place like Fenway -- it's Tillie lite. The same thing applies to Seaview.

The Bay Coiurse works for the masses quite well. It is ideal venue for the LPGA and the ladies can both score at times and be vexed when the wind really whips off the nearby Bay.

You ask for weaknesses -- hole diversity is one of the big ones. The layout uses the existing property well but it's basically cramped and you get a fairly predictable pattern of "been there / done that" after you play a few of the holes.  I can appreciate a good short par-4 as the next person -- but singing the same notes endlessly gets a bit much.

I really like the 2nd hole when played to its max of 435 yards. Really changes the pace from the opener which is quite formulaic.

The greens clearly are not massive and given the overall short yardage that's fine.

Overall, the par-5's are a reflection of what holes from the early part of the course's existence would be. They are just ordinary in their overall scope and challenge.

I like the stretch of holes from #10 thru #15 but I only wish the LPGA would play the 11th and 15th to max length to give the ladies something to think about. There is a short par-3 at the 17th so it make for a fine counterpoint. Arguably, for me, the 13th and 14th are the best back-to-back holes on the course. When you make players then HAVE to hit the driver for both needed length and accuracy it makes players work for the score -- instead of having repeat short irons over and over again.

The end result -- I like Bay over Pines but frankly Seaview was more of something from years ago -- I can remember viidly going to AS during the Xmas time frame and seeing all the spectacular lights that adorned the magnificent clubhouse building. The hospitality people from its previous situation with Marriott and now with Troon have taken something out of the place. Is it worth playing? For those who are OK with playing an extended version of executive golf -- by all means knock yourself out. The immediate AC area provides other layouts that offer far more if faced with just a limited and tight time frame visiting schedule.

[Kyle Harris]

I really like the 2nd hole when played to its max of 435 yards. Really changes the pace from the opener which is quite formulaic.

Which formula would that be?

[Joe Bausch]

I really like the 2nd hole when played to its max of 435 yards. Really changes the pace from the opener which is quite formulaic.

Which formula would that be?

I know I've grown tired of fall-away greens on an opening hole.  Soooooo formulaic.

[Anton]

I am a huge fan of ACCC and find it far superior to The Bay (and Pines).  The Bay is fun to play especially if you can find a hot summer day when the course is playing firm and the winds are up.  But after a few holes I find not enough variety.  I would catagorize it as being a fun course but not great. 

ACCC on the other hand is classic.  I have never found the design to be "crammed".  I love the open corridors and shared fairways (like 14+18).  There is a ton of variety off the tee and on the approaches.  Plenty of opportunites for bump and runs around the greens too.  Just overall one of the truly great 'short' courses.  Prior to the renovation I would definately agree that the course was crammed in to its property.  But since its redesign I feel ACCC has 18 wonderful holes of golf. 

Wish I could have joined you guys for the golf trips so far down at the Jersey Shore.  Hopefully later this season I'll be out there again. 

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle / Joe:

To each his own -- read what Tony wrote.

You folks are too enamored with presentation. At Bay it becomes the same repeat short story hole after another.

The Bay is a diversion course -- you go there for a hoot when the wind is really blowing -- provided the greenheads don't get too angry when the wind does blow off the Bay.

The repetition of the layout is what Tony mentioned -- it's a fine executive layout though.

[Matt_Ward]

One other thing -- if someone has ONLY one round to play golf in the greater AC area I can tell you for sure they don't pick the Bay as the first option.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Which formula does the first hole follow?

[Joe Bausch]

One other thing -- if someone has ONLY one round to play golf in the greater AC area I can tell you for sure they don't pick the Bay as the first option.

You mean if YOU have only one round to play in the AC area YOU would not choose Seaview Bay.

You simply cannot speak for others.

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

By all means knock yourself out and stand on the tee at Bay -- just means one less player at Galoway Nat, HC, Twisted Dune -- you know, the better courses in the area.

Kyle:

You must have glossed over what I wrote to JNC -- try it again -- it's all there.