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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 01:44:29 AM »
Ben, that is why I mentioned that you should be looking for a similar club with similar budget and similar conditioning.


And it's this thought process by managers that is likely to grow golf and get it back to sustainability too.  Keep promoting the guys that did it the way it's always been done.  But that's a whole different topic.  (smart-aleck emoticon inserted)

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2011, 01:48:44 AM »
Who said anything about the old ways? If new innovative maintenance is what you want, go find the club that is doing it already. Whatever you are looking for, go and seek it out. Don't just look for it on a resume.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2011, 02:02:28 AM »
Rich,

I think we're agreeing on the concept, but not the execution. 

Sure, do your homework and look at what this person has done in the past.  But don't assume quality based on conditions or where someone has worked.  Look at the body of work, how many different experiences they have and what their outcomes were at those places.  I don't know how much you know of the maintenance side of golf.  The little knowledge I have leads me to think that there is very little comparative to "flying a 747 for United vs. flying a 747 for Continental"  Variables are much more dynamic than that.  I want a guy that react quickly to dynamic situations and has done it before.  Not a guy that "has managed it that way before"

Joe Buckley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2011, 02:17:53 AM »
I've always liked the process of asking the shortlisted candidates to come take a look at the course a couple of days before the interview. This way they can identify all the areas which they feel need to be improved upon and generally create a vision of where they would like to take the course over the next 3-5 years.

Then instead of a shirt and tie interview inside the clubhouse, play a round of golf with the candidate where they can relay this vision to you, and you can ask any questions or raise any points you have about the course as you play. You can tell a lot about a person from a round of golf and in my opinion it'd be a far more productive interview than any carried out in the clubhouse.


Kyle Harris

Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2011, 05:53:13 AM »
Who said anything about the old ways? If new innovative maintenance is what you want, go find the club that is doing it already. Whatever you are looking for, go and seek it out. Don't just look for it on a resume.

Right. We get the no resume bit.

What about the talented superintendent at the muni down the road working on a budget one-third of what the club is offering but every bit as capable or even moreso of operating a higher budget properly? Your method would virtually eliminate him for consideration. Your best superintendent could very well be at a club that his working with a $400,000 budget on a golf course with 60,000 rounds per year. How do you compare that guy to the one working at the club with one-third the rounds and three times the budget, or anywhere in between?

I think Don has hit the nail on the head here.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 06:15:26 AM by Kyle Harris »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2011, 05:56:46 AM »
Talk to guys like Scott Anderson, Latshaw and Bator and find who worked under them that they think highly of.

Some of the best guys in the business learned under that group.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2011, 12:08:46 PM »
Kyle, it is all about how much risk you are willing to take on.

If you find a person who is doing exactly what you want at another place and able to lure him away, then you are virtually eliminating any risk.

Of course, it may take more money to do that (as motivation for that person to leave his current position). So you are trading risk for more money.

If you want to spend less money, you have to take more risks. That talented supe who is doing more with less may work out great. Or may be his work never really gets better with more funds. You are taking that risk.

All I am trying to say is evaluate the person by evaluating their work, not by what they say or what the resume says. Closer their work is to what you want, less risk you are taking.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 12:11:54 PM by Richard Choi »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2011, 12:43:16 PM »
David,

You have already received a great group of questions. But I would ask YOU this question: has your committee agreed upon the qualities that you are looking for? Have you identified and prioritized the needs of your club and the course?

I think this is absolutely critical. For example, if you are looking for a hands on guy who can grow grass and stick to a budget, but other guys on your committee want a guy from a "name" club who can write beautifully, you not only will have trouble in the selection process, but you may be setting up the new super for problems.

I am a big believer in listing every task/need and each committee member assigning some type of weighting of importance. Once those results are calculated, you can look at the list, battle it out if needed, then go find the guy who best fits your agreed upon needs. (Not the guy who bowls you over in the interview process.) Once you know your needs, your interviews can ignore issues/strengths and weaknesses of each candidate that are not important.

I've been involved in hiring a club GM and two school superintendents, and the one time we did not perform a rigorous internal needs analysis, we made a bad hire and it was a disaster.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 12:45:44 PM by Bill Brightly »

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2011, 01:01:02 PM »
I've always liked the process of asking the shortlisted candidates to come take a look at the course a couple of days before the interview. This way they can identify all the areas which they feel need to be improved upon and generally create a vision of where they would like to take the course over the next 3-5 years.

Then instead of a shirt and tie interview inside the clubhouse, play a round of golf with the candidate where they can relay this vision to you, and you can ask any questions or raise any points you have about the course as you play. You can tell a lot about a person from a round of golf and in my opinion it'd be a far more productive interview than any carried out in the clubhouse.



Very insightful.  Although this should be IN ADDITION to an inside interview.  That inside interview will give some insight on how the candidate will interact in Board/Green Committee meetings.  The inside interview should follow along the lines Jason outlined - very good.
A couple of other things to consider. IF the last super left or way let go - identify the reasons.  
Ask the candidates to submit a 1,3 and 5 yr operating plan with no direction from the club.  This will give you a unbiased insight into what the candidate feels is right and wrong with the current state of affairs.  It will also give you some insight into what resources he/she feels will be necessary to do the job.  If candidate A wows everyone but comes in with a Augusta-sized plan and you know that isn't reality, you may want to go with candidate B.
Architects are choosen by this RFP process all the time.  Clubs want someone to come in who doesn't have blinders on and come up with their own assessment.  Many times you hear members say, "I've been here 30 yrs and I never saw that".
If you go this route  AND give the candidate the resources outlined, you now also have a set of criteria (prepared by the super) in which to judge whether or not he/she is preforming at the level committed to in the interview. If they prepared a unrealistice operating plan in order to look good and get the job, you will know real fast.

Also, just posting a job isn't the best way to find the best guy for the job.  Reach out to people in the industry (like Don M alluded to) but be careful! This is an really small world and big rumor mill.  And don't get too caught up in salary amounts, you are hiring a plant manager in charge of your factory.  He keeps the factory (golf course) running so it can produce your product.  Think of your golf course as $10 million asset.  Are you willing to risk that asset for 10 or 20 grand?  A good candidate who's current club is happy with him shouldn't even be thinking about leaving for anything less than 120%.  Besides, some of the better ones can make due with alot less money.  For example, Assistant for Big Time CC might take the job for $20k less than Veteran from Mgmt Co. Daily Fee, but our Vet, used to tight budgets, know how to employ Best Management Practices and only sprays when an area reaches a threshold, while our Assist only knows how to spray preventatively wall to wall every 21 days.  Over the course of a season, our Vet may have used only 1/5 the chemicals.
Coasting is a downhill process

Michael Vogt, CGCS, CGIA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2011, 03:16:42 PM »
David:

If you plan on hiring a golf course superintendent do yourself a favor; talk to a local superintendent with a good reputation in your area. This super will know who is good and how is not. Offer to pay the local super a few bucks to get his inside knowledge on the list of candidates. Our business is relatively small and after my 30 years, I can say I know most of the good superintendents in the business, big budgets and small budgets, great private clubs and less than highly managed tracks.

The decision on hiring a superintendent is big; the success of many clubs in our current economy is dependent on course conditions (member satisfaction).

I am a golf course consultant now if you would like additional information on what makes a good superintendent feel free to contact me (No strings).

Good luck, Mike

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 03:58:10 PM »
"Our members demand a lush green golf course but also want it to play fast and firm, our subsoil is clay... how do you deliver that product on a daily basis?"

If he does not laugh or walk out... you have your guy.


Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 04:03:54 PM »
Don is spot on in his analysis.

In my experience, having hired a few supers in my day, I've found that there are two types of superintendent candidates:
1- Trim and Clippers - These guys hate surprises, but are meticulous and very well organized.  They are excellent at maintaining a condition, but can be struggle working with unorganized or ever changing goals.
2- Tinkerers -  These guys are constantly flying by the seat of their pants and trying new things, pushing the envelope and chasing speed or improvements.  Their downside is very few of completely finish their projects.  They are excellent at grow-in and roll with the punches and weather variables.  You have to baby sit their spending though.

A couple questions I'd ask of any candidate would be:

1- What kind of recording method do you use to track applications, management programs etc...
2- Would you rather take a Greens Committee member or manager on a tour of the course or sit down and discuss a list of concerns / questions?
3- How have you tracked your performance against your budget in years past?  Follow up, do you need a budget?

One of the traps with BOTH pros and supers is the guy who is looking to come to your facility and make his name on your dollar. It happens way to often.

2 cents,

Good Luck!

JT
Jim Thompson

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2011, 04:04:45 PM »
"Our members demand a lush green golf course but also want it to play fast and firm, our subsoil is clay... how do you deliver that product on a daily basis?"

If he does not laugh or walk out... you have your guy.


I'd under water and use lots of iron!!
Jim Thompson

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2011, 04:57:30 PM »


One of the traps with BOTH pros and supers is the guy who is looking to come to your facility and make his name on your dollar. It happens way to often.


For arguments sake I would say that if either did a job good enough to make their name then the facility would have benefitted. Sounds like "bitter member" lamenting about their club paying "the help" more money than they made in a given year.

Priorities can be quite the sharp double edged sword.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2011, 05:19:27 PM »
Greg,

Just proves that things are not always as they "sound' or "appear".  As a course builder, owner and operator, not a "bitter member", I think it is fair to warn greens committee members of the pitfalls. No more, no less. The true stories I could tell...

Thank you for reminding me why I took the self imposed one year ban from posting.

JT
Jim Thompson

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2011, 05:25:00 PM »
Greg,

Just proves that things are not always as they "sound' or "appear".  As a course builder, owner and operator, not a "bitter member", I think it is fair to warn greens committee members of the pitfalls. No more, no less. The true stories I could tell...

Thank you for reminding me why I took the self imposed one year ban from posting.

JT

Jim,

Please do not take it personally... simply reminded me of a particular Oakmont member ripping Bob Ford for his newly signed contract back in the day.

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2011, 05:38:21 PM »
These are my keys:

1.  Make sure he learned his trade at a club with similar traffic, budget and growing conditions.  Don't hire the assistant from Oakland Hills to manage the turf at a small facility in SC or another hot place.  A club I was familiar in DC hired someone who worked at a prestigious club on Long Island.  Disaster.
2.  If you are in the transition zone or a hot climate, grill him on his hand watering regimen.  Ask him WHO does it and WHEN they do it.  Time and time again the difference between a good supe and a bad supe is hand watering.  I have seen it at least 8 times in my 15 year career as a GM.
3.  Make sure he can navigate a spreadsheet.  That is all you need to stay on budget.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2011, 06:34:51 PM »
Roger,
With all due respect, I hate your list.

1. Why do super's get pigeon holed? A guy who can think, prepare a plan, and put in the effort to implement the plan can succeed in any climate and with any grass. That's like saying an architect who worked on clay can't build on sand. BS. Hire smart guys who can build a solid agronomic plan within resources available and then let them work the plan. One of the worst things we do in golf is limit who we hire based on where they have worked. Where they have worked in not near as important as what kind of work they did. Your first key is just a way to limit the field and IMO not very smart. For every example you cite I'll find 10 that show its a lot more about the guy then the grass or club he came from.

2. 8 times in 15 years? Sounds like you either move around a lot or go thru a lot of supers. Hand watering is important, but what is really important is paying attention and knowing how to direct a crew. Finding a guy with a soil probe in his cart and good leadership and communicative skills is better then trying to determine if he knows how to hand water. Do you grill your chefs on how to reduce a sauce?

3. Staying on budget is cake. Developing a budget based on a solid agronomic plan takes skill. There is a huge difference between the two.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hiring a Super
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2011, 09:45:09 PM »
So often on here it seems that supts or pros easily take offense when a remark is made such as the remark Jim made regarding someone making their name at your expense....they shouldn't....what he is saying is a problem so often....
The club where I play is an ODG course run by a board impressed with resort golf....as with all places members and golf are down....club probably has problems but they don't know it yet....but we just go to plastic tees at 2.5 time the cost of wood...and when I bring it up am told it will save us money because members will use less and it is better for the mowers....do they think we are al stupid....the issue is..they are not being a good steward of the club's money....and that is just one small example....but it permeates many of our clubs and the clubs don't know it....
If you ever want to see a pro or supt or architect really do it right and get the most bang for the buck...let them run their own place on a daily basis....
As one guy says...you will never know you have a good supt until you have had one....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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