New Template Holes

[Mac Plumart]

http://ianandrewsgolfdesignblog.blogspot.com/

On Ian Andrew's blog he had a post a few days ago called "The Ideal Holes".  In the post he reviews the template hole idea and how CBM traveled around the world to pick which holes to, essentially, copy or template.  But here is the kicker, Ian asks what holes would you template, if you were to go on that journey today. 

So, essentially, staring with a blank slate and assuming CBM never did his template hole trip...you take off on worldwide trip to see the greatest holes and you get to pick 18 to "template".  Which ones would you choose?

I picked 18 at Inverness as a "new" template hole.  Short par 4, crazy bunkering, and a green with a wild, wild tilt to it.  I think the hole is great and it could be duplicated quite easily.  At least, I think it could.




What say you?

[Cristian]

Foxy at Dornoch and Riviera 11 could be done on mosrt sites.

[Mac Plumart]

Cuscowilla 5 is pretty cool and repeatable, I think.

Again, short par 4.  Off the tee you can play out to the right of a big fairway waste area/bunker and have a longer approach shot into the green. Or you can try to carry the waste area and have a short chip into the green.  Risk/reward.  But here is the kicker, you really need that reward if you want to score well, because that green is a big time shell-backed green and the longer you have on your approach shot the more exponential your risk of failure, in regards to holding the green, become.

[Carl Nichols]

10 at Riviera?

[Mac Plumart]

Carl...

Don't you mean...

10 at Riviera!  Man, that hole is sweet!  Since Riviera might be the best "designed" course in the world, taking a "template" hole from that course makes a lot of sense.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would have to give this some thought, but the Island Par 3, Driveable Par 4, Cape Hole (Par 4 or 5) and a Par 5 modeled after Augusta 13/15 would seem to be the most obvious modern ones.  I think the alternate fw and Redan green are also still great templates.

I have my own personal templates including the long par 3 and 4 with small greens, and a few other template features, like certain tee shots (canted fw, carry bunker, center bunker, etc.) and even certain more favored greens.

And of course, there is the all time over used template of "bunker left-bunker right."

[Mac Plumart]

I think the Island par 3 would be selected as well, much to my chagrin.

Other holes I like in this regard are:

Pete Dye's diagonal carry tee shot

Here is a shot from Kiawah where he uses this idea, but I've seen him use it many times on other courses as well.



Pete Dye par 3's with a fairway leading up to the side of the green and a hazard (usually water) directly in front of the green

Here is 3 at Pete Dye Golf Club of WV.  He's got another one of these on the the back nine, one at Paitue Wolf, and a neat one at Kiawah Ocean (5) but the water is replaced with a bunker.



How about the Ross angled green approach?

Seminole 4


Pinehurst #2 5




Inverness 7...I don't know if it could be easily templated, but man is it sweet.



Would you guys consider these templates of the Inverness 7 meanding creek concept?

Rivermont 7


Shadow Creek 15



And what about holes you should never template?

The Chris Cupit, I think it is a good idea to have a 508 yard par 4 with an uphill teeshot from the back tees hole.

Here is what the hole looks like when you finally do make the fairway.



The Plumart Cathedral Hole.



Or this?

[Garland Bayley]

Since Ocean at Old Mac is not named after any existing template, could it be a new template?

[Jim Adkisson]

Since Ocean at Old Mac is not named after any existing template, could it be a new template?

Garland, I don't believe that iOM7 Ocean would or could be considered a "template" hole as this is a prime example of using the landforms that exist to the best possible advantage...If you had a flat sandbox to work with, this is not a hole that would be easily replicated.

[Garland Bayley]

Since Ocean at Old Mac is not named after any existing template, could it be a new template?

Garland, I don't believe that iOM7 Ocean would or could be considered a "template" hole as this is a prime example of using the landforms that exist to the best possible advantage...If you had a flat sandbox to work with, this is not a hole that would be easily replicated.

But yet we have Knoll, and Alps templates. If all the templates came from St. Andrews, your argument might make some sense, but I am afraid you limit templates too much.

[Tom_Doak]

The Ocean hole at Old Macdonald does include an ocean -- the Pacific Ocean.  Hard to template that, just like it's hard to template the 18th hole at Pebble Beach -- if you built 18 at Pebble with a lake or stream in place of the ocean, and no tree to the right front of the green, it's just the 18th at Doral.

I used to keep a list of holes that I thought would be good templates, mostly from my travels in the UK and Ireland.  I had about 100 different ones.  But, I don't look back to it very often, only when I've got a really blank site.  In general, I don't like to start with a template if there is anything on the ground I can run with.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom, your first paragraph touches on some interesting ideas.  When templating a hole, do you have to totally mimic the hole or simply apply the basic premise of it to adequately test a specific aspect of a golfers game?  I'll use a few photos to illustrate what I am saying.

Here is 3 at NGLA (The Alps)



Here is 5 at Yeamans (The Alps)



Frankly, to me these holes look nothing alike.  The only thing they seem to have in common is bunkering around the green and cross hazards in the fairway.  Yeamans has almost no elevation change and NGLA has a mountain looking hill in the middle of the fairway.  Regardless, they are both Alps holes.  I suppose the idea here is the have the golfer negotiate cross hazards and greenside bunkering.

Oddly enough, I wonder if the 15th at Augusta CC could be considered an Alps hole that is akin to Yeamans Alps.




I always figure the magic of the templates wasn't the copying of the look of the holes, per se.  Rather getting the different shots, strategies, and concepts down to test a golfers entire game.  I would assume that you (and many of the good architects) do this when routing a course.  That is piece together 18 holes that will fit the land, but also test a golfers entire game.  Would that be a correct assumption?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mac,

I think most archies do something like that.  While you always have to adapt to the land, if you believe that hitting a high fade, or off a side slope, or carrying a cape hole (water or sand) is a good shot to test in one place, its a good shot to test in another place as well.

The percieved danger is forcing any particular hole (or holes in a particular order) on the ground, but again, I think most gca's are senstive enough to the land forms to not do that, unless they have a flat site and then they can arrange them in the most desired order.  Like Ross or Dye favoring the 5-3-4 finish, and with Dye liking the Cape Hole finish.  In other cases, its a case of how much you really want to move earth to get a particular hole, and again, discretion is the better part of valor in most cases.  However, there are usually a need to move earth on a few fw, and then choosing how to move it, for example, taking it out of the right side of the fw to create a left to right side slope rather than taking the dirt out of the middle for another valley hole.

Perhaps the best way to say it is that there is a subtle difference between designing to punish certain misses vs designing to encourage certain shots.  The former gives us the bunker left, bunker right syndrome.  Also, asking if we are designing solely to mininmize (or maximize!) earthmoving, or are we designing to test golfers?  I like the idea of testing certain shots, but do realize there are more than 18 of those tests.

TD mentioned at one time having over 100 template holes, and I have heard other gca's (who shall remain nameless!) say they have 18, 21, and 36 templates.  I believe something over 36 good ideas is required (hey, they may call you to design 36 holes someday!) and also that the flexibility to connect and combine slightly differently every time out of the box is key.

[Garland Bayley]

The Ocean hole at Old Macdonald does include an ocean -- the Pacific Ocean.  Hard to template that, just like it's hard to template the 18th hole at Pebble Beach -- if you built 18 at Pebble with a lake or stream in place of the ocean, and no tree to the right front of the green, it's just the 18th at Doral.

I used to keep a list of holes that I thought would be good templates, mostly from my travels in the UK and Ireland.  I had about 100 different ones.  But, I don't look back to it very often, only when I've got a really blank site.  In general, I don't like to start with a template if there is anything on the ground I can run with.

The Road hole at Old MacDonald doesn't have a road. The Eden hole doesn't have a river either. Wouldn't the 17th at Black Mesa suit the "Ocean template", but without the ocean?