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NAF

What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« on: February 08, 2002, 12:33:17 PM »
There have been many threads on what has been done on many courses to get a U.S. Open (namely Torrey Pines) and what Fazio's group has been doing at Merion and may do at Oakmont..Geoff Shackelford recently wrote in GolfWorld and at length in the past about Riviera.  While I have not played any of those courses I have been fortunate enough to play Shinnecock twice.  When I last played there in October, my caddie who was a quasi-historian of the course was worried about how the course would hold up in the '04 Open unless the wind blew hard.  He of course mentioned the ball as being the main factor as the '95 Open set up was only 6800 yards and the par 5s are short at 529yds and 542yds respectively (although #16 plays into the prevailing wind).  

I would guess the next Open Doctor will lengthen the course at least a few hundred yards by 2004.  Since the par of 70 won't be changed I don't know what holes other than the par 5s and #8 and #13 could be lengthed. Anyone have ideas on what they might do to another masterpiece?

This is a good link to a course guide to the Shinnecock from the '95 Open
Hopefully the wind blows hard that week in 2004..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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NAF

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2002, 12:35:31 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2002, 12:51:46 PM »
Great link, Noel!

Here's one that's a little more convenient: http://services.golfweb.com/tour/shinn/shinn_all.htm

I'll bookmark it and keep it in mind if (O.K., when) I post the Shinnecock aerial.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2002, 01:05:56 PM »
NAF:

Simple formula -- play from existing back tees and let'em play. Allow the rough to be what it has been for two previous Opens ('86 and '95) and you go from there.

Nothing more and nothing less for this honey of a course. In my mind among the 2-3 best I've ever played. Completely fair and a thorough exmaination.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2002, 01:14:24 PM »
Matt:  I'd agree with you, but how happy would the members and USGA be with a winning score of 270 or so?

Seems to me that such score is inevitable absent high wind... today's ball is NOT that of 1986 or 1995... Both par 5's will now be eminently reachable, and jeez, couldn't many drive #1 these days if they care to try?

I know, Shinnecock has MANY defenses that make distance irrelevant.  And I could care less what the winning score is.

But I'm not a member there....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Robert_Walker

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2002, 01:29:30 PM »
There are still "new" tees from the 86 OPEN that have yet to be used. I predict nothing will be done to SHGC for the 04 OPEN.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2002, 01:35:52 PM »
I'm with Matt. This course needs nothing.

Also, I think they would have started any adjustments to the course. They've already started Oakmont and that's not hosting until 2007
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Lovito

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2002, 01:38:03 PM »
Noel,

I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine who is a member at Shinnecock.  According to him a fair amount of work is planned.  Given my bad memory, I can' t remember all the details but I will give him a call so he can refresh my memory.  What I do recall from the converstion is that they are already clearing many trees and bushes this winter to open the course even more to the wind.  For example, on #14 (I think) the trees framing the back of the green are gone and they cleared the trees on the side of the hill.  I will follow up with more details after I speak to him.

John  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2002, 01:45:27 PM »
People should remember how quickly the weather can change at SH. Has anyone forgotten the brutal conditions of Round One in '86? Just ask the Golden Bear and his first "lost" ball at the 10th!

In '95 championship week featured wet and miserable weather for the practice rounds but starting on Thursday the course dried to the conditon of major highway. If you have firm and fast conditions your target lines had better be EXTREMELY accurate. Yes, power can help (remember Greg Norman's play in the last two Opens) but you will have to be precise too.

If they open the vistas a bit more as John indicated that's fine. But, you don't have to tinker with SH. I agree with
Tom -- what the winner shoots is immaterial. If good weather holds the boys should shoot low if they earn it. Conversely, if any Nor-Easters blow throw like they did in round one in 1986 then be prepared for anything. I loved watching Norman hit a punch 5-iron that day to the 11th and come up a bit short! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2002, 01:46:45 PM »
Matt:  I am with you 100%, the score is immaterial.

But given the suggested "renovations", it appears the members and/or the USGA disagree.

Yet another sad day for golf.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2002, 02:46:21 PM »
If they let Rees or Fazio touch this gem, I think that the world might just come to an end. I don't even think that Flynn would touch up Shinnecock. The wind always blows on the island in June and Mark Michaud will have those greens rolling pure and true. They will be like Highway 27 right, outside the clubhouse's doorstep.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2002, 03:30:51 PM »
Fortunately, we still live in an age where good sense sometimes prevails. They will not touch one blade of grass on this course, and it will be perfect. As for the wind not blowing...highly unlikely.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2002, 04:56:24 PM »
I hope you're right, Jeff.

Trees have been removed in back of 11 tee and to the right of 10 green to allow more sunlight exposure.

Talk is #7 is to be lenghthened if the USGA gets their way. Hopefully, the powers that be at Shinnecock (and they are powerful) will hear none of it regarding #7 or any other changes which are suggested. >:(

Should the perfection which is Shinnecock be tampered in any significant way then, indeed, the end is truly near.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2002, 06:21:04 PM »
NAF, et. al.,

It should be noted that the Shinnecock of today is not the Shinnecock of twenty (20) years ago.

Are you saying that the USGA changes in the last twenty years have brought Shinnecock to its lofty position today ?

Why can't additional changes make it an even better course ?

Please take a number.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2002, 06:24:46 PM »
Guys,

Other than maybe the addition of a tee or two, there will be no real differences between the setup for the 1995 and the 2004 Open.  

If there had not been hard rain on the Tuesday prior to the 1995 Open, 5 over probably would have easily.  I know it's difficult for people to realize that sometimes, but it never fails that if you need rain at your course, schedule a major championship.  

There is plenty of room to lengthen many of the holes at Shinnecock, I am sure #7 will not be one of them, there may be a new tee placed to the left of the current one...apparantly where the tee was originally placed by Raynor.  The 5th tee may be bumped back a bit as it usually plays downwind....but it's still pretty tough, just ask Tom Kite who chipped it back and forth across that green.  

It's amazing when you think about standing on the back of #18 tee with a guy who has made the cut in several U. S. Opens and thinking about how far that tee can be pushed back.  Then we both proceed to play the hole with a good drive and a wood.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2002, 06:29:09 PM »
Pat:

What changes are you suggesting, if any? In abstract anything is possible. But, what do you see as clear weaknesses where modifications would be needed.

I think the main frame of SH is today is more than worthy and certainly capable in testing the world's best. The '86 and '95 Opens, in my mind, proved that. '04 would be no different.

When certain wind conditions take place, as you well know Pat, the course has and does show many moods. I'd like to see the big boys of today have a day like the first round in '86 and try to get home on #9 and #18 in a stiff headwind. Few were able that day and minus Tiger and maybe a small handful of others those long par-4's would easily be realistic par-5's.

The putting surfaces are so varied and when approchaes get short-sided you will have plenty of work to do. I often think of watching Phil hack up the 16th hole in '95. If Phil had played the hole anywhere near even par he would have bagged the title that year. Ditto the hatchet job Lehman did on the hole on Sunday.

In my opinion, SH is the quintessential championship layout we have in America because it favors not just one style. There is more than enough there to bring out the best in all types of players. I often think of the logjam leaderboard on Sunday's final round in '86 when no less than 10 players were hovering at the top of the board until Ray Floyd broke away.

Is anything possible regarding changes? The answer is yes. But ask yourself this -- is it needed?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2002, 07:11:51 PM »
Matt,

The course for the previous Opens was lengthened.

I'm not so sure some additional lengthening wouldn't help offset some of the increases in distance that have occured in the intervening years.

I would have to look at the course more carefully before making any final determination.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2002, 07:25:35 PM »
In '95 the course was listed at 6944 max, I believe. The new tee built at #17 was only used once in the 4 days, if memory serves.

The course had chipping areas around 9 of the greens in '95, and IMO were a grand idea. Maybe they could increase that number in 2004.

It might get away from that wonderfully rugged look of SH, but I would like to see some consideration given to cutting the upslope in front of #9 green to fairway height.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Robert_Walker

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2002, 08:52:14 PM »
Nothing will change. PJ deepened the 18th tee for the 86 Open, and they never used it. From the tips, Shinnecock is a hard course.(understatement)

Nothing, except that they may remove a tree or two, and they might add chipping areas.

A course that does not need to be changed or improved.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2002, 06:18:11 AM »
I think I agree with Robert Walker that nothing will change or very little will. I don't know that for a fact but that's my feeling.

Actually this question can be better answered in that Shinnecock has been changing in the last few years just that none of you have really noticed it! They have been slowly taking it back in some restorative ways--trees coming out, chipping areas getting expanded and just generally souping the course up in a gradual way--gradual applications of the ideal "maintenance meld".

I drive through it every time I'm out there and for the last few summers it had that "light green sheen" to it which means you know what!

They're not going to do much to it, if anything, because they aleady have, little by little. Michaud arriving on the scene  wasn't a coincidence either, you know!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BillV

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2002, 06:36:36 AM »
Nothing needs to be done to Shinnecock.  It is the one course that has it all to test the elite player inAmerica.  Everything else is a distant second, plain and simple.

The only thing that can screw it up is too much water.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brad Miller

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2002, 06:51:16 AM »
How wonderful is it to talk about a US Open site that needs only wind and not to much rain. The ongoing tweaking to the perfect "MMeld" would make even our own TPaul and BillV happy! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BillV

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2002, 06:54:42 AM »
Agreed, Brad.

BTW, we should trademark that MMeld&reg before someone else claims it as their own. Like Fazio.


p.s. guys, what is the other code for marca registrada?  I fergot!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2002, 10:52:20 AM »
Robert Walker,

Are you "positive" that the "new"back tee at # 18 wasn't used at the 86 Open ??  Was it used in the 95 Open ?

What tees were created for the 86 Open ?

What tees were created for the 95 Open ?

What new tees might make sense for the next Open ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What will the USGA do to Shinnecock in 2004?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2002, 01:05:14 PM »
What a great way for the USGA to compare the past Opens at a great layout with todays version of play.
The scores will tell us of the affect there is employed by equipment, conditioning, and balls on play that has been established before.
We have been discussing this very thing for two years now.
I hope the USGA will leave Shinnecock alone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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