Trump's Aberdeen Episode

[Ally Mcintosh]

Can't help but weigh back in despite common sense saying I shouldn't:

Regarding the "berming" issue, never mind what Donald Trump is saying... I'm not sure which area this is referring to but there are two I can think of.... One of them I'd say that 95% of architects would have built a screen... The other which is more directly influencing a hole and long views, I'd still guess that the vast majority of architects would build some form of false mounding because the transition into plain farmland would have been quite stark and unbalanced... (this is all planning consented assumed...)

So let's leave Trump's supposed bullying tactics out of it... we've talked about that ad nauseum...
Let's leave the building on an SSSI out of it... we've talked about that ad nauseum...

Let's be happy that becuase of the current economic situation, the golf course will have time to bed in and stake its own claim before the real estate plans see the light of day...

And lets stop assuming that because Trump goes on a telly program and boasts about designing golf courses that he is automatically the most interfering client with bad ideas that any architect has ever had to deal with.... Because I've heard directly that he's been quite a good client to deal with, golf-wise....

Ally

You're an enthusiast for this project which is fair enough. What you can't deny is that there are some important issues that desrve some discussion and at least some of them are design related. I think I'm right in saying your in the business. I've started another thread an hopefully you will contribute, I certainly hope so.

Niall,

I guess it just feels like old news talking about Trump and the SSSI...

If you read back at threads going back to 2007, you'll notice that I was far from an enthusiast about the project. I had definite reservations about building on this particular SSSI, having grown up there only adding to them... I had definite reservations about the style of the developer and I was most certainly violently opposed to the extent of the infrastructure that he proposed...

However, I have always seen positives in the project also and once it got the go-ahead and since I've walked the routing, I am excited about the prospect of what the course will turn out like... I have consigned the rest to history for now... I will continue to fight against the size of the real estate plans if and when they are back on the table...

Incidentally, this first thread will be of much interest to you and gives many opinions nearer the beginning of the project, especially on the SSSI:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37205.0.html

This second one is worth reminding yourself of as well:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41994.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Once an application is submitted for approval, amending it subsequent to approval is no easy task..

Preliminary work is .... preliminary work, nothing more.

The only thing that counts in the approval process is the application submitted for approval, not the debate or modifications that resulted in the final application.

[Sean_A]

Patrick

In my experience in dealing with planning applications in the UK it is much more a negotiation process than you let on.  Tinkering here and there is common - usually dealing with minor details so far as the layman is concerned.  Sometimes the tinkering is such that a re-submission is necessary, but that also means the application must go back out for consultation.  I would also add that if someone does re-submit he is usually encouraged to do so by the planning authority - meaning the concept is approvable in theory if the process can be properly worked out.  Otherwise, most applicants feeling wrong done by can go to appeal.  Believe me, planning authorities do not like applications to go this route as it is expensive, hence the reason for the "negotiated" process so long as the application is not breaking regulations such as land not zoned for development etc.  This is why I found it astonishing when the Chair of Planning Delegation at ACC was hounded.  In fact, to follow regulations, he had no other choice but to vote against Trump's application.  The more pertinent question would be how the Delegation became deadlocked and requiring the Chair's vote at all.  There is no way that delegation should have been in that position.  Mind you, an application of that size should have been deemed important enough for the Delegation to put the question to the entire Council.  Regardless, the vote should have been a resounding NO if the Council was following planning regulation - it could be no other way.  The Scottish Gov't should have stepped in with their powers WAY before it ever got to the point of ACC voting on this matter - it was a huge mistake that caused a lot of unnecessary grief.  

Anyway, they are where they are, but I still hope the owner of the Coastguard cottage gets a fair shake as he most certainly deserves it.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

In my experience in dealing with planning applications in the UK it is much more a negotiation process than you let on.  

I didn't say that negotiations didn't occur subsequent to submittal.
[/b]

Tinkering here and there is common - usually dealing with minor details so far as the layman is concerned.  Sometimes the tinkering is such that a re-submission is necessary, but that also means the application must go back out for consultation.  

"Re-submission" implies that the application has already been submitted.

My point was that the pre-submission discussions and debates don't mean much, it's what's submitted that's important.[/b]

I would also add that if someone does re-submit he is usually encouraged to do so by the planning authority - meaning the concept is approvable in theory if the process can be properly worked out.  


That's entirely different from the developer re-submitting.
Re-submissions, encouraged by the planning authority are usually compromise driven, with the understanding that the "conforming re-submission" will be approved.[/b]

Otherwise, most applicants feeling wrong done by can go to appeal.  Believe me, planning authorities do not like applications to go this route as it is expensive, hence the reason for the "negotiated" process so long as the application is not breaking regulations such as land not zoned for development etc.  

I think all parties would want to avoid the situation where an appeal is filed for a variety of reasons.
An appeal can be looked at as being "hostile".[/b]

This is why I found it astonishing when the Chair of Planning Delegation at ACC was hounded.  In fact, to follow regulations, he had no other choice but to vote against Trump's application.  The more pertinent question would be how the Delegation became deadlocked and requiring the Chair's vote at all.  There is no way that delegation should have been in that position.  Mind you, an application of that size should have been deemed important enough for the Delegation to put the question to the entire Council.  Regardless, the vote should have been a resounding NO if the Council was following planning regulation - it could be no other way.  The Scottish Gov't should have stepped in with their powers WAY before it ever got to the point of ACC voting on this matter - it was a huge mistake that caused a lot of unnecessary grief.  

I'd certainly agree.
It's always better to work thinks out before a vote(;[/b]

Anyway, they are where they are, but I still hope the owner of the Coastguard cottage gets a fair shake as he most certainly deserves it.

I'm certainly glad that the lighthouse remained at Turnberry., perhaps the CGC will remain at Aberdeen.

Lastly, I understand those who vow to never play Trump's course, though I don't agree with the motivation.
I made that same decision regarding paying to see a Jane Fonda movie after she had her picture taken in Hanoi when she was in a triple A mount, while my roommate was listed as MIA/KIA.

[Niall C]

Ally

Thanks for that but you'll note that I actually contributed to both of those threads if only belatedly in the first one. Maybe it is all over with regards to Balmedie but the thread I started was what effect the granting of planning opn the Balmedie project would have on future golf development in this country, if any at all. Surely thats worth a discussion on GCA ?

Patrick

As Sean says its quite common for developers to apply for variations on planning applications, some of which can materially change the consent. They are usually done by way of negotiation with the planning authority. In another post you make the following comment;

"What I find interesting is the assumption on almost everyone's part that Donald Trump planned the entire development, soup to nuts, that he didn't engage any professionals as part of the planning process.  No engineers, hydrologists, architects, planners, etc., etcc.
That he and he alone is the creator of every aspect of this project."

I'm not sure who is saying that Donald is a one man band. Clearly he has a strong team working for him but there is no doubt the scheme was conceived by him and furthermore I would be amazed if he didn't get a strong stear from his professional team that he was unlikely to get planning and I can be pretty sure that none of them would have been specing their time on this one.

In your later posts you have been characterising the opposition as being simply anti-Trump. That may well be the case on sites like this and threads such as this one but let me asure you that on the ground people are more concerned about the issues than the personalities despite how the newspapers try to portray it.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

There had to be a body of individuals, educated and in decision making positions, either through election or appointment that agree with Trump on this project.

It's not a one way street where everyone in Aberdeen opposes this project.

Let's see what kind of course is produced and then engage in detailed analysis.
Let's not rely on media reports, let's allow all of the facts to come to light before passing judgement and assigning blame.

[Niall C]

Niall,

There had to be a body of individuals, educated and in decision making positions, either through election or appointment that agree with Trump on this project.

It's not a one way street where everyone in Aberdeen opposes this project.

Let's see what kind of course is produced and then engage in detailed analysis.
Let's not rely on media reports, let's allow all of the facts to come to light before passing judgement and assigning blame.

Patrick

I'm going to be very careful what I say here as I currently work for a local authority although not in a planning capacity. The guys who make the decisions at Committee are elected and are commonly referred to as Councillors or members. The Councillors are formed into Committees to oversea various aspects of the Councils business with individual Councillors frequently on more than one Committee. I won't pretend to know how the various places on Committee are allocated but I can assure you that the Councillors don't need to have a particular professional qualification to sit on something like the planning Committee for instance.

On the other hand the officers, or employees if you prefer, generally do have the appropriate qualification. The officers report to Committee with recommendations and generally, which in a lot Committees will mean 99 times out of a 100, the Committee will accept the officers recommendation and either grant or refuse planning permission accordingly in the case of a planning committee. In the Trump planning application I'm pretty sure in saying that the officers recommended refusal. They could hardly do anything else given how contrary the application was to the local plan, as well as various national and EU directives relating to the SSSI. The Planning Committee went with this recommendation by the narrowest margin which is when national politics took over from local ones. So in general terms Trump had/has support from some of the politicians and opposition from others, while the educated ones as you refer to them were against.

I will be interested to see how the course pans out and unlike Sean I will probably play it at some point or at least walk it. And when I do I'll likely be measuring how wide the fairways are and how big the ponds are, and then I might resurrect this thread.

Niall

[Jud_T]

I've tried to restrain myself from commenting on yet another Trump thread and I've tried even harder to overcome my "When you look up Ugly American in the dictionary" preconceptions and keep an open mind here,  but honestly how many posters here will actually pony up the inevitably large non-resident greens fee to see what it's all about in lieu of getting in an extra round, or membership for that matter, at Cruden Bay up the road?  I hope it's a huge success for the local economy and all, and maybe I'll be missing something wonderful, but until the new and improved Confidential Guide comes out with Trump Aberdeen featured prominently in the Gourmet's Choice section I just can't see myself ever making that choice...

[Tim Martin]

I've tried to restrain myself from commenting on yet another Trump thread and I've tried even harder to overcome my "When you look up Ugly American in the dictionary" preconceptions and keep an open mind here,  but honestly how many posters here will actually pony up the inevitably large non-resident greens fee to see what it's all about in lieu of getting in an extra round, or membership for that matter, at Cruden Bay up the road?  I hope it's a huge success for the local economy and all, and maybe I'll be missing something wonderful, but until the new and improved Confidential Guide comes out with Trump Aberdeen featured prominently in the Gournet's Choice section I just can't see myself ever making that choice...

Jud-Your feelings are probably much more widely held than the Trump people care to admit. It is very important for this project`s success to have positive reviews upon completion.

[Niall C]

Jud/Tim,

If the reviews come back and say this course is as good as Kingbarns and Castle Stuart, are you still going to not go there because Donald Trump built it ? Seriously, are you ?

Bear in mind the architect, the budget and the nature of this site, its almost guaranteed to be good even with/despite any owner input into the design. The question will be how good.

Niall

[Robert Thompson]

Niall: Have you actually played an original Martin Hawtree design? I ask because I have -- it was a low-budget project in Ontario that I'm very fond of as a value-based course. That said, I still think there are a couple of clunkers among the holes -- two to be specific -- and his work at some of the Open courses has been widely criticized (I recall specifically the 17th at Birkdale, I believe). His reno of Toronto Golf Club is okay, though very busy for a previously subtle course.

I guess I'd ask this -- where is the greatness in his original designs that would indicate he gets not only the aesthetic, but the routing and the strategy. I don't know the answer -- maybe there is an example. Maybe this will be his coming out party like Pacific Dunes was for Doak. Hawtree's website lists tons of work -- some of it is the firm's work from past years -- but most of the original designs look to be inland/parkland courses.

I haven't seen enough of his work to have an opinion -- and as I said, I am fond of one of his original courses, so perhaps he'll nail the Trump project. But it strikes me that this one is a lot less straight-forward and with a lot more elements -- and people- involved in the design than his projects I'm familiar with.

[Jim Nugent]

Does anyone know why Trump chose Hawtree?  Seems like he is overlooking some much more accomplished architects, including but not limited to Doak, C&C, Kidd, Fazio, Nicklaus and Devries. 

[Tim Martin]

Jud/Tim,

If the reviews come back and say this course is as good as Kingbarns and Castle Stuart, are you still going to not go there because Donald Trump built it ? Seriously, are you ?

Bear in mind the architect, the budget and the nature of this site, its almost guaranteed to be good even with/despite any owner input into the design. The question will be how good.

Niall

Niall-I have absolutely no axe to grind with Trump. I am rooting for the project and was merely commenting on Jud`s post. I never said I would not go there but do feel there are a lot of people who agree with Jud. Trump does not bother me in that he is always going to come off as haughty. That`s his shtick and it`s worked pretty well for him so far. I really don`t agree with those who say he is bad for golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

Nicklaus and Fazio ?

Interesting choices given the site, no ?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Does anyone know why Trump chose Hawtree?  Seems like he is overlooking some much more accomplished architects, including but not limited to Doak, C&C, Kidd, Fazio, Nicklaus and Devries. 

Trump chose Hawtree because of his familiarity with links design - possibly in a PR move, probably out of common sense. His previous architect was a Fazio Jr.

Seems a massive leap Jim for you to state that "Nicklaus is a much more accomplished architect than Hawtree". For a start, I'd suspect you might have to first work out which lead architect Nicklaus might be using. Secondly, I can tell you that almost all Hawtree designs I have played hold a base level of interest for me. Not so Nicklaus designs. Hawtree is a professional golf course architect by training. Is Nicklaus?

On the other side of the coin, the R&A use a recommended architect for all their Open courses (Hawtree being the choice when Trump made his decision). I don't like this practice but what I especially don't like about it is that every other links club seem to jump on the bandwagon when a renovation is on the cards, effectively meaning the R&A are treated as the Lord almighty in links golf course architecture which is a ludicrous situation but shows yet again that perception is everything

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent,

Nicklaus and Fazio ?

Interesting choices given the site, no ?

I added them (late) to the list, to try and avoid accusations of our typical GCA bias.  Which in reality I am guilty of.  I wouldn't consider them personally, if I were in charge.  Though they are highly accomplished.   

Seems a massive leap Jim for you to state that "Nicklaus is a much more accomplished architect than Hawtree". For a start, I'd suspect you might have to first work out which lead architect Nicklaus might be using. Secondly, I can tell you that almost all Hawtree designs I have played hold a base level of interest for me. Not so Nicklaus designs. Hawtree is a professional golf course architect by training. Is Nicklaus?

You may well be right: see what I wrote above in answering Pat.  Actually, if what I understand about Nicklaus is right, I don't consider him a golf course architect at all.  Which associate they would assign obviously could make a huge difference in how the course turned out. 

Is Jack more accomplished than Martin?  (By Jack, I mean his firm.)  From my entirely second-hand knowledge, it seems to me he is.  More courses ranked higher on more world lists, and not just the ones like Harbour Towne where Jack tagged along with other architects.  I haven't played any courses by either man, so I'm going entirely on rankings, comments, GCA threads, etc. 

Btw, being a professional golf course architect by training means nothing to me.  To name a few who were not: CBM, Mackenzie, Pete Dye, Hugh Wilson, Colt, Old Tom and Donald Ross. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jim Nugent,

Nicklaus and Fazio ?

Interesting choices given the site, no ?

I added them (late) to the list, to try and avoid accusations of our typical GCA bias.  Which in reality I am guilty of.  I wouldn't consider them personally, if I were in charge.  Though they are highly accomplished.   

Seems a massive leap Jim for you to state that "Nicklaus is a much more accomplished architect than Hawtree". For a start, I'd suspect you might have to first work out which lead architect Nicklaus might be using. Secondly, I can tell you that almost all Hawtree designs I have played hold a base level of interest for me. Not so Nicklaus designs. Hawtree is a professional golf course architect by training. Is Nicklaus?

You may well be right: see what I wrote above in answering Pat.  Actually, if what I understand about Nicklaus is right, I don't consider him a golf course architect at all.  Which associate they would assign obviously could make a huge difference in how the course turned out. 

Is Jack more accomplished than Martin?  (By Jack, I mean his firm.)  From my entirely second-hand knowledge, it seems to me he is.  More courses ranked higher on more world lists, and not just the ones like Harbour Towne where Jack tagged along with other architects.  I haven't played any courses by either man, so I'm going entirely on rankings, comments, GCA threads, etc. 

Btw, being a professional golf course architect by training means nothing to me.  To name a few who were not: CBM, Mackenzie, Pete Dye, Hugh Wilson, Colt, Old Tom and Donald Ross. 

Well by training I don't necessarily mean educational. I also mean in practice. Routing, drawing, specifying, constructing and putting in the legwork that enables you to learn. I do not know Nicklaus but what I talk of is a full time job. If GCA is a full-time job for Nicklaus, it is at a slightly higher level than much of what I talk of. If he has never worked at that lower level, how much input does he have with the detail or even the framework of each individual course? If he has much, I suggest it is to implement broad visions of design, regardless of site...

[Jud_T]

Niall,

If it is in fact rated as highly as Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart I may well give it a go although the fat lady ain't warming up on that yet because she's currently just a chubby spoiled toddler who was illicitly conceived.  I, like many of us on this side of the pond, go to GB&I primarily to play the ancient links.  We have plenty of great modern courses over here that don't require a pricey transatlantic flight, jet-lag and an anal cavity search.  Cruden Bay currently has Overseas Membership dues of 340 pounds per annum.  How do you suppose The Greatest Links Course in the World's greens fees will be priced for us Yanks and will a stay in the gilded palace-by-the-sea be required?

P.S. It wasn't P.T. Barnum but rather David Hannum, in reference to Barnum's part in the Cardiff Giant hoax, who uttered the famous phrase "There's a sucker born every minute"

[jeffwarne]

Niall,

If it is in fact rated as highly as Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart I may well give it a go although the fat lady ain't warming up on that yet because she's currently just a chubby spoiled toddler who was illicitly conceived.  I, like many of us on this side of the pond, go to GB&I primarily to play the ancient links.  We have plenty of great modern courses over here that don't require a pricey transatlantic flight, jet-lag and an anal cavity search.  Cruden Bay currently has Annual Overseas Membership dues of 340 pounds per annum.  How do you suppose The Greatest Links Course in the World's greens fees will be priced for us Yanks and will a stay in the gilded palace-by-the-sea be required?

P.S. It wasn't P.T. Barnum but rather David Hannum, in reference to Barnum's part in the Cardiff Giant hoax, who uttered the famous phrase "There's a sucker born every minute"

Nial,
First of all, Kingsbarns was not built on actual linksland, so the expectations of a links course for Trump are WAY higher, given the piece of land and the procolamtions of Trump.("greatest course in the world"etc.)
So to answer the original question, if it's "as good as Kingsbarns" certainly won't entice me to go play it. I've played Kingsbarns, and while I found it to be an excellent, enjoyable course, I've got 40-50 courses in the UK/Ireland I'd go back to play again before I'd go back to Kingsbarns.
So no I won't go play it if it's a good as Kingsbarns, and am unlikely to play it even if it's better than Kingsbarns (due to my admitted anti-Trump bias )

I'm confident the atmosphere would not suit my tastes and there are dozens courses within an hour of there that do.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jeff,

I bow to your superor golfing skills but do tell, what 50 courses would you travel to the UK to play before Kingsbarns?

Bob 

[Robert Thompson]

Bob: I'm with you. I think Kingsbarns is a links -- as much as any links where holes have been created, and that's plenty of them. And I really really like it -- and while I understand some purists might not think it great, I have never heard of anyone not enjoying the course. I think it is terrific, for what it is worth.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I bow to your superor golfing skills but do tell, what 50 courses would you travel to the UK to play before Kingsbarns?

Bob  

Bob,
I certainly could've been clearer.
and you really do need a lesson if you're bowing to my superior golf skills (smiley emoticon)
For the record I think it's a great course, and many/most of the courses i have returned to and intend to return to would not be considered great by the masses, and be strongly debated by many on here with more sophisticated and educated tastes like mine.
In fact some might call my favorites "executive courses"
I did say I enjoyed Kingsbarns and they did a great job creating a links  course on farmland by the sea. (I'm just saying Trump's land has more natural advantages in that it's already linksland)

I also did say UK/Ireland and I did say 40-50. (I need my smiley emoticons back)
I enjpyed Kingsbarns, but I've played it and since I've been back to that area twice since and didn't play it again, can I count the ones I played while there since?
I didn't say there are 50 courses better, just that there are 40-50 I'd play first before I'd go there again.
actually 40-50 is way low as I could spend years in Sean Arble country.(smiley emoticon)


but to answer your question.

since I'm going to Ireland in May
Donegal, Portnoo, Cruit, Gweedore, Dunfanaghy,Rosapenna Morris, Rosapena Ruddy, Portsalon, Otway, Buncrana, Northwest, ballyliffin old, Ballyliffin new.
so that's 13 that by definition of playing before going back to Kingsbarns.

If you count the courses in the UK/Ireland I've traveled to since I played Kingsbarns-many of them repeats- it'd easily be 50
St. Andrews,St. Andrews New, Elie, Crail,Royal Aberdeen, cruden bay,Murcar,Dunbar, North Berwick,Crail, Muirfield, royal st. georges, Deal, Rye,Littlestone, Carnoustie,
St. Enodoc, Perranporth, West Cornwall, saunton east and West, Westward Ho, Bude and North Cornwall , Trevose.
Carnoustie, Turnberry, Prestwick, Prestwick St. Nicholas, Western Gailles, Machrihanish, Mach dunes, Dunaverty, Carradale, Machrie,
West Kilbride, Troon, Troon Portland, Glasgow gailles, RCD, Ardglass, Portrush, Portrush Valley, castlerock, Portstewart, Bushmills, Ballycastle, Kirkistown Castle, Dornoch, Fortrose, Brora, Golspie, tain, Boat of garten,
Waterville, ballybunion, new and Old, Dooks, Tralee, lahinch, Spanish point, Doonbeg, carne, Enniscrone, Strandhill, Sligo, Mulrany, Connemara, Connemara Isles
North Wales, Bull Bay, Tenby, Pennard, Southerndown, Nefyn, Aberdovey, Royal St. david', cardigan,Ashburnham

and then of course all the courses I played in the rest of Ireland and the Dublin area that i played before Kingsbarns that I'd like to get back to (15 more or so)
plus the endless amount in england in the heathland and parkland category(as well as quite a few I missed in Scotland and Wales)-all of which I'd like to play  before i go back to Kingsbarns. To say nothing of the region near Liverpool and north which has 10-15 great links.

My only criticism of Kingsbarns was that it felt resorty and corporate, but mainly there's just so much great golf and simple experiences to be had in UK/Ireland, I just can't see making the time to go back to Kingsbarns (while I appreciate its place as a really good golf course)
I see no reason to go to play Trump as he and his operations are just not my style
Doubtful I'll run into many of his members at the above mentioned courses

[Tim Martin]

Jeff,

I bow to your superor golfing skills but do tell, what 50 courses would you travel to the UK to play before Kingsbarns?

Bob  

Bob,
I certainly could've been clearer.
and you really do need a lesson if you're bowing to my superior golf skills (smiley emoticon)
For the record I think it's a great course, and many/most of the courses i have returned to and intend to return to would not be considered great by the masses, and be strongly debated by many on here with more sophisticated and educated tastes like mine.
In fact some might call my favorites "executive courses"
I did say I enjoyed Kingsbarns and they did a great job creating a links  course on farmland by the sea. (I'm just saying Trump's land has more natural advantages in that it's already linksland)

I also did say UK/Ireland and I did say 40-50. (I need my smiley emoticons back)
I enjpyed Kingsbarns, but I've played it and since I've been back to that area twice since and didn't play it again, can I count the ones I played while there since?
I didn't say there are 50 courses better, just that there are 40-50 I'd play first before I'd go there again.
actually 40-50 is way low as I could spend years in Sean Arble country.(smiley emoticon)


but to answer your question.

since I'm going to Ireland in May
Donegal, Portnoo, Cruit, Gweedore, Dunfanaghy,Rosapenna Morris, Rosapena Ruddy, Portsalon, Otway, Buncrana, Northwest, ballyliffin old, Ballyliffin new.
so that's 13 that by definition of playing before going back to Kingsbarns.

If you count the courses in the UK/Ireland I've traveled to since I played Kingsbarns-many of them repeats- it'd easily be 50
St. Andrews,St. Andrews New, Elie, Crail,Royal Aberdeen, cruden bay,Murcar,Dunbar, North Berwick,Crail, Muirfield, royal st. georges, Deal, Rye,Littlestone, Carnoustie,
St. Enodoc, Perranporth, West Cornwall, saunton east and West, Westward Ho, Bude and North Cornwall , Trevose.
Carnoustie, Turnberry, Prestwick, Prestwick St. Nicholas, Western Gailles, Machrihanish, Mach dunes, Dunaverty, Carradale, Machrie,
West Kilbride, Troon, Troon Portland, Glasgow gailles, RCD, Ardglass, Portrush, Portrush Valley, castlerock, Portstewart, Bushmills, Ballycastle, Kirkistown Castle, Dornoch, Fortrose, Brora, Golspie, tain, Boat of garten,
Waterville, ballybunion, new and Old, Dooks, Tralee, lahinch, Spanish point, Doonbeg, carne, Enniscrone, Strandhill, Sligo, Mulrany, Connemara, Connemara Isles
North Wales, Bull Bay, Tenby, Pennard, Southerndown, Nefyn, Aberdovey, Royal St. david', cardigan,Ashburnham

and then of course all the courses I played in the rest of Ireland and the Dublin area that i played before Kingsbarns that I'd like to get back to (15 more or so)
plus the endless amount in england in the heathland and parkland category(as well as quite a few I missed in Scotland and Wales)-all of which I'd like to play  before i go back to Kingsbarns. To say nothing of the region near Liverpool and north which has 10-15 great links.

My only criticism of Kingsbarns was that it felt resorty and corporate, but mainly there's just so much great golf and simple experiences to be had in UK/Ireland, I just can't see making the time to go back to Kingsbarns (while I appreciate its place as a really good golf course)
I see no reason to go to play Trump as he and his operations are just not my style
Doubtful I'll run into many of his members at the above mentioned courses

Jeff Warne- I didn`t know if you would endeavor to answer Bob Huntley`s question. That`s a five star answer.

[Niall C]

Robert,

Do you know, off the top of my head I'm not sure I have played a Hawtree design. I appreciate where you're coming from as his reputation is in doing alterations to links courses, or at least thats my impression. He does however have a degree of standing on this side of the pond and a lot of experience. Maybe not in big budget new designs, or maybe he has and I don't know about it but he certainly has experience on links and I think that matters more in this situation. Fazio Jnr was originally in the frame and I suspect that would have been a mistake. I've nmentioned before that he appeared on scottish tv standing on the site and coming away with a quote along the lines of the site is so good that all you need to do is put in the sprinkler system and the cart path. That didn't fill me with any confidence and I suspect others as well.

BTW - I would defend him on his Birkdale alteration as most of the negative comments were that it wasn't in keeping with the other greens. Well, where would the Old Course be without the 7th/11th or North Berwick without its wall in front of the green or the trench going through one green. The question is basically a good bit of design and I think it was. It certainly added to the excitement on that hole and I imagine would be fun to play.

Tim

Noted. Your comments are interesting as I wonder that this course might raise the tone of Trumps golfing portfolio.

Jud

Again interesting comments. There certainly seems to be enough folk on this site who disagree but tell me this, when you do an overseas trip to somewhere you've been before, lets say in the UK, do you go back and play courses  you've played before ? I think there will be enough going to try the course to see what all the hype is about.

Jeff

I know all about Kingsbarns, I've had the tour from Mark Parsinen, the lecture from the guys at Elmwood on the agronomy plus played it half a dozen times and agree with your comments totally. To me its a course thats allure fades each time you play it. A phenominal achievement in landscaping nonetheless but falls short in golfing interest compared to others. Still very good but not in the top 5. What it is though, and this was why I mentioned it, is a good example of what Trumps course could be in that both KB and Kingsbarns had some brilliant reviews even before they opened. Time will tell.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Niall,

I haven't been back to the same area of G,B&I twice to answer your question properly.  But I certainly would play Ballybunion, Lahinch, Portmarnock, Baltray, TOC, Prestwick and Carnoustie again rather than search out a new course.  It will have to be in the top 25 G,B&I rankings 5 years after opening for me to really bother to take a peek and by doing so give up a round elsewhere.