[BCrosby]

[Deleted. Repeated post.]

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob- yes, Tom D (and Mike Y) are right of course, and Tom is right to point that out.  But the subject of intentionality is a side-bar for me, at least in terms of this thread. That is, this is more about describing a reality that about ascribing praise.  In other words, I think golf courses could manifest the power of invisible architecture brilliantly even if the architect wasn't consciously aware of the  juxtapositions....as if by accident as it were.

Peter     

[Ben Sims]

In other words, I think golf courses could manifest the power of invisible architecture brilliantly even if the architect wasn't consciously aware of the  juxtapositions....as if by accident as it were.

Peter     

Peter,

I doubt any architect ever gave his client a tour of a site by saying, "Check out what I'm NOT designing!"

Negative space is the effect, not the cause.   Spacial relationships are only important if you're aware of them.  The whole point, IMO, is to make the negative space important by having good enough golf holes to ignore it.   Hence my 7 to 8 example at Ballyneal.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

I'm having trouble understanding your concept, I guess.

Do blind shots create negative space?

Or drop shot par-3's?

One of my favorite things in golf is to see a ball disappear from view behind a contour, and then reappear as it climbs out of the hollow on the other side.  On the seventh green at San Francisco Golf Club, when you putt over the ridge in the middle of the green, your ball can be moving left to right as it disappears from view, and reappear moving from right to left!   There is a lot of that in the hollows in front of various greens on The Old Course at St. Andrews, too.

P.S.  I have often given tours of my golf courses (under construction or afterwards) showing off various things we didn't do.

[Ben Sims]

Ben:

I'm having trouble understanding your concept, I guess.

Do blind shots create negative space?

Or drop shot par-3's?

One of my favorite things in golf is to see a ball disappear from view behind a contour, and then reappear as it climbs out of the hollow on the other side.  On the seventh green at San Francisco Golf Club, when you putt over the ridge in the middle of the green, your ball can be moving left to right as it disappears from view, and reappear moving from right to left!   There is a lot of that in the hollows in front of various greens on The Old Course at St. Andrews, too.

P.S.  I have often given tours of my golf courses (under construction or afterwards) showing off various things we didn't do.

Tom,

I'm not really speaking about "intra-hole" (as Mike put it) space.  I'm mostly referring to time spent on the golf course where you're not actively engaged in the golf hole.  Or at least to the extent that the hole itself is the aim of the moment.  We could go all kinds of directions with that conversation.  Like you said, blind shots, drop shots, camouflaging techniques, etc.

I speaking more in generalities with regards to how architecture holds one's attention.  In my mind, empty space is what happens when there is nothing left to hold one's attention.  My point is that if the architecture is solid enough, then empty space disappears, i.e, you lose sense of time and place.  PV and Pac Dunes did this to me.   You're lost in the moment and the time spent in between golf becomes so important to the experience in a positive way.

Conversely,  if the architecture is less stirring,  then empty space is just down time.  That's why green to tee transitions being very short mean so much to me.  There's not many golf courses that can make me forget about it.

[Tom_Doak]

Ah, well, now you're onto the stuff that I think about a lot.

It's not just short green-to-tee walks; it's about outside interferences, positive and negative. 

1.  Having to walk across or down a cart path is an instant buzzkill which will get your mind off of golf and nature.

2.  One benefit of centerline hazards or cross hazards is that you have to walk around them, which makes you take them into account even if they didn't threaten your tee shot very much.  The same can be true just for a pinch point in the fairway due to contours or grassing lines -- Mike Strantz was great at those.

3.  One reason most people cannot stand to play without their buddies is that there is a lot of down time in most courses and nothing to suck it up.  It makes them feel lonely, unless the golf course is good enough to command their attention.

4.  This is one of the reasons I hate it when somebody wants to publish 100 pictures of my courses before anyone has even played them.  I am hopeful that the golf course will fill up their in-between moments, and not some premature anticipation of what the golf hole is going to be ... I want to reveal things on my own schedule.  Sometimes that means giving people a sneak peek at something -- my all time favorite is when you get to the 3rd green at Pacific Dunes and you see the ocean, and then you see the 13th hole, and then you find out that's not your next hole, and then you walk down to the fourth tee and get a load of THAT.

[Ben Sims]

Ah, well, now you're onto the stuff that I think about a lot.

It's not just short green-to-tee walks; it's about outside interferences, positive and negative. 

1.  Having to walk across or down a cart path is an instant buzzkill which will get your mind off of golf and nature.

2.  One benefit of centerline hazards or cross hazards is that you have to walk around them, which makes you take them into account even if they didn't threaten your tee shot very much.  The same can be true just for a pinch point in the fairway due to contours or grassing lines -- Mike Strantz was great at those.

3.  One reason most people cannot stand to play without their buddies is that there is a lot of down time in most courses and nothing to suck it up.  It makes them feel lonely, unless the golf course is good enough to command their attention.

4.  This is one of the reasons I hate it when somebody wants to publish 100 pictures of my courses before anyone has even played them.  I am hopeful that the golf course will fill up their in-between moments, and not some premature anticipation of what the golf hole is going to be ... I want to reveal things on my own schedule.  Sometimes that means giving people a sneak peek at something -- my all time favorite is when you get to the 3rd green at Pacific Dunes and you see the ocean, and then you see the 13th hole, and then you find out that's not your next hole, and then you walk down to the fourth tee and get a load of THAT.

If you're wondering, now is the time to rub your hands together and quietly mumble in an evil voice, "yes, yes...mwuhahahah" 

[Mike_Young]

Ben,
This thread makes me think of the Dave Mathews song....
Anyway...is Pebble Beach a good example of what you are trying to say....some good, some average architecture with sensory overload between?

[Tom_Doak]

Nah, not my style.

But, the reason these in-between experiences are so much a part of my courses is that I spend so much of my time on site during construction having exactly those kinds of thoughts and experiences.  I am just wandering between holes and looking at stuff while Eric or Brian is re-doing a green, so I am going to notice the other stuff.  There is no way you would ever see or anticipate any of this stuff while working on the plan in your office.

[David_Elvins]

The same is true of the walk from #4 to #5 at Barnbougle.  You are both elated at the prospect of changing wind directions, and reminded of the qualities of #4, unless you've lost a ball to the left of the #*!&^ green as I did on my last visit.

I would question how anyone could think about anything to do with golf on the walk from the 4th to the 5th at Barnbougle.   Particularly on their first visit. 

[Peter Pallotta]

The one great course I've played, Crystal Downs, has a kind of transitional magic. A big expansive and friendly downhill tee shot to start, to a green that tilts and undulates; and then onto No. #2 and an uphill second - but with a green that (you can't believe how much) tilts from back to front; and as you're mumbling about downhills and uphills and greens that you can putt off there is a relatively short Par 3 that is more about wind than anything else -- a jamble and jumble of emotions and thoughts and you still haven't gotten to any big choices or complicated decisions, which, suddenly come up there at No. #5.  That's what's happening in the 'empty space', i.e. the thoughts of an invisible architecture.

Peter

[Sean_A]

Just thinking out loud.

The importance of what happens in between the architecture.  What thoughts/experiences occur in the spaces from one golf hole to another, e.g. from the approach shot on #7 to standing on the tee at #8. How design can best engender/shape the invisible architecture of the mind -- expectations, surprises, memories, and regrets.

Peter

Pietro

I have always liked a sneak look at something of the next tee and perhaps what is revealed of the shot.  One of my favourites of this sort is a tee backing the green.  Before I get to the transition it usually makes me wonder how the tee effects the green and thus the approach.  In a way, its sort of like a style of continuous architecture whereby the transition is golf.  Here are a few examples:






And sometimes it just makes me wonder wtf?


Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

Peter,

Does the Routing of Highlands Links perhaps achieve something special because of this?

When Stanley surveyed the property on foot, he must have recognized how unique each area of the golf course was going to be. After he had finalized his routing, whether intended or intuitive, he made a decision of shear genius. He separated each unique area with a long walk . So why was this important? This makes the course unfold like a series, each section (or set of holes) having its own unique story. When combined together it makes for wonderful journey through the local landscape.

The first six holes are routed along the rolling land of the headland, which originally had ocean views on all six holes.  After the sixth green, Stanley takes you inland on a long walk to relax and enjoy the river valley as you enter the forested highlands (first change of pace and setting). The trees and mountains now dominate the setting of the course, and the player has to adjust to a more secluded and intimate setting. The holes are now fully framed by trees and mountains, with the tee shot on the 7th being intentional tight and tough to offer a complete contrast to the previous holes. Stanley does a wonderful job of creating an exciting stretch of holes through this tough terrain. This stretch continues through to the tenth green.

Once again a change of scenery started with a walk over the old swinging bridge (now unfortunately gone) and along the magnificent Clyde Brook. The 11th and 12th were once wide open, flat and fairly straightforward. This gentle stretch of land and golf was made to act as a breather in the middle of the round before taking on the tougher stretch to follow. I love how the old photos show the river was intended to be visible from both holes. I found out the river was to be the focus of the two holes but they ran out of money to pay for the bridge crossing that was required. The walk from 12 green to the 13th tee is the prettiest walk in golf (another great transition to a new setting) again along the river and up to the 13th tee.

At the thirteenth hole, Stanley returns the player to very rolling land with views out to the ocean. While the holes are much tougher, experiencing a view of the ocean make them inspiring. The highlight of the round is probably the dramatic 15th that tumbles wildly down towards the ocean in the background. Once again the golfers experience another wonderful walk, this one by the church, to the final set of holes.

Holes 16 to 18 do not have a view to the ocean. The final stretch is a return to the darker evergreens similar to the opening holes, here Stanley had designed a series of friendlier holes to give players an opportunity to make a par. Stanley was always cognizant of resort play and making the courses enjoyable for the average player. I think he felt after such a long journey, making a par in the final stretch would be a great way to finish the round.

And once you finish the view of the ocean opens up from the final green on both sides.

[Mac Plumart]

There has been a lot of credit given on this thread for design ideas that were at best, afterthoughts, and in some cases never thought of at all.

Tom D...I thought this was an interesting comment, but one where maybe people having differing opinions.  As a golfer, and not an architect, I couldn't care less if an architect intended for something to be there and/or happen.  In the end, the course is what it is and features are what they are.  If something wonderful happened by complete accident, that is fine by me.  So, if that 16 to 17 transition at TPC Sawgrass is a complete lucky fluke...great.  It is pretty amazing regardless of how it ended up being there.

Ian...I've heard similiar things about Highland Links.  I need to get up there and check it out.

[Tim Nugent]

I think this is one of the reasons The Dunes Club is so endearing.  Although just  9-holes on a compact piece of property, there is a little journey from one hole to the next.  Then the golf hole opens up to you.  After 9, you'ld swear the property was much bigger and be hard pressed to tell anybody what time it was. Much like the effect you get when you arrive at the chainlink gate and someone tells you "that's the entrance". 
Caladonia envokes the same feelings.  Upon reflection, probably the reason I like it so much.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ian - thanks much for that post. And yes, as Mac says above, for me as a golfer (as opposed to a poster on gca.com) it makes little difference whether the choices were intended or intuitive -- in the end the features (and my experience of them) are what they are.  Btw, I could only wish to some day know even one subject as well as you know Highland Links.  You're like the JRR Tolkien of Thompson architecture!

Peter

[Rob Bice]

Thanks.  More just thinking out loud:

A good golf hole, even an exceptional one, is in-and-out-itself fairly simple, i.e. there is not much complexity in/about it. So where does the magic of the truly great courses come from, the subtle resonances and interesting depths?  Wherein lies the Transcendent?

Read this:

Summer grasses,
all that remains
of soldiers' dreams

Peter  

Fantastic second, third, fourth, fifth (sorry lost count) idea/question in this thread.

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced…but I know it when I see it…" - Potter Stewart

So many variables to take into account that it is beyond a simple explanation but you know it when you see it.  Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but the transcendat courses are way beyond collections of great holes.  It is how the holes fit together in the routing, the variety and changing challenges, use of natural hazards, etc.

One example from one of my favorite courses is how it challenges you from the tee on successive holes - 6, 7 and 8.

6 - ~390 yard par 4.  Partial cross bunker 200 yards off the tee followed by a partial cross bunker ~280 yards off the tee.  Enough fairway to the left of the second cross bunker to challenge the player to hit a driver with a slight draw but most obviously screams for a three wood or rescue club to the right in front of the second cross bunker.

7 - ~520 yard par 5.  Reachable in two from the right side of the fairway, you will be blocked out if the drive is too far left.  Drive favors a fade with bunkers protecting short right drive and long left drive.

8 - ~440 yard 4, probably the toughest hole on the course.  OB right and partial cross bunker ~240 yards from the tee guarding the left side of the fiarway.  Ideal drive is a slight draw over the right corner of the bunker which leads to a slight speed slot in the fairway.

The three holes are very good but taken in succession are great, IMO.  I am already thinking about the drive on 8 before I've even teed off on 7 - and when I get to the 8 tee I am trying to forget my left to right swing thought from the prior hole.

[Mac Plumart]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but the transcendat courses are way beyond collections of great holes

Rob, yes that is obvious...but it needs to be said again and again...at least in my opinion.  Thanks for bringing it up.

And, again, I think you are correct that the routing is a major factor in a course being great...perhaps THE factor.  But a reason why I really like this thread is that it made me stop and think about the core concepts of golf architecture just a little bit different and/or deeper than I do normally. 

Ben's comment about the transitions from hole to hole, ideally, being a little longer when finishing up a great hole...to let the memories of the hole last just a bit longer...is a fantastic idea.  That takes the entire idea of routing and hole to hole transitions to a whole new level for me. 

And maybe that is just it, the transcendant course is a collection of great holes which are pieced together through a wonderful routing that takes advantage of the lands natural features.  BUT it also has the minute little details in place that perhaps very few notice and even fewer consciously notice.  However, regardless of whether you recognize them consciously they make up that intangible feeling of greatness that you can't quite put your finger on.

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