Honoring Billy Bell Jr.--Torrey Pines South

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm constantly reminded myself on the way down to Torrey Pines yesterday, Rees Jones comment, that he was a great fan of Billy Bell Jr's work. This is exactly why Torrey Pines needed their fix in hopes of attacting the greatest open championship of Golf in America.

First, let me get the some Rees bashing out of the way--It's what I'm best at.

Paying homage to Billy Bell Jr. is sort of like a vote for mediocrity. Not that he wasn't a successful architect. He certainly did his lions share here in California and abroad, but it was very mediocre work. Nothing worthy of note and basically a far cry from anything his much more creative father ever did on his own, who himself was a "second-tier" architect without the names of Thomas or Tillinghast on the letterhead.

I'm more akin to think that paticular statement from Rees was pure political drivel in the sense of creating a press release or to suffice the money that the folks from the Century Club or other outside sources invested in hopes of creating a newer, more sleeker Torrey Pines that really is trying to be Pebble Beach of Southern California. "The Great Billy Bell" so to speak.

Upon entering the Torrey Pines parking lot and seeing the ongoing construction of twhat is the glamorous "Lodge At Torrey Pines." It truely will be a classy destination for those who want to spend the money. All of this is being done with the high hopes of attracting the US Open Championship of 2008.

I say to the USGA folks who decide this stuff and who'll be meeting in Colorado this weekend--Give it to them! This is an effort that seems to have nothing but the best of intentions, and I think the course's rating of 78.1 at over 7600 yards length is a perfect way of prolonging the inevitable battle between the governing body of the game--The USGA; and the manufacturers--Led now by Nike Golf and Titliest. Such length is not only rasing the bar on how all courses will be built in the future, but will also increase the expense of the game and rid ourselves of such unknowing people also known as the Golfing Public, who don't have nothing better to do then hang around golf architecture websites.

Riviera is nothing more then a patsy, to use as a bargining chip for the USGA in the negotiations with Torrey Pines.

Now on to the course.

Rees has done a very admirable job of taking something that was very mediocre and "synthesized" it to professional playing standards. The bunker work is the best Rees work I have seen to date, but I'm not crazy about it.

For those who have visited Torrey Pines and know the South Course, this REMODEL can best be described as pushing the tees back as far as he could get them; accentuated existing fairway bunker sites by reshaping them and creating a sort of "containment" bunkering style.

But the real point of this remodel was the lack of character around and on the greens. From my viewpoint, Rees has built up the greens and surrounding areas, inserted some interesting contours, at least better then what existed before (With the exception of #10 which should have remained true to the existing green with minor refinement)

These complexes have been more or less elevated or raised and all of the trouble or where the course will gets its teeth is on or around the greens. It places an importance of being on the putting surface and anything less then that is looking at a very different shot then ever played or witnessed at Torrey Pines before.

My favorite changes:
The 3rd is now a sort of downhill Redan-themed where he removed the right greenside bunkers and created sloped-fairway and allows the ball to kick on to the slightly sloped green. A shallow and sort of greenwide bunker now protects the front, and while the best players int he game can and will go for the flag on this hole, it is going to be an awefully long and tricky, high shot from 195 yards.


The 4th and the earthmovement that took place on the right side of the hole 80 yards from the green--in, where it has directed the hole to play slightly more to the ocean and the movement can turn the ball towards the right side opening


The 14th which seems like the only hole that plays significantly closer to the edge of the many famed crevases around Torrey Pines. While their certainly could have been a better deceptive tie-in with the fairway and greenside bunkers, its far and away a better hole then it was before.


The 18th is now a par 5 of adequate length for a finishing hole. (Given today's ridiculous equimpment)

Devlin's Billabong is now a blind water hazard (Short left side)

The Worst Changes-

Loss of the pretty good 10th green.

The most painful, the green front bunkering on the once great par 5, 13th which not only wreeks of Rees Jones, but ruins the entire hole. It is so disjointingly out of place with the rest of the course, I'm thinking of taking donations from all of you to pay the Century Club to have them fill three or four of them in.

Sorry for the glare, the picture was taken almost directly into the sun!

So there you have it--length, enhanced fairway and green-side hazards on putting surfaces that will prove the best player in the United States on a beautiful Father's Day weekend in June 2008. The course should make the most obvious of Golf Digest Panelist's happy because of length, difficulty, and home architect bias. AHHHHHHHCHHHOOOMMMMAAATTTTWWWAAARRDDD!!! (excuse me.)

[SPDB]

Tommy, good photojournalism once again.
that picture of the 10th just made me wretch. But i can't help an uneasy feeling that if this were the work of a classic architect, we would might be lauding it as clever "stairstepping."

Wait, scratch that,  I just looked again. those bunkers are ridiculous. Did you say Desmond Muirhead did the redesign  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tommy,
   The last picture of #13 is as ulgy a greensite as Rees can do. It's about as "Rees" as #13 at Atlanta Athletic Club....yawn....

SPDB...I think that Bob Cupp might have been trying to talk Muirhead into some geometric stlyes like in Hilton Head!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
As the "Nysse-est" Kid in bunker making has pointed out, this Rees-sourceful picture is of the 13th.

To also correct you further, if it was Desmond's, it would have been undoubtedly inspired by a previous life experience from a sewage treatment plant that was being attacked by a Viking hoard.

However, this is the only "over-the-top" stuff that Rees instituted here. The effort was worthy, but still falls far from what is actually "Great."

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy,

Great report!

It looks like a real mixed-bag.  Just when I see something pretty good like the second picture, I gag at the "Golden Horseshoe" squiggly line now fronting the third green.  

Then the 4th greensite looks pretty cool, but then I wonder why that ugly fairway bunker on the 14th is blocking balls from finding the lateral hazard on that side.  

18 then looks pretty reasonable, and then for the coup de grace you whack us all with the 13th, which may now be the fugliest greensite on the planet.  

Perhaps there is nothing to this argument for "naturalness", as Rich Goodale and others suggest, but God couldn't have created THAT on his worst day.  

[redanman (Guest)]

Considering how blah the south was the improvement is quite good.  Some of the pics almost look a little too clean and of course 13 greensite is unbelievable! In a class by itself as a whipping boy! sheeesh!

Overall. methinks we have a good level of improvement here, IF I may be so bold as to comment on pixels alone.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Great stuff, Tommy.  Doens't look all that bad.  Never been there--is ther still a great course on that land waiting to be discovered?

Mike C

"And God created Adam and Adam's rib created Eve and Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel and a lot of begetting and begatting went on for millennia and then ....................................................... Robert Trent Jones begat Rees and Rees begat the revised 13th hole at Torrey Pines, and God was not pleased........."

[RJ_Daley]

How much longer if any does the 13th play now?  I would like to see pics from the tee and the pro landing area for the go or no go second shot.   It is rather contrived and pounded into a tricked up strategic format from the third shot view that your pic shows.  It isn't a good look at all.  I liked the 13th as it was for my tastes with the triangle shaped green and original surrounds.  But I realise, it wasn't that much of a test for the pros.  

Can you say what the county resident and non-resident fees will be after remodelling?  It still might be one of the best deals in municiple golf, I hope...

[RJ_Daley]

Hey, weren't some of the scenes from the video by Jake Trout and the Flounders filmed there at Torrey?    

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dick,
No idea on the green fees as of yet. Just before I left, the very first tee-off on the new improved South occured, and I'm sad to say that the person who was identified to me as the most major investor (the city wasn't doing it all I'm told.) pulled a shot very severly left on to #6. He then was given something that was called a "Mulligan" which I'm told is the same as a "Do-over" and he promptly sliced that one right. So it would seem that the course is also going to be a tough driving one at least as far as this investor is concerned.

The 13th seems to be of some added length, how much I'll have to tell you later when I can compare it to an older scorecard.

Make no mistake about it, all of the work is a drastic improvement, it's just that the 13th is similar to the 18th at Bethpage Black in regards to an architect leaving his mark on another architects work. Consider the Par 3, 8th one of these also, (I didn't get a picture of it) where it also features a shamrock-shaped bunker fronting a good looking green complex that could have been a boomerang if wanted, with the same hideous round bunker in the back as the 13th.

I'll call this the best work I have seen of Rees's to date, but that isn't saying much, and I haven't seen a whole lot of it--thankfully.

And I'm serious that if it is between Riviera and Torrey Pines, it should go to Torrey Pines.

[Matt_Ward]

TommyN:

Thanks for the plug!

Enjoyed your commentary and judging "just" from pictures (let the bashing begin!) the 13th does look terribly out of place and a bit weird.

Tommy, just for curiousity -- what # on the Doak scale do you give Torrey South prior to Rees and after Rees?

I'm with redanman -- any improvement is a definite plus to a course that really failed to use the superb terrain that it has. I've played Torrey about 3-4 times in the last 20 years and always thought it could be so much more. Will be interesting to see how the pros react / fare when they tee it up in the next few weeks?

If the green sites have been improved as you say Tommy that will be a real plus because from my times at the course the element of recovery was never really tremendously hard unless you shortsided yourself on a few holes.

Do you think the added length at #18 will prevent nearly all (minus Phil / Tiger / Duval) from going for it in two?

I'm heading out to California in about three months or so and will venture to play the course when I'm in Diego.

Tommy -- don't assume that increased length / difficulty will sway me. Maybe we can tee it up when I'm in town!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Tommy
Very interesting. I hope this might put to rest the common complaint that you are not objective - that was a very unbiased and enlightening review.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
I was hoping not to have to publicly display my Doak number but will do it on sight since I didn't actually play the course--A "5"

But I urge all not to be swayed by that number either. I think it is ultimately a good number, and hopefully a number that could be built upon once the course further matures and TRUE pin placements are found and utilized.

Right now the course seems to be very much gauged at being a very extreme test, and I'm not saying that this is because of difficulty as much as it is a prescribed length for this ridiculous equimpment. Throw in some tough green side bunkering and as you have noticed, much more difficult recoveries and you have a course that can test some really good players. But, in my opinion test isn't always the making of a GREAT golf course or enjoyable "tour" (ala the Valley Club)
I think GREAT golf lies in deception, laughing out loud to yourself how it either fooled you or caught it, understood how the ball rolls to the hole from any given spot on a putting surface no matter the severity of the contour; thrill seeking shotmaking over hazards (sand or other natural ones) that instill a fear in you that it is a decision (and not a life-making one thankfully) made by you, and that youhave to live with it, no matter how severe the rub of the green. (Hopefull a lot of that because it is all a matter of blind luck and joy)

I think that the new Torrey Pines will do this for the good golfer. And just like the past, the higher handicapper will continue to want to play that paticular course then the other simply because its where TV captures it all for those who will eventually visit there. My sincerest hopes is that Rees will do a much better job for the North course, which is still a better routing, still a tad bit more strategic and is basically a "Tour" of some pretty spectacular property. Especially when it is played near sunset and a brisk breeze is influencing the experience. After all it is that "Experience" itself what so many golfers are in search for. I think the North course is where they will find it. That is if you are doing this out of a golf cart and on foot, the way Torrey Pines is meant to be played.

[RJ_Daley]

Of course we have to stop yammering about the new Torrey Pines that has 7500 yard tips and aimed at the tournament players.  We really should be focusing on the set of tees that are about 65-6600 yards where the majority of the golfing public should be playing from.  Hopefully the new features are well set up and can be properly maintained for the all year long onslaught of high handicap players who tend to wear a course out.  After all, it is still a municipal course and needs to serve the public everyday, including proper size teeing ground for the mid tees, and greens surrounds that aren't kept 4 inches, etc.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dick, that would be the way to look at it, but when you have 90% of the golfers playing the South trying to compare where they were on the course, to the greatest players in the game....... that has been one of the main problems with Torrey Pines all along--Slow play, because of those reasons.

There really isn't too much of a policing going on at Torrey Pines. those fortunate to finish 18 holes around this time of year would have to tee off around 12:00pm and no later. It's unplayable there around 5:30 and even then it is going to be like the Death March of Bataan, they put so many players out on the course. San Diego as you know is sort of a "Kickback" type community, as in everything is a "no problem" attitude. (up until the point they start building baseball stadiums) the point is that they don't care if it takes 5 1/2 hours to play 18 holes because simply put, they are in the outdoors, where all San Diegans like to be, all of the time.

Call it a North County attitude if you will, because North County San Diego is where it is all happening, and for those who haven't been fortunate to stay in that area, it is collection of old hippie towns like Carlsbad, Leucadia, Encinitas, Solona Beach, & Pacific Beach and the ultra-exclusive ones such as Del Mar and La Jolla. Only the old hippie towns are now very refined with great restaurants, shops, etc.  Torrey Pines is their course, and even though they don't get the same treatment and favor as people that live with-in the city limits, it's in their territory, and if just like the surfers of the area, it's a territorial thing. (My beach, my waves)

And for those who would like to see what it is really all about, the thing most North County residents have at their disposal every night, 365 days of the year is the good fortune to see the sun set on Continental America. Certainly they have a right to that, which I do not blame them one bit.

For those of you in Green Bay that deserve the sun in your lives, sunset, January 30, 2002-Encinitas, California

[JohnV]

As one who played a lot of golf at TP back when I was going to UCSD, which is just 3 miles south, I can say that the changes look like an improvement in most cases (excluding 13.)  The course was always hard for the average player, now it will be even tougher.  I'll be interested to see which tees the tour uses next week.  It will also be interesting to see how the new TP compares to the new Riviera in back-to-back weeks.

I bet there will be some screaming if there is a good wind off the ocean.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

From the fairway, looking at the second shot which will be pretty stiff for the masses to reach in two, considering the risk. The original bunkering seemed to be placed before all of this so adding additional bunkers and slighty further out guards the right side.


The 16th-An improvement to a very bland hole.


A reverse view of the 13th showing the dramatics of the drop-off. Even with the horrible bunkering the architect still had the sense to leave a lot of this hole alone. It is truely one of the better holes at Torrey Pines.


The 11th which will play directly into the wind/breeze around 210 yards

[RJ_Daley]

Tommy, never a doubt about you!  I just knew you'd have that critical 13th right side rough next to the LZ view for us!    It is strictly design for tournament golf to be knocked over the head and into the ground, regardless of what might look more natural.

About the 11th, It looks like the same green and tiers with slightly jazzed up right side bunker, just a more busy left side, is that about right?

Hey, in this case the remodelling isn't about desecrating a masterpiece, it is about designing a tougher course to fit todays game.  As for the art of GCA, I'm able to hold my nose at the sight of the 13th and kick back and watch the big boys play it.  I just hope they have a few tees I can play from :-/

P.S. with the big winter storm finally upon us, that sunset is looking very good.  

[PeteL]

The current fee structure at Torrey Pines is as follows: City residents: South course: $40 weekdays, $45 weekends, North Course: $29 weekdays, $34 weekends, County residents: South course: $65 weekdays, $80 weekends, North course: $50 weekdays, $60 weekends, non-residents: South course: $85 weekdays, $105 weekends, North course: $65 weekdays, $75 weekends. The story behind the redesign and fee hikes is quite an interesting saga. Last year the PGA Tour gave the greens the lowest possible rating in their annual feedback questionaire.  During the City Amatuer Championship in June the greens on the South course were in very poor condition (although it appeared to me that they raised the mower height to help preserve them and a good haircut would have made them playable). The North's were better than the South, but still not up to normal standards. The City announced that it would completely redo the greens at both courses at a cost of $900K. The Century Club then offered to give the City $3 million to completely redesign the South course with the stipulation that the City give them back the $900K that they had planned to spend, interest free, with no time limit. Sweet deal! No formal anouncement has been made as to what will be done to improve the condition of the North course's greens. The City also commisioned Price, Waterhouse, Cooper to perform a study as to how milk, excuse me, maximize the income that the two golf courses provide to the City's general fund (notice the profits do not go into the golf fund to either improve the City courses or help lower the rates for residents). Interestingly one of the reports recommendations was the mandatory use of carts on the South course when it reopens to the tourists, excuse me, the public. This raised quite a furror and some San Diego residents actually came in from the out of doors to protest this policy at the annual Golf planning meeting. The City back pedddled on this issue and agreed that walking should still be an option at both courses. Their postion on the use of the golf courses has always been clear; they are here to draw tourists to our fine City and maximize revenues (tourists pay considerably more than residents). This point has been driven home on numerous occasions as the City planners have refused to outlaw tee time bandits, excuse me, brokers, who by shear numbers, flood the computer operated tee time reservation system, grab all the times, and then sell the times to tourists for the tidy sum of $20/player. Interestingly City residents could play either course on the weekend for less than $30 before the recent rate hikes, if they could get a starting time. The rate for the South course was almost doubled when City Golf Operations manager Jim Allen proclaimed that we now have a "good course" (North) and a "great course" (South). He indicated that the new maintainence practices that would be necessary on the revised South course would mean that it would cost the City $44/round to maintain?  I guess it will take more time to rake all those new bunkers! I'm glad that the powers that be in NY took the high road and did not take their gift from the USGA and use it to extort higher green fees from the players at Bethpage Black!

[BillV]

#13 looks exactly the same from behind, thank god.  Those bunkers really are amazing. Simply amazing.  They probably were meant to frighten the player reminding him or her of rows and rows of shark's teeth.

Tommy

did Des consult on the re-do?  

[Mike_Cirba]

shivas,

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT point!

In the past, I've seen "saving" bunkers that were used to prevent balls from finding worse trouble.  (See picture above of #14 fairway bunkers for an example)  

But, as you point out, we now see bunkers used as "enablers", to facilitate low scoring.  Imagine a US Open there, and that the green is barely reachable in two.  

How many guys would be screaming, "get in the bunker!!!", as opposed to landing in US Open rough??

A hazard as an "assist".  Barf.

[Matt_Ward]

Petel:

Great comments on the pricing justification   scheme at Torrey. I always like when people explain "why" the hand must take even more $$ from your pocket.

Keep in mind there are many skeptics in the NY metro area regarding how fees will be maintained (?) at Bethpage Black following the Open this June.

I don't mind slight increases, but you have the same mindset that exists at the upscale facilities now taking hold at taxpayer owned facilities. It's clearly an issue to watch.

[RJ_Daley]

I see your points Mike, and I think it applies to the two greenside bunkers in the series of 5 that are ramped up to that green.  But I'm curious what the yardage for a second will be on the redesign.  Rees moved the green back some, didn't he?


I spent quite a bit of time at the second shot of the par 5 14th at Medinah listenening all day to guys pleading for the ball to get in one of those front bunkers.  But, in this particular instance the 3 bunkers below the greenside bunkers are well below and long distance from where an up and down sandy would yield the expected birdie.  That is a pretty steep hill as I remember it.  Layups to the bottom of the hill are slim margin from the down hill to the transition up hill, and leave a shot that still has to be long enough to clear the nest of bunkers up the hill and not go too long to the back bunker.  Apart from the design aesthetics of what Rees did here, I think the jury is out on how the pros will deal with this hole.  If the hill up to green were not so high and steep, it would be more like Medinah 14, and a birdie assistant as you descibe.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pete L,
Thanks for the addition of green fees there.

Given the history of modern San Diego politics, no doubt aided by Pete Wilson, all that you mention doesn't surprize me one bit.

Do you know any stuff about the ballpark? I would be very interested to hear also!

From what I have been reading it is a political mess with all sorts of accusations of bribes and kick backs. It doesn't surprize me one bit that the Torrey Pines remodel was all part of it.

[RJ_Daley]

Might as well bring this Torrey thread back to the top now...

Obviously the south course is playing several shots harder.  But in a quick look, I noted that the new 13th still was birdied by a large percentage of the players.  I didn't find what the scoring average was on that hole, but all the bunkering hasn't slowed up most of the leaders, as many of them birdied it.  

The usual suspects of long ball hitters are not making a very impressive showing on the south course.  Those not known for the long ball are doing as well on new south course as the long fellows.