[Tim Gavrich]

I don't know how much this question bears on the discussion, but this seems like a place to throw it out there.

My family used to be members of a club in CT.  The last couple years we were members, my father priced it out and declared that we'd been paying about $250 per round of golf played at the club.  So, I wonder, does the entrenched financial model for many private clubs take into account or even require a certain number of members who greatly under-use the club?  I can't quantify the point at which one ceases to under-use one's golf/country club, but in the abstract, does this seem to be the case?

[Ben Sims]

I think you've got to be very, very good at managing the club if this is to work.  And frankly, there are some intangibles that you must foster for this to work.  

1)  Your membership MUST buy in to the idea and the experience.  People that are coming in "for a good deal" are only as good--as Mr. Mucci says--until a problem arises that requires members' financial help.  A $2,000 maintenance assessment because of a very hot summer?   Poof!  You just lost a few members.  

2)  An air of exclusivity and specialness must be left to slowly spread around the area.  You CAN'T shotgun advertise a place like this in magazines and the Atl Journal-Constitution and get the type of members you need to make it special.  But handle the whole thing quietly, and get a couple nonchalant yet high profile members that come to XYZ Golf Club to relax and play "pure" golf, and then it will spread how special your place is.  

Invest heavily in the right maintenance conditions, treat EVERYONE like family, and never get too big for your britches, and this kind of idea can work.  Once you've fostered a culture in both your membership and publicly of a no frills, "special" step back in time, then you can sell extra tee times on Tuesdays and Thursdays for 100 bucks a head, like they do in the UK.

[Duncan Cheslett]

As a Brit, I am stunned by some of the figures being bandied about here. $500 pm is cheap?

The average golf club with a quality course in my part of England charges ANNUAL fees of around £850 - £1000. That's maybe $1200 - $1600. For this you get as much golf as you want, normally without having to book a tee-time, and access to a clubhouse with locker-room and bar. The normal arrangement is for the club to make the profit on the bar and for the food business to be run by a self-employed steward.

Initiation fees have largely disappeared at all but the swankiest clubs - which may also charge annual fees as high as £1400 ($2000)!

Of course, this relatively low-cost golf model is possible only because most clubs have been around for the best part of 100 years - if not more - so the costs of buying the land and building the course have been long covered. Only maintenance and routine upgrading has to be paid out of revenue. Also of course, as private members clubs there are no shareholders seeking profits.

Why then. would this model not work in the US? It seems to me from reading these pages that plenty of golf courses are on the verge of bankruptcy, and that many local municipals are under threat. Could a group of local players not buy such a place at a fire-sale price and set up an old fashioned members golf club without any fancy add-ons?

Or do the likes of Mr Trump just snap everything up?

[Sean_A]

Chris

Its not a bad model, but I do have to wonder if an initiation fee isn't warranted.  While I have never personally experienced problems getting times at clubs with twice as many members, this issue of no tee times does seem to worry people.  Perhaps crunch time tee times in place with every third or fourth slot at those times open for walk in play is a compromise? 

Duncan

Most US clubs are far from lean and mean because thats how the members like it.  So maintenance costs are higher.  Most US clubs have better service in the house becasue thats how the members like it.  That drives up costs.  Most US clubs don't want riff raff visitors through their doors because thats how the members like it.  So this drives up costs.  Once these three key elements are addressed at most US clubs then we can begin to talk about reasonably priced memberships.  Until then, a huge section of possible members won't consider private membership.  I can only than my lucky stars that as an addict, I found the land of plenty.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

The American model defies gravity, $500 per month would kill golf if it came to the UK, we are lucky. The UK model works because many clubs dont have huge irrigatition costs and we can maintain courses with 4 or 5 staff, get a pro, secretary, couple in the clubhouse..... Staff are the biggest costs.... ONE MORE MEMBER OF STAFF can put £50 on an annual membership.

Its hard for the USA model to be as lean as ours, however I have seen some $50 courses that far exceed a $50 UK one.

No initiation fee means easy in easy out, you will leak members like the titanic.

350 members is not enough, I think you could double that. Another possibility is to keep prime time for your members and allow play in the lesser periods, but that moves away from the USA way and as Sean says, in come the 'riff raff'.

The fast food cheapy thing is probably not what a $500 per monther wants, but you could up the anti a bit and do steaks and quality grills charge reasonable, you are right with your limited times but if your charging $4 for a burger some will want a steak at $15.

[Doug Siebert]

Rather than an initiation fee, but still allowing for golfers to become invested in the club somewhat, how about requiring payment up front (or commitment of payment up front) for say 3-5 years?  You can get a small discount by paying for it all up front, otherwise you sign a contract that obligates you to the monthly payments just like a cell phone contract (and perhaps offers a way to get out for an early termination fee, like a cell phone contract)  That way it isn't a month-to-month thing where you can just leave the club on a whim, knowing it'll still be there ready to take your money next year.

I think with the job situation these days people are leery about making long term commitments to a particular area.  Even those who can easily find another job if laid off may make the task much more difficult if they restrict their search to the same area where they currently live.  Being able to pick up and move to another area more easily is a big advantage in a bad economy (as those who are tied down in underwater mortgages have been learning the past couple years)

[Adrian_Stiff]

Doug I think you just answered your question with your second paragraph really.

Its not easy in these times, I dont think many want to sign for 3-5 years. We allow payments of the annual membership monthly and say 25-30 dump us part year, we got their signature for a year but in reality its not worth the chase and hassle to take them to court, if we did and won, its all bad press and a reason why another might not sign up. No nice solution to this one, best we have done is to make it 10 payments not 12  so if they dump us they are a bit ahead with their payments.

Initiation fee could be reworked to say $6000 as the in, but its spread over 5 years (60 payments) a $100 add on in this climate is far more doable and at the end of 5 years they get their bond/note/share or whatever that is tradeable to a new member in a better climate.

The initiation fee is a big key to belonging to the club.

[Tom Birkert]

It sounds pretty similar to some of the UK club models to me.

Golf in America is expensive, especially to be a Member, compared to golf here.

With regards to no tee times, I think it's a good idea. It also encourages people to play quickly if there's a queue on the 1st! People tend to get used to what times are the busy times and when it's normally quiet.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Reading this thread just reminds me how fortunate we are in GB&I, Europe, etc. Those numbers are just astonishing!

If Americans want to see a club model works, then look no further than any of the large-medium clubs in GB&I, Europe, NZ, Aus., etc.
You need to focus on the golf and forget all the add-on bits. The expectations of US golfers seem to me to be totally unreasonable. Is a club like that described above focussed on golf or something else?

If I had to pay $500/month, I'd have to give up the game. How much of a disposable income does one need to be able to fork out $500/month. Would you need to be earning $200-k/year? If that is the case, then golf has totally lost its way in the US.

How does my club manage?
My annual fee is about €550 for a 27-hole course.
Entrance fee is about €1000 (non-refundable)
The club makes about €350-k in green fees per year.
Club have about 10-11 staff: 3 (2 Pros & 1 Pro Shop), 1 club manager, 1 admin. secretary, 5-6 course staff.
The green fee is €50 (€35-40 for guest playing with a member; no limit on how offten you have guests)
Lunch is €8 (optional: no obligation to spend a certain amount each month)
Competition fee $8
About 1000 members, with perhaps 150-200 Juniors.

[Mark Chaplin]

During a recent US visit the "cheapest" club I played at charged around $10k including monthlies and food spends but not the $25 a round for a caddie although $25 was actually $50-60 with a tip.....oh plus the shoe shine $5-10, caddie master $5-10 a couple of $$ here and there for the bar staff, etc.

The extras totted up each month over a year, without the membership fees, were more than we pay a year in the UK for membership at a good club.

I do not know the numbers but I liked the Black Sheep model of simple clubhouse, free food and minimal staff. The "free" food i.e. BBQ and snacks probably works out far, far cheaper than employing a chef, waitress, bottle washer, etc and charging for lunches.

[Adrian_Stiff]

With regards to no tee times, I think it's a good idea. It also encourages people to play quickly if there's a queue on the 1st! People tend to get used to what times are the busy times and when it's normally quiet.
[/quote] Tom I don't understand what the benifit of having no tee times are, certainly for a modern progressive club its chaos without them. Why not be able to book the comfort of your tee time, if you just turn up and theres a rack of folk, you have to queue and I have never met anyone (yet) that has queueing as a hobby! I think members know when its likely they can take a chance and pop up, but in busy times it seems ridiculous not to operate a tee times system. I don't know a club that has gone to a tee times system that has ever gone back to not having one and I cant think of a real disadvantage of having a tee times system, bit more admin for the pro but he gets customers in his shop so I'd rate that advantage.

[jeffwarne]

So we're all in agreement? (smiley emoticon here)

[Tim Bert]

I made one comment about the "no tee time" system before but I will pile on with another one. While money appears to be the overriding factor for many people today if there's a close second (and probably first for many) it is time. Why force a local member into a crapshoot when it comes to time?  A tee time allows for someone to approximately plan for their time at the club. The first come, first served model does not.

I think no tee times is the best thing goin for a national club with only a few hundred members and an unpopulated course, but for local courses unless you are going to have a very small membership I just don't see the value. Time is important, and it is why many are playing less or giving up the game today.

When I was 7, I had played exactly one season of baseball. My 7-yr old son has played 3 seasons of baseball, 2 seasons of basketball, 2 seasons of flag football, 2 seasons of soccer, and 1 season of swim team. My youngest is about to start this as well.  This is the norm for the golfing dad today, not the exception. I need a scheduled time to play local golf. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Norwood Hills in St. Louis has 700 active members and no tee times.  It works perfectly.  Tee times are for anti-social people who need to golf in a bubble.

[Roger Wolfe]

I really enjoy the talk regarding how initiation fees are absurd and don't exist anymore.

An initiation fee is a stock price... pure and simple.  It's part of a traditional supply and demand
curve.  Initiation fee is the Y axis.  Number of members (and therefore dues level) is the X axis.

You pick your operating level (golf conditions, clubhouse amenities) and set your necessary dues
contribution.  You divide the contribution by the number of members.  The more members you
have... the lower the dues per member.

If your fee is too high, and you are not replacing member who leave due to regular attrition
(relocation, death) with new members then you start sliding down the supply and demand curve.
Then you need to decide... can we raise dues or do we have to hit the initiation fee.  That opens
up an entirely different discussion.

Regardless, you charge as much as you can get away with and still operate the club.  If someone does
not want to pay it... so be it.  They can join somewhere else or pay a daily fee.  They choose their
operating level.  If you do not have the disposable income to be a part of an organization with people
who want higher operating levels... so be it.  The initiation fee of the club you join will determine that
operating level.

Its just like picking Motel 6 versus the Ritz Carlton.  Those are the two extremes... but there are a lot
of levels in between.

As to $500 per month and 350 members... generating 2.1 million just might work.  It would be interesting
to investigate the "operating level" that kind of revenue supports... after deducting ROI for the owner who built
the place and capital replacement requirements.

[Tom Birkert]

Tom I don't understand what the benifit of having no tee times are, certainly for a modern progressive club its chaos without them. Why not be able to book the comfort of your tee time, if you just turn up and theres a rack of folk, you have to queue and I have never met anyone (yet) that has queueing as a hobby! I think members know when its likely they can take a chance and pop up, but in busy times it seems ridiculous not to operate a tee times system. I don't know a club that has gone to a tee times system that has ever gone back to not having one and I cant think of a real disadvantage of having a tee times system, bit more admin for the pro but he gets customers in his shop so I'd rate that advantage.

I guess it's a tradition thing. I turn up, know that I'll be able to get away pretty quickly the vast majority of the time and play at a decent pace. I prefer the informality of turning up, rather than having to organise a time in advance and confirm that with playing partners etc. On the occasions that I don't have a game arranged, not having tee times makes it much easier to find a game as there are people milling around rather than turning up to fill their allotted time slot.

I think it makes the Members more sociable and also basically sets the pace of play / spacing of groups.

We have about 850 Members and I've never had to wait more than a few minutes to play. Having two courses helps, but the overwhelming majority of people play fourballs. Furthermore, the pace of play is always good as well. With no set tee times I think people are more likely to let others play through, as they wouldn't be losing their "slot" so to speak.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom I dont disagree with those points but you can do all those things AND HAVE TEE TIMES.... both can be catered for, what happens in reality is the busy times get filled and you get to know when you need to book , you know when you can pretty much roll up, but you can secure a spot if you want to, perhaps if you were bringing a guest.

The key thing is it keeps everyone happy, there really is no downside to having a start sheet

[Mark Pearce]

We have 700 members, plus a hundred juniors and only ever have tee times on competition days.  Never have a problem getting on the course.  I pay just under £1000pa to be a member (and £50 a head for each of my three boys) and that's the most expensive club in the city.

I know that membership at Silloth on Solway, a UK top 50 course, is £375 pa.

[jeffwarne]

I made one comment about the "no tee time" system before but I will pile on with another one. While money appears to be the overriding factor for many people today if there's a close second (and probably first for many) it is time. Why force a local member into a crapshoot when it comes to time?  A tee time allows for someone to approximately plan for their time at the club. The first come, first served model does not.

I think no tee times is the best thing goin for a national club with only a few hundred members and an unpopulated course, but for local courses unless you are going to have a very small membership I just don't see the value. Time is important, and it is why many are playing less or giving up the game today.

It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

[JMEvensky]

First, it's too inexpensive.

I like the idea of a simplistic, quality platform, in the golf, facility, service and food.

But, I don't think you can be successful catering to the lowest common denominator with a shoestring operation.

Pat,I think you're looking at it upside down.

Try looking at this idea from the perspective of someone who's never been a member at an equity club.Or,someone whose club has drifted from being golf-first to something more "social".

The initiation fee hook is dead or dying in a lot of places due to market forces.Granted,the capital calls will be difficult without members having skin in the game,but ,IMO,this is the new reality.A club on this model will be forced to have the members "buy in" in other ways.

I think the idea is great.A lot of public players would be able to move up to private for a little extra monthly outlay.The disaffected country club member would be able to stay a private club member with the bonus of having his dues go 100% toward golf rather than to support parts of a club which don't interest him.

[John Kavanaugh]

I made one comment about the "no tee time" system before but I will pile on with another one. While money appears to be the overriding factor for many people today if there's a close second (and probably first for many) it is time. Why force a local member into a crapshoot when it comes to time?  A tee time allows for someone to approximately plan for their time at the club. The first come, first served model does not.

I think no tee times is the best thing goin for a national club with only a few hundred members and an unpopulated course, but for local courses unless you are going to have a very small membership I just don't see the value. Time is important, and it is why many are playing less or giving up the game today.

It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

Having that many national members show up when there is not an event is a romantic fantasy.  Saying that many national members show up and are sober enough to tee off at 8 am is a flat out lie.

[Tom Birkert]

It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

3 guests on a weekend morning? I didn't realise that was allowed in the US, it's not at a lot of places in the UK.

1 guest per Member at the weekend is norm here.

[Tim Bert]

I made one comment about the "no tee time" system before but I will pile on with another one. While money appears to be the overriding factor for many people today if there's a close second (and probably first for many) it is time. Why force a local member into a crapshoot when it comes to time?  A tee time allows for someone to approximately plan for their time at the club. The first come, first served model does not.

I think no tee times is the best thing goin for a national club with only a few hundred members and an unpopulated course, but for local courses unless you are going to have a very small membership I just don't see the value. Time is important, and it is why many are playing less or giving up the game today.

It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

I've been on maybe 6 of these trips (let's call it 18 days) in my life and can only recall waiting an hour one of those days.  I was part of an unaccompanied foursome on that particular trip and was just fortunate to be there.  Also, time is a less valuable commodity to me on one of these trips than when at home because my entire day is going to be spent at the course anyway.  An hour delay isn't going to prevent me from playing 36 holes, or sometimes 54, because the crowd thins out significantly in the afternoon and evening.

Which national clubs have you visited and experienced the "predictable" hour long wait?

[Tim Bert]

It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

3 guests on a weekend morning? I didn't realise that was allowed in the US, it's not at a lot of places in the UK.

1 guest per Member at the weekend is norm here.

I don't think 3 guests on a weekend at a course where more than half the members are from out of town is all that unusual.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you are a member at a private club waiting a bit to tee off is possibly the finest time spent all week, you just talk to your friends, have some coffee or maybe even read the paper.  If you have to wait at a public club it is the purgatory of golf watching a parade of unknown faceless douche bags whose every physical nuance is magnified by the minute.

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